Terrible AMTRAK crash in Wash state

yes, it's awful. it's also closed the whole of I5 Southbound between Seattle and Portland
 
This is a Spanish built train owned by WSDOT operating on Sound Transit owned track. Amtrak is the operator.

Awful accident for sure, but our little county alone kills more people on the road each month.

Hope they can figure out what caused this. Although this was a newly refurbished track with newish rolling stock there was no positive train control (PTC) in use.
 
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Horrible news, and it hits close to home.

I've taken that train between Portland and Seattle many, many times. The Amtrak Cascades is a joint venture between Amtrak and the states of Washington and Oregon, to provide frequent passenger service between Seattle and Portland, with two trains a day continuing north to Vancouver BC and south to Eugene, Oregon. Cascades is a tenant using the freight lines of the BNSF Railway (and UP, which has trackage rights on BNSF) north of Portland Union Station, and of Union Pacific south of that point. The locomotives and rolling stock are owned by the states, and crews are Amtrak employees. The passenger cars are low-slung, lightweight, semi-permanently-coupled types originally built by the Talgo company of Spain, though a couple of the newer trainsets were built in the US under license. The suspension connects to the tops of the cars like a pendulum, allowing the cars to lean into turns at higher speed. They're actually quite comfortable and ride well. They do look odd with that low profile, though.

Screen Shot 2017-12-18 at 3.34.54 PM.png

Until last week, anyway, the most scenic part of the route was between Olympia and Tacoma, as the train cruised slowly along the shore of Puget Sound, through the quaint fishing and resort towns, past the gorgeous Chambers Bay Golf Course (2015 US Open venue), under the Tacoma Narrows Bridge ("Galloping Gertie"), then through a couple of tunnels at Point Defiance before entering Tacoma. The problem was that those tunnels only accommodated single tracks, and the frequent Cascades schedule, along with the daily Amtrak Coast Starlight from L.A., interfered with freight traffic. So it was decided to get the passenger trains off the Puget Sound route by rebuilding and adapting an old, little-used freight line south of Tacoma, and connecting with the existing local commuter train line with new bridges and tracks just south of Old Town Tacoma. Bad news was the loss of the scenery along Puget Sound; good news was supposed to have been a slightly shorter route on the new Point Defiance Bypass with higher track speeds and a saving of about ten minutes off the schedule. And BNSF (and its tenant UP) were delighted to get rid of the passenger trains on the Puget Sound route.

bypass_tests_web.jpg

The accident train was the inaugural southbound run from Seattle over the Point Defiance Bypass route. The accident happened on an S-curve over an old bridge over I-5, just north of where the new Bypass Route joins the original route -- just above the letter 'S' of the "Southern Limit Nisqually Junction" label at the bottom of the map above.

I heard a report today that the train was going 81.1 mph. If that is true, it's not surprising that the train left the track on that curve.

Screen Shot 2017-12-18 at 3.18.59 PM.png
 
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Pilawt said:
Horrible news, and it hits close to home.

I've taken that train between Portland and Seattle many, many times. The Amtrak Cascades is a joint venture between Amtrak and the states of Washington and Oregon, to provide frequent passenger service between Seattle and Portland, with two trains a day continuing north to Vancouver BC and south to Eugene, Oregon. Cascades is a tenant using the freight lines of the BNSF Railway (and UP, which has trackage rights on BNSF) north of Portland Union Station, and of Union Pacific south of that point. The locomotives and rolling stock are owned by the states, and crews are Amtrak employees. The passenger cars are low-slung, lightweight, semi-permanently-coupled types originally built by the Talgo company of Spain, though a couple of the newer trainsets were built in the US under license. The suspension connects to the tops of the cars like a pendulum, allowing the cars to lean into turns at higher speed. They're actually quite comfortable and ride well. They do look odd with that low profile, though.

View attachment 58603

Until last week, anyway, the most scenic part of the route was between Olympia and Tacoma, as the train cruised slowly along the shore of Puget Sound, through the quaint fishing and resort towns, past the gorgeous Chambers Bay Golf Course (2015 US Open venue), under the Tacoma Narrows Bridge ("Galloping Gertie"), then through a couple of tunnels at Point Defiance before entering Tacoma. The problem was that those tunnels only accommodated single tracks, and the frequent Cascades schedule, along with the daily Amtrak Coast Starlight from L.A., interfered with freight traffic. So it was decided to get the passenger trains off the Point Defiance route by rebuilding and adapting an old, little-used freight line south of Tacoma, and connecting with the existing local commuter train line with new bridges and tracks just south of Old Town Tacoma. Bad news was the loss of the scenery along Puget Sound; good news was supposed to have been a slightly shorter route on the new Point Defiance Bypass with higher track speeds and a saving of about ten minutes off the schedule. And BNSF (and its tenant UP) were delighted to get rid of the passenger trains on the Puget Sound route.

