Terrible FSS service

[SkyHog]

It's time for someone to do a AOL Vince(?) with an FSS call and post it with a running real time clock stamp on YouTube.

Who could do that? I dunno, somebody who knows how to record phone calls. Know anybody like that?

As soon as I can find the cable for my cellphone, I'll do it (unless someone beats me).

Nevermind, I think I left it at Michael's house (its in my headset bag).

 

[fishnfly]

ahhh...

I have read the horror stories about the new FSS but I had yet, until yesterday, to experience it for my self. St. Pete FSS is the closest to me and on June 1st they started to "switch over." Well on the new system I said I wanted South Florida, but somehow after sitting on hold forever, was connected to a FSS in Tennessee. The man very nicely told me that I was on hold for nothing because he "was not allowed" to file me an ICAO IFR flight plan to the Bahamas...

So I was given a direct number to Miami IFSS, where they have not yet (I think untill the 28th or something) to switch to the new system. For now I will be calling Miami FSS directly, but I'm afraid of what happens when they switch too..

 

[NC Pilot]

Lately the service from FSS has been much better. The phones are answered promptly and the briefing is fairly complete, although the briefer is not always local.

 

[jesse]

I called FSS on Friday. It was professional, to the point, and the entire call wasn't more then about 2 minutes. I don't mind calling FSS at all and always do it on the way to the airport.

I feel sorry for all you guys

 

[fishnfly]

Let me ask a naive question ...

If I'm near a computer, I get my briefing online. Very rarely do I have to call FSS. DUATS can be verbose, but it is complete, and it leaves it to me (and me alone) to make a judgement about the weather. (I use adds.aviationweather.gov as my primary source of weather information.)

On average, do people find that calling FSS is better, worse, or the same as getting a briefing from DUATS? Should I be trying the human briefing more often?

Once in the air obviously there is no choice ...

Speaking personally, I dont call FSS for the "briefing" but for the flight plan file. I have filed on the computer before and for whatever reason (either my fault or the system) I have not had good luck with it. Plus I believe (not sure) that you must call to file ICAO plans. Can someone verify/correct this?

 

[bkreager]

The only time I've recently had issues was when I was at Du Page trying to close a VFR plan over the phone, waited on hold for a couple minutes while being told that my call was important to them, then finally gave up and did it over DUAT.
I overheard this on some approach freq recently "Convective sigmet valid for . . . details on HIWAS, flight watch, or sometimes flight service stations."

 

[bstratt]

About 2-3 weeks ago I was doing a 2 legged LifeLine flight. I rarely talk to FSS anymore - DUATS, NOAA for weather and Notams, Flight Plan by DUATS. I had filed the second leg before I started based on estimated arrival time and estimated time on the ground.

When we were ready to go on the second leg I noticed I was about 30 minutes early so decided to phone FSS to advance my departure time. I was on hold for so long I gave up and ended up departing according to my filed time.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Let me ask a naive question ...

If I'm near a computer, I get my briefing online. Very rarely do I have to call FSS. DUATS can be verbose, but it is complete, and it leaves it to me (and me alone) to make a judgement about the weather. (I use adds.aviationweather.gov as my primary source of weather information.)

On average, do people find that calling FSS is better, worse, or the same as getting a briefing from DUATS? Should I be trying the human briefing more often?

Once in the air obviously there is no choice ...

I normally get all my weather on the computer, but, sometimes when things are developing, it's nice to get the opinion of someone that does this more than me. Frontal system forecast: what's it expected to do? Some are more severe than others. Some, I can fly above enroute to my destination. Sometimes, more than one weather system is affecting my route. So, on occasion, it's nice to discuss things with someone that does this for a living. There are meterologists at some facilities you can request information from.

Sometimes, I don't know exactly when I'm going to depart. I file a flight plan on line, but don't have access to a compute later to adjust the departure time. Sometimes, I need a clearance. I don't carry the phone number for each Approach/departure facility with me and FSS is the most expeditious place to get a clearance with a void time.

Those are all times I need FSS. Of course, at a towered airport, no problem with the departure clearance; it's only at uncontrolled facilities. In Portage, WI there's a dumb weather terminal; can't access DUATS if the FBO is closed and it's often closed on weekends and holidays when I'm there.

