TFR Violations

PittsDriver said:
With cockpit door security and potentially armed deterrent onboard, and combined with all the other airport security now, I'm guessing they're less worried about another 9/11 style attack than something else. Clearly the ring wouldn't need to be 30 miles for something that travels as slow as I do so I'm just guessing that the size of the areas have to do with that nefarious Lear that points itself at some high value target from just outside the circle of trust.

And, if you really want to see how to do airport security well, visit Tel Aviv. It took a little extra time and was a total invasion of my personal privacy that would bristle the most laid back AFLCIO lawyer, but it certainly works. When I was there, every passenger was interrogated for about 5 - 10 minutes before clearing security. I was interrogated by a lovely young blue eyed blond girl that asked me every detail about my weeklong stay there - where we'd stayed, who's wedding we'd been to, what we saw when we visited the location of Jesus' sermon on the mount, etc...
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AFLCIO? I assume you mean ACLU.
 
Bob Noel said:
One key difference between B, C, D airspace, SUAs, and TFRs is that TFRs serve no actual purpose.
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Many if not most do serve a useful safety purpose -- they keep interlopers out of airshows, they keep newschoppers from interfering with rescue and law enforcement activities, etc, etc. Even some of the Security TFR's serve useful purposes, such as keeping aeronautical gawkers from pestering people whose only sin was to be living near the house someone who later became Vice President happened to buy. So, be careful of excessive generalities in this regard.
 
Ron Levy said:
Many if not most do serve a useful safety purpose -- they keep interlopers out of airshows, they keep newschoppers from interfering with rescue and law enforcement activities, etc, etc. Even some of the Security TFR's serve useful purposes, such as keeping aeronautical gawkers from pestering people whose only sin was to be living near the house someone who later became Vice President happened to buy. So, be careful of excessive generalities in this regard.
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Why is Dick Cheney so much more special than anyone else? Why is DC more important than New York or Chicago (or Duluth, or Peoria, or anywhere else?). We're supposed to all be equal under the law.
 
steingar said:
Why is Dick Cheney so much more special than anyone else?
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He isn't, any more. Now Joe Biden is as special as Dick Cheney was. In any event, if you can't understand why news helos might be rotoring around the VP's house or Chelsea Clinton's wedding, I can't help your understanding.
Why is DC more important than New York or Chicago (or Duluth, or Peoria, or anywhere else?).
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Again, if you can't figure that out, I can't help you.
We're supposed to all be equal under the law.
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Which law is that? Surely not the Equal Protection clause of the US Constitution, which has nothing to do with such matters.
 
Ron Levy said:
Since there has not been a successful terrorist air attack since the ADIZ and TFR's were cranked up, it is clear to the security folks that TFR's do work in the way in which they were intended.
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Do they actually believe that a line drawn on a piece of paper that means entry is prohibited is going to keep terrorists from crashing into a building inside that circle? If they believe that, then how do they explain why the no interference with flight crew, do not murder people, and no entering Class B without radio contact and transponder rules in this country prior to the NYC/DC attacks didn't stop the entire 9-11-01 thing from happening in the first place? It's just another rule tossed on top of the stack of paperwork.

The fantasy isn't us. It's the security people not having a grasp on reality if they actually believe that. Then again, they're lords of the land so we're stuck with their decisions even if we know they're pooping in the living room floor.
 
fgcason said:
Do they actually believe that a line drawn on a piece of paper that means entry is prohibited is going to keep terrorists from crashing into a building inside that circle?
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It's rather more than a line drawn on a piece of paper, but yes, I do believe that they believe that the layered security system they developed will accomplish that end.
 
Ron Levy said:
Many if not most do serve a useful safety purpose -- they keep interlopers out of airshows, they keep newschoppers from interfering with rescue and law enforcement activities, etc, etc. Even some of the Security TFR's serve useful purposes, such as keeping aeronautical gawkers from pestering people whose only sin was to be living near the house someone who later became Vice President happened to buy. So, be careful of excessive generalities in this regard.
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I guess you missed the last paragraph in my post (which you didn't quote).
 
Ron Levy said:
He isn't, any more. Now Joe Biden is as special as Dick Cheney was. In any event, if you can't understand why news helos might be rotoring around the VP's house or Chelsea Clinton's wedding, I can't help your understanding.
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So what? News helos circle the former vice president's house till they run out of gas. Comes with being vice president, just like the lucrative publishing contracts and lecture fees. They'd probably rather circle Brad Pitt or Paris Hilton. Should they have TFRs?