View attachment 58604

The accident train was the inaugural southbound run from Seattle over the Point Defiance Bypass route. The accident happened on an S-curve over an old bridge over I-5, just north of where the new Bypass Route joins the original route -- just above the letter 'S' of the "Southern Limit Nisqually Junction" label at the bottom of the map above.

I heard a report today that the train was going 81.1 mph. If that is true, it's not surprising that the train left the track on that curve.

View attachment 58605
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Thanks for your post, very educational. From what I'm hearing they are suspecting speed. News had a victim who described the train as going fast and the car beginning to lean, lean some more, and then he was in the woods, below the track. A real mess. God rest their souls, and prayers for the injured.
 
Pilawt said:
I heard a report today that the train was going 81.1 mph. If that is true, it's not surprising that the train left the track on that curve.
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2.1 mph above the speed limit for that section of track, according to the "news".
 
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MauleSkinner said:
Ok...they were saying 79 for a limit when I saw it earlier.

One of the reasons I seldom watch news.
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79 is the max on the new route, but that does not mean on all of the new route. Like MEAs, speed limits change along the way, but a 21st Century "journalist" could not be expected to comprehend that.

 
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Here's a photo of one of the last Cascades trains scheduled to use the Puget Sound route. In nice weather it was a spectacular trip.

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/640787

The lead locomotive in that photo (a new WSDOT Siemens "Charger") is the same type that was pulling the accident train. In the post-crash photos it looks like its top was peeled off like a car's sunroof.

Screen Shot 2017-12-18 at 6.26.51 PM.png

The blue locomotive in this photo was pushing at the back of the train, and was facing to the rear. It's the only thing in the consist that stayed on the track.

Screen Shot 2017-12-18 at 6.25.58 PM.png
 
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Engineers have to be certified for each territory, just like a controller for a position in an ATC facility. Did they not tell the guy to slow down for the S or was he distracted ?
 
It's my understanding this is, to use the aviation term, a "single pilot" operation. Only one guy in the locomotive. This was the very first revenue run on this route. I don't know what their training is -- would they have had non-revenue runs? Sim training? We'll probably be hearing more about this.

In 2008, when a Metrolink commuter train ran head-on into a UP freight at a blind curve in Chatsworth CA (25 fatalities), there was only one guy in the commuter train cab there, as well. Alone, that is, except for the cell phone on which he was carrying on a texting conversation. I know that place well; point of impact was about 1,100 feet from the house where we lived until 1995.
 
This isn't the red board: As far as I know, we're not obligated to insert token aviation references into every post, as long as we behave ourselves. ;)
 
Palmpilot said:
This isn't the red board: As far as I know, we're not obligated to insert token aviation references into every post, as long as we behave ourselves. ;)
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Of course it isn’t required, but I find it odd that he would go to Amtrak of all places after a successful run at DAL.

I guess he brought some light chop with him.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Fearless Tower said:
Of course it isn’t required, but I find it odd that he would go to Amtrak of all places after a successful run at DAL.

I guess he brought some light chop with him.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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Look at his bio. Been at a few companies, like Northwest, UHC.
 
The local news is now saying the train entered the corner at 81 MPH with the corner speed posted at 30 mph.
 
I guess the saying, "It handles like it's on rails," won't carry quite the same meaning as it used to.
 
Tom-D said:
The local news is now saying the train entered the corner at 81 MPH with the corner speed posted at 30 mph.
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They are also saying that the new line was never tested. They only did computer models which showed the train could make the curve at high speed.
 
ARFlyer said:
They are also saying that the new line was never tested. They only did computer models which showed the train could make the curve at high speed.
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Horse Hockey! Reporters (certainly can't call them journalists any more) don't have a clue about reality regarding the railroads any more than they do about aviation.

Federal rules required that line to be thoroughly tested and engineers qualified on that stretch before they could carry any passengers.
 
NTSB report out this AM says the train speed was 81.1 MPH and the posted curve speed was 30. cause of accident was high speed.
 
Norman said:
Horse Hockey! Reporters (certainly can't call them journalists any more) don't have a clue about reality regarding the railroads any more than they do about aviation.

Federal rules required that line to be thoroughly tested and engineers qualified on that stretch before they could carry any passengers.
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Yeah thought I read something that it had been tested.
 