Best,

Dave

 

[gkainz]

ok, I'm somewhere between uber-pi$$ed off and jaded by the whole outsourcing game ... I wonder how long it will be before your "2 minutes and then transferred" phone call will be answered by "This is Flight Service Specialist Raj in New Dehli, and how may I be helping you today?"

 

[gprellwitz]

Speaking personally, I dont call FSS for the "briefing" but for the flight plan file. I have filed on the computer before and for whatever reason (either my fault or the system) I have not had good luck with it. Plus I believe (not sure) that you must call to file ICAO plans. Can someone verify/correct this?

I believe you can file an ICAO flight plan with DUATs electronically. Golden Eagle has the option for an ICAO plan in their menu, along with the electronic form to fill in.

From duats.com:

The CSC DUATS on the Web flight plan facilities allow you to handle and transmit VFR, IFR, DVFR, and international VFR and IFR flight plans directly to FAA flight service stations and instrument flight control facilities.
File a new domestic or ICAO (international) flight plan with the FAA.
View, cancel, or modify filed flight plans for a specific aircraft.
Enter an N-number to view the list of flight plan(s) you have filed for this aircraft using CSC DUATS on the Web. You may then modify or cancel these flight plan(s).
Close a VFR flight plan with the FAA. Use only when you have completed a flight; do not use to cancel a filed plan.

 

[Pilawt]

ok, I'm somewhere between uber-pi$$ed off and jaded by the whole outsourcing game ... I wonder how long it will be before your "2 minutes and then transferred" phone call will be answered by "This is Flight Service Specialist Raj in New Dehli, and how may I be helping you today?"

Could be worse:

"This winds aloft forecast has been brought to you by the new Lincoln Zephyr. I'll have the Papa John's Pizza Pireps for you in just a moment, but first, there is a convective sigmet all along your route of flight. But I have good news. I just saved a bunch of money on my car insurance ..."
​

-- Pilawt

 

[Don Jones]

It finally hit here as well. Last Thursday I was doing a night x/c with a student. I had him filing a flight plan and getting the briefing. He was on hold for like 20 minutes, no one ever answered. So we bailed on the flight plan and left. Tried flight service on the radio again, also no answer. I called ABQ center was told ABQ flight service was closed. No transfer to another FSS, nothing, just closed. Terrific!!!

 

[mikea]

It finally hit here as well. Last Thursday I was doing a night x/c with a student. I had him filing a flight plan and getting the briefing. He was on hold for like 20 minutes, no one ever answered. So we bailed on the flight plan and left. Tried flight service on the radio again, also no answer. I called ABQ center was told ABQ flight service was closed. No transfer to another FSS, nothing, just closed. Terrific!!!

C'Mon. Just call the nearest United Airlines dispatch desk. Problem solved!

 

[Richard]

Jeff, that is funny!This last week the wait time is no longer 20+ minutes; it's down to right away or a minute or two. But they don't seem to understand the specific format in which the information is given from or to the pilot. It's very confusing as they end up repeating their search for information they've already given. And no matter what I ask for they always give me a full standard briefing. And not knowing the geography or my route, they look across 3 states for every D NOTAM or TFR.Fred at Prescott who used to be at Rancho Murrieta (N CA) is the only guy I like. The rest should go back to cleaning offices.

 

[ScottM]

Jeff, that is funny!This last week the wait time is no longer 20+ minutes; it's down to right away or a minute or two. But they don't seem to understand the specific format in which the information is given from or to the pilot. It's very confusing as they end up repeating their search for information they've already given. And no matter what I ask for they always give me a full standard briefing. And not knowing the geography or my route, they look across 3 states for every D NOTAM or TFR.Fred at Prescott who used to be at Rancho Murrieta (N CA) is the only guy I like. The rest should go back to cleaning offices.

This has been my experience as well. Lots of repeating.

 

[kevin47881]

This has been my experience as well. Lots of repeating.

quote=smigaldi;193404]This has been my experience as well. Lots of repeating.[/quote]
quote=smigaldi;193404]This has been my experience as well. Lots of repeating.[/quote]
quote=smigaldi;193404]This has been my experience as well. Lots of repeating.[/quote]

Like this

 

[ScottM]

quote=smigaldi;193404]This has been my experience as well. Lots of repeating.

quote=smigaldi;193404]This has been my experience as well. Lots of repeating.[/quote]
quote=smigaldi;193404]This has been my experience as well. Lots of repeating.[/quote]

Like this [/quote]



Seriously, I had a briefing where the guy gave me the conditions three times for KDPA. Once for departure, once for enroute, and once for destination. Problem was I was not flying to KDPA. It took me three times of asking for the conditions at my destination before I got them. He quoted all kinds of stuff some of it not even in the same state. He was very flustered by the new system.