Apparently you think the rules should be different for the rich and the famous. I really don't care if helicopters inconvenience the former vice president and catch him spanking the monkey. The government shouldn't either. That they do is a gross misuse of power and taxpayer dollars. Dick Cheney, Bill Clinton, George Bush, and the rest are citizens under the law, and should not be above it. If a helicopter can circle my house, I cannot fathom why they should be prohibited from circling theirs.
 
steingar said:
<SNIP>Why is DC more important than New York or Chicago (or Duluth, or Peoria, or anywhere else?). We're supposed to all be equal under the law.
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Ron Levy said:
Again, if you can't figure that out, I can't help you.
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I don't understand why Ron doesn't get it. DC is less important than thos other places. New York and Chicago are more important because they have good pizza (even if Chicago should call theirs something else). New York has lots of other good things as well.

Washington has been burned once already. Didn't seem to hurt the country much.
 
My real worry is that Ron's mindset is the more typical for those in the FAA and aviation governance circles. I attended the FAA talk at Oshkosh one year, and one of the FAAers talked about how glad he was to be among "the little people". If Ron is typical, we can expect our freedoms to be eroded to nothing over time.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
Washington has been burned once already. Didn't seem to hurt the country much.
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And basically was shut down for a few days after 9/11. Again it did not affect services or management of the country.

Cap'n Jack said:
New York and Chicago are more important because they have good pizza (even if Chicago should call theirs something else). New York has lots of other good things as well.
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Chicago did consider changing the name of their pizza to the 'perfect ambrosia of cheese and sauce from the gods' but felt that by doing so Chicagoans would appear as pretentious as New Yorkers
 
TangoWhiskey said:
Fixing this is just a matter of training.
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We (the pilot community) are never going to be taken seriously on this topic as long as we continue to act like we don't know what we're doing. The sad fact is that our bottom of the barrel, pilots with the wrong stuff, keep painting us all with the incompetency brush. But the guy with his finger on the trigger can't distinguish between a terrorist pilot and one that's an idiot so we have buffers called TFRs of increasing frequency and size.
 
The ADIZ and TFRs would not have prevented the attacks of 9/11. A jet moving at 500 miles an hour could change course, penetrate the ADIZ and be on-target before airborne fighters could intercept, analyze the situation, get weapon release authorization, and shoot it down (over heavily populated areas!).

A single engine plane loaded with explosives could follow all the ADIZ / TFR rules and change course at the last minute, flying low with the transponder off. Chances of intercept are almost zero.

Liberty comes with risks. It's better to keep terrorists off our soil than try to foil their plans in progress.
 
Jack Spectre said:
The ADIZ and TFRs would not have prevented the attacks of 9/11. A jet moving at 500 miles an hour could change course, penetrate the ADIZ and be on-target before airborne fighters could intercept, analyze the situation, get weapon release authorization, and shoot it down (over heavily populated areas!).

A single engine plane loaded with explosives could follow all the ADIZ / TFR rules and change course at the last minute, flying low with the transponder off. Chances of intercept are almost zero.

Liberty comes with risks. It's better to keep terrorists off our soil than try to foil their plans in progress.
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ah, so the answer is to make the ADIZ bigger
 
Jack Spectre said:
A single engine plane loaded with explosives could follow all the ADIZ / TFR rules and change course at the last minute, flying low with the transponder off. Chances of intercept are almost zero.
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They've run a lot of tests with CAP 172's on that. They seemed satisfied with the results based on the two speed limit rings. Of course, if you really believe what you said, you may feel free to run your own test. BTW, they don't rely solely on transponder-based ATC radars for Air Defense purposes in the National Capitol region.
 
tonycondon said:
ah, so the answer is to make the ADIZ bigger
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Well, that is certainly what they'd do if they felt they couldn't identify small planes fast enough to react appropriately. Since they actually shrank, not expanded, the zone requiring comm and transponder codes after running those tests (but added some speed limits for VFR aircraft), I'm guessing they're pretty happy about their ability to handle unidentified planes going less than 230 knots inside 60nm and those going less than 180 knots inside the 30-mile ring.
 
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