A knowledgeable person posted this photo and caption on a rail-oriented site. He followed up with this comment on another site:

It appears that since I posted the photo, the fatalities have been confirmed to be 3 and that the NTSB has confirmed what I saw on site, that over speed was a (the) major factor. This of course will only lead to more speculation as to why. I just hope that people who are inclined to rush to judgement, will withhold their typing until the NTSB concludes the investigation and makes a pronouncement. For me, I know the engineer to be a fine person and by his co-workers accounts, an experienced and competent railroad employee. I'm certain he's going through hell at the moment. ​
 
Pilawt said:
The suspension connects to the tops of the cars like a pendulum
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Pilawt said:
allowing the cars to lean into turns at higher speed
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If it is setup like a pendulum then wouldn't the CG move to the outside of the turn? Making the tipping moment worse? Or is computer controlled so the CG moves towards the inside of the turn? Genuinely curious as these leaning type trains always fascinated me
 
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Tantalum said:
If it is setup like a pendulum then wouldn't the CG move to the outside of the turn? Making the tipping moment worse? Or is computer controlled so the CG moves towards the inside of the turn? Genuinely curious as these leaning type trains always fascinated me
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As I understand it, it's a completely passive system.

https://www.talgo.com/en/rolling-stock/technological-principles/


Yes, the car does sway outward slightly, but it's the lower part that moves laterally, so the tipping moment is not as great. In addition, from the passenger's standpoint, the car is banked more into the turn, reducing the perceived lateral force.
 
Thanks @Pilawt , interesting. I'll do a little more research into it. I would think it if were passive it would make the whole tipping moment worse.. but I'm no engineer so there's probably some cool physics wizardry that helps

The video makes it seem like the whole track is banked though:

upload_2017-12-19_16-29-53.png
 
Tantalum said:
The video makes it seem like the whole track is banked though:
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It is; curves capable of any significant speed are superelevated to some degree. But that inset image does show the lower part of the carbody swayed out, increasing the "bank".

All of that may or may not be relevant here, since the lead locomotive, which has much greater mass and a higher CG, and does not have pendular suspension, left the track first and took the rest of the train with it.

The Siemens SC-44 "Charger" locomotive type was first introduced in March 2016 and went into Amtrak service in August 2017. Not speculating as to a cause, but I'm sure one of the questions NTSB will be asking is whether there was some equipment malfunction that prevented the engineer from slowing the train.
 
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Thanks @Pilawt

The track was tested, but as you say there will be a few suspect areas here to look into. Obviously the huge flag is a train going almost 3 times the posted speed limit... which I assume unlike road speed limits train speed limits are usually designed with more critical margins in mind (kind of like Vspeeds on planes). Maybe I'm wrong.. but will be very curious as to why it was going 3 times the limit
 
If I'm not mistaken, the engineers are supposed to memorize the speed limits on each stretch of track for which they qualify.
 
wsuffa said:
If I'm not mistaken, the engineers are supposed to memorize the speed limits on each stretch of track for which they qualify.
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If true that's pretty impressive. But also surprising, and sad. Is it really that low tech? There is no annunciator in the cab? $150 will get you a road nav GPS with speed limits.. nuts if they don't have that tech for trains and require the operators to memorize track limits
 
Tantalum said:
If true that's pretty impressive. But also surprising, and sad. Is it really that low tech? There is no annunciator in the cab? $150 will get you a road nav GPS with speed limits.. nuts if they don't have that tech for trains and require the operators to memorize track limits
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There are signs along the track. That's it.

PTC (Positive Train Control) is supposed to change that, but the stretch of track and train involved here is NOT yet operational with PTC.

The fatal Amtrak crash in Philly a couple of years ago was caused by the same thing: speeding into a curve.
 
Here's a typical speed board along the Cascades route, this one near Vancouver WA. 79 mph for Talgo trains (Cascades); 70 mph for other passenger trains; and 60 mph for freights.

Screen Shot 2017-12-19 at 3.06.04 PM.png
 
Pilawt said:
A knowledgeable person posted this photo and caption on a rail-oriented site. He followed up with this comment on another site:

It appears that since I posted the photo, the fatalities have been confirmed to be 3 and that the NTSB has confirmed what I saw on site, that over speed was a (the) major factor. This of course will only lead to more speculation as to why. I just hope that people who are inclined to rush to judgement, will withhold their typing until the NTSB concludes the investigation and makes a pronouncement. For me, I know the engineer to be a fine person and by his co-workers accounts, an experienced and competent railroad employee. I'm certain he's going through hell at the moment. ​
Click to expand...

People here are somewhat more respectful. On a railroad forum I participate in posters there had the engineer of Amtrak 188 crucified before the train hit the ground.

I prefer to let NTSB do their job and at least have the preliminary report out before I start speculating.
 
Fearless Tower said:
So, in keeping an aviation theme....Richard Anderson is now the CEO of Amtrak????
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That was my first thought when I heard about the crash. Maybe airplanes aren't so bad!

Condolences to all suffering as a result of this totally avoidable crash.
 
weilke said:
That's just sad. I bet WSDOT/ODOT would have funded the PTC equipment on their rolling stock if Amtrak had asked for it to be part of the contract.
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I find it hard to understand why it's so costly. It seems to me that it could have been done with a few tweaks to existing GPS receiver technology. I do understand that it also detects obstructions on the track, but that feature's probably useless anyway. By the time an obstruction is in the field of view, it's likely going to be too late to stop the train anyway.

Rich
 
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