 

[bbchien]

Yup, it's hit Dogpatch in central iIllinois. 6/3 I filed by phone with a briefer in Virginia. Yes, Virginia.

SPI and PIA and Chicago could not find it anywhere once airborne. No internet access at Logan County....

Totally screwed me going into 1C5.

 

[Matthew]

It finally hit here, too. I didn't have any problems getting through to a briefer to get an outlook briefing Monday night, but Tuesday it took 4 calls for a standard briefing/flight plan - The first time I was on hold long enough I hung up, the second time I managed to get a briefer but got cut off, the third time was another long hold so I hung up, the fourth call went right through. Ended up talking to a briefer in Ft. Worth, instead of Columbia, MO like I used to (I'm near Kansas City). The guy was good enough at what he did, but I could tell he wasn't familiar with the airports I was flying to/from.

Question - Now, when I call on the phone, I get a recorded voice that asked what state I am flying from, then forwards me 'somewhere'. Is that the way it works for the rest of you?

 

[ScottM]

Yup, it's hit Dogpatch in central iIllinois. 6/3 I filed by phone with a briefer in Virginia. Yes, Virginia.

SPI and PIA and Chicago could not find it anywhere once airborne. No internet access at Logan County....

Totally screwed me going into 1C5.

You could not get a pop up?

At least when my flight plan got dumped last weekend Fort Wayne Approach offered right away to do the pop up.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Matthew:

That's the new system. They ask you to say the state you are from; then, transfer the call to someone that doesn't know your area! (Sorry for being cynical; I'm tired of paying for service we don't get.)

Best,

Dave

 

[Matthew]

Matthew:

That's the new system. They ask you to say the state you are from; then, transfer the call to someone that doesn't know your area! (Sorry for being cynical; I'm tired of paying for service we don't get.)

Best,

Dave

I found out that their voice recognition system has trouble distinguishing between 'Kansas' and 'Texas'. First I get the "I'm sorry, I don't understand. Try again." Then I got the "Did you say Texas?", and I tried several more times to cancel. After changing phones thinking that maybe it's just poor voice quality on the phone I was using, I ended up getting transferred to Ft. Worth anyway.

 

[SCCutler]

I found out that their voice recognition system has trouble distinguishing between 'Kansas' and 'Texas'. First I get the "I'm sorry, I don't understand. Try again." Then I got the "Did you say Texas?", and I tried several more times to cancel. After changing phones thinking that maybe it's just poor voice quality on the phone I was using, I ended up getting transferred to Ft. Worth anyway.

No, Matthew, the Voice Rec system is very poor; it rarely understands me, and I never have any trouble with other VR systems (for example, American Airlines' VR system).

 

[Everskyward]

Because I am concerned about getting a timely IFR clearance off of a small airport in Wyoming later today I called the "old" direct number for Casper FSS this morning and got through to them immediately after the LM recording. I asked if that was still the proper number to use for picking up IFR clearances on the ground. They said it was, but they also gave me a another direct number which bypasses the recording too. We'll see how it works this afternoon. I'm sure other FSSs have this capability too, it just takes some research to discover their magic number.

 

[wsuffa]

I found out that their voice recognition system has trouble distinguishing between 'Kansas' and 'Texas'. First I get the "I'm sorry, I don't understand. Try again." Then I got the "Did you say Texas?", and I tried several more times to cancel. After changing phones thinking that maybe it's just poor voice quality on the phone I was using, I ended up getting transferred to Ft. Worth anyway.

That's cause y'all ain't usin' a draawwll, padnah

 

[Matthew]

That's cause y'all ain't usin' a draawwll, padnah

heh. Yea, we say 'you all' with 2 syllables.

I figured I'd file over the radio instead of the phone if I couldn't get through. Then I started wondering - if they can route phone calls to who-knows-where, when will they do that with the radios?

 

[etsisk]

Well, my friend in FSS just got back from 5 weeks of training on the new systems. His comment is "if you aren't comfortable with on-line briefings, you'd better get that way. They've got a long row to hoe before they get this working right."

 

[mikea]

I called WX-BRIEF today. No problems other than my usual complaint with the low volume. Automated: "What state are you departing?"...Human: "Lansing FSS."

The briefer is one I think I've had before and he was cool and patient. I told him to talk me out of it but he didn't. He said things like "as soon as my screen updates..." so I assume they have the new 1990s graphic technology.
I asked for an outlook for Friday and that looked worse.

My CFI and I did talk me out of it.

 

[bluesky74656]

The last two times I've called Cleveland Flight Service I've waited for upwards of 20 minutes before I hung up. However, calling on the radio from the air got me on with a briefer on the second try.

 

[t0r0nad0]

At my flight school, it is policy that we call 800-WX-BRIEF before every flight and get a Standard briefing... no matter if it's a local flight to the practice area or a cross-country. I think the longest I've had to wait was 4-5 minutes on hold. I usually don't have a problem with the VR system recognizing when I say 'Tehk-sus' and then 'Eastek-sus'. Although, I have had a variety of different centers that I've been routed to. My complaint (since I have yet to start the x-country phase of my training and thus have not filed a FP) is that they just read to me VERBATIM what I can get off of the ADDS website. The only benefit I see is that they do record your voice and tail # so that in case something happens, you can prove to the FAA that you 'gathered all available information' about your flight. Oh, and I have experienced the problem with having to repeat my information request over again because they didn't hear it the first time.

 

[Richard]

Oh, and I have experienced the problem with having to repeat my information request over again because they didn't hear it the first time.

They don't hear because they are busy trying to learn to follow the specific format. How steep is the learning curve on that?

An added bonus is they don't understand what you're asking when you want to dig for information.

The other day I wanted additional information on a TFR on my route. The briefer kept saying, "Sir, the airport is closed." He was p!ssing me off as I continued to say I won't be landing there. It took five or more go arounds before he finally got the message I wanted him to provide the lateral limits of the TFR. What is so hard to understand about, "Does the TFR extend outside the aprt surface area?" I originally asked him for the Long/Lat coordinates and/or the VOR r but he couldn't decipher the information on his screen.

I even told one sweetheart of a briefer to just read the information...to have faith that even though the numbers don't make sense to her they would to me so just read aloud what you got. This was in the middle of her fubar'd attempt to explain to me what is a PAPI. She gets an A+ for enthusiasm...she was as enthusiastic as a new student pilot. I think they all are as new to the job.

 

[Richard]

quote=smigaldi;193404]This has been my experience as well. Lots of repeating.

quote=smigaldi;193404]This has been my experience as well. Lots of repeating.[/quote]
quote=smigaldi;193404]This has been my experience as well. Lots of repeating.[/quote]

Like this [/quote]You can say that again.

 

[woodstock]

Gaaaaah!

So the FAA fined Lockheed $9 million for not living up to their performance guarantees... And now Lockheed is demanding a 10-percent increase in the amount of the contract ($177 mil increase) because they say that the FAA "didn't supply accurate labor cost information."

http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/865-full.html#195180



Word is, both LM and Boeing are trying like mad to take over ATC as well.

Let this be a lesson... Privatization of government functions is a BAD IDEA.

I wonder when/if the FAA will take it back or if the genie's been let out of the bottle...

 

[KennyFlys]

The following article was in this morning's Avweb Flash:
http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/923-full.html

Flight Service


I began working for FAA FSS in 1976, continued through Lockheed-Martin's (LM) takeover and quit about eighteen months later when I saw what a big mistake had been made. A pilot's interaction with a FSS specialist has always been a crapshoot. Some specialists and management are good, others are horrendous. And now with LM, the odds are stacked against the pilots.

Even the good specialists and management are struggling with what use to be routine, simple tasks. When a pilot contacts FSS, he has started a scary game of chance. His call may be routed, rerouted, and rerouted around the U.S. The term LM uses for a call being passed around is it "waterfalls" or “cascades.” What that means is a call, if completed, can end up anywhere in the FSS system. Specialists, who had been doing the job efficiently for 20, 30, or more years, are now scrambling to field request from who knows where.

LM is approaching another anniversary of running FSS. It is still not unusual for FSS nationwide to go down. Hardware and software failures are common. The result is a system that is patched together, propped up, and worked around. LM is having difficulties staffing even the three major hubs, let alone the lesser facilities. Some employees who have had long careers are quitting rather than put up with LM's mess. New hires are getting a fraction of the benefits that specialists had once expected. All of this turmoil is making for a tense, unhappy workforce.

There is no going back. Bridges have been burned. The FAA will not entertain turning back the clock. That will not happen. After working in an FSS system that ran safely and efficiently, I saw it deteriorate to become dangerous. If I were flying, I would try my best to not rely upon FSS for anything. I have seen the confusion on the FSS side of the telephone and microphone. I have worked daily beside some unbelievably bad specialists, supervisors, and management. Why would one risk one's life in LM's game of chance?
Glenn Baker

I applaud Mr. Baker for speaking out. It's probably best he's no longer there. I can only imagine the backlash.

Kent is right, here. But, it's the choice of evils. Do you have an operation run by an inept government or by a profit-motivated corporation. I'm all for a company being profitable but we as pilots are not truly regarded as the customer nor are we getting what we pay for with our tax dollars. How will it change? When will it change? Who has the power to provide incentive for change and who is willing to use those incentives?

 

[mikea]

I wonder when/if the FAA will take it back or if the genie's been let out of the bottle...

LM made sure that all of those phone lines go to facilities they own. There will be no unwinding. There will only be none of us using a terminally broken system.

LM is touting the number of calls received and processed. They have no way of counting calls dropped or calls that were never made because the pilots are fed up...or the calls they count as successful where the pilot didn't get what was needed because the briefer was clueless.

 

[SCCutler]

The quality of service I receive has improved markedly in the last 90 days. Most calls handled by either Ft. Worth or Albuquerque, and generally by seasoned and qualified briefers. Still the occasional dropped call, but wait times are down to the under one minute level again, usually about 15 seconds.

The voice response system, though, is dung.

 

[Ghery]

Flew from OLM to PUW on Friday (7/27). Filed a flight plan using DUATS. Couldn't get FSS to answer the radio after I took off when I wanted to open it. Picked up flight following from Seattle Approach and had that all the way across the state, so not being able to open the plan wasn't a disaster.

Coming home on Sunday they answered the radio almost immediately after I took off from PUW. Opened the plan. Called them again about KLS and amended the plan as we had more headwinds than predicted and were running a little late. One more call to close the plan. Worked fine on Sunday. Don't know what happened on Friday.

I haven't called them on the phone since the changeover, so I can't say how that's been working in the PNW.

 

[woodstock]

LM made sure that all of those phone lines go to facilities they own. There will be no unwinding. There will only be none of us using a terminally broken system.

LM is touting the number of calls received and processed. They have no way of counting calls dropped or calls that were never made because the pilots are fed up...or the calls they count as successful where the pilot didn't get what was needed because the briefer was clueless.

what sucks is, their incompetence is pushing folks over to DUATS which means LM is still getting paid - for less volume/less service.

 

[mikea]

what sucks is, their incompetence is pushing folks over to DUATS which means LM is still getting paid - for less volume/less service.

I'm sure LM is handling the call that they get in record time. Don't mention how many they don't know about.

What really sucks is that DUAT and DUATS were supposed to be replaced by a new wunnerful system from LM by now.

 

[HPNPilot1200]

I use fltplan.com for everything besides VFR flight plans, because you can't file them via the online site(s) as they go through flight service and not the FAA ATC Host computer.

My flight school requires we student pilots "file" (note, the policy does not say we have to activate) VFR flight plans for solo cross-country flights. So a few weeks ago I called up Bridgeport AFSS to file a few VFR flight plans via the direct phone number, got a briefer 2 seconds after I selected the appropriate menu choice, and he was the funniest guy I've ever spoken to there. He was very helpful, efficient, and humorous. I sent positive feedback to LM and received a prompt response the following day stating that my e-mail would be forwarded to the operations manager at the BDR AFSS.

I've heard many stories from many other pilots though that thouroughly convince me the system is broken. I haven't experienced too much of it firsthand because BDR has always been fantastic for me via the direct line. The gentleman who responded to my feedback e-mail told me BDR AFSS will be closing on August 20th but there are quite a few briefers that will be moving to their new AFSS in Ashburn, Virginia.

Hopefully this quality of service will soon spread across the country!