Temperature Lift/Trim Effects

hankrausch

Pre-takeoff checklist
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I am wondering if my plane (PA38) is just out of trim or this is a temperature effect. It seems that I do not have enough forward trim to keep the nose down at (what used to be) normal cruising RPM. The plane just wants to climb with 2300 rpm and trim all the way forward, single occupant, unless I keep a steady forward pressure on the yoke. No weight/balance changes have been done. Am I correct in associating this with increased lift from low temps this time of year? Did a web search and found the usual "aviation 101" discussions about temperature and humidity, but nothing specifically addressing what happens to the trim tab, all other things being equal, as outside air temp goes down. If I cannot attribute this to the temp I think I will take a tach to the prop, as the plane is acting like it has a lot more rpm than indicated.

Hank Rausch
 
yea id check the tach first, then the trim system.

the lower density altitude effects the wing and tail the same, so i dont see why colder temps would change the trim condition of the airplane.

and welcome to PoA!
 
I am wondering if my plane (PA38) is just out of trim or this is a temperature effect. It seems that I do not have enough forward trim to keep the nose down at (what used to be) normal cruising RPM. The plane just wants to climb with 2300 rpm and trim all the way forward, single occupant, unless I keep a steady forward pressure on the yoke. No weight/balance changes have been done. Am I correct in associating this with increased lift from low temps this time of year? Did a web search and found the usual "aviation 101" discussions about temperature and humidity, but nothing specifically addressing what happens to the trim tab, all other things being equal, as outside air temp goes down. If I cannot attribute this to the temp I think I will take a tach to the prop, as the plane is acting like it has a lot more rpm than indicated.

Hank Rausch

I would think that if you're not exceeding Vno in level flight you should be able to trim.

Aren't there some components of the PA-38 trim system life-limited? Maybe something is about to give up the ghost, I'd see a mechanic ASAP.


Trapper John
 
I had a winter problem with trim in my PA28 because the cable tension was too low and the cable was slipping in the winter when the grease would get stiffer. It was evident though because the trim indicator would not move.
 
You should not run out of trim in cruise! Something must be mechanically wrong there.
 
You should not run out of trim in cruise! Something must be mechanically wrong there.
Concur -- no matter how much the tach is off, you've got a problem with the trim system. And this is one of those "fix it before you fly again" type things -- if it gets worse, you may not be able to control the pitch-up at all.
 
Looks like you're right on.

See page 1G13, Figure 27-10...

http://bomar.biz/request.php?991


Trapper John

I would take the aircraft in to your mechanic and have him re rig the trim IAW the maintenance manual. Chances are what you are seeing is the system is out of rig, and the cold temperatures are just making it go further out.

Doesn't look like a major procedure to accomplish.

Thanks for the link to the MM.:smilewinkgrin:
 
Many thanks for your attention, I will definitely have the mechanics look at it.

Hank Rausch
 
From an A&P/IA you have a rigging problem. I have seen this before and you are right have it checked before the next flight.
 
From a non-A&P/IA: The 5 lbs. of sitcky-backed wheel weights in the spinner might have shifted or come out all together...this would account for both the trim problem and the RPM change. Ya'll might check it prior to 4 or 5 more flights...:yikes:


Just pulling your leg Hank; I know the wheel weights are really Super-glued inside the cowling...:D



Chris
 
I had a winter problem with trim in my PA28 because the cable tension was too low and the cable was slipping in the winter when the grease would get stiffer. It was evident though because the trim indicator would not move.

Aluminum has a coefficient of linear thermal expansion that is almost exactly twice that of steel. The aluminum aircraft hull will shrink in the cold twice as much as the steel cables shrink, and the cables lose tension. If they need that tension to drive a pulley to adjust a trim screw, they're going to have trouble grabbing the pulley. And since cables can stretch a little over time, they may have been below spec already.

And if the pulley bearing and screw lubricating greases are stiff in the cold, we now have two problems.

Airplanes rot whether they're flown or not. Time and the environment are bigger enemies than the flight time. I find control system pulleys that haven't been regularly lubed and kept free; they develop sludge as their lubricants dry out and combine with water and dust from the air and soon they won't turn. The cable slides over them and besides having stiff controls, the cable is being abraded and is going to start fraying. Some that have very small contact radii (the cable makes a very small change in direction over the pulley) are inclined to stick sooner since there's little pressure on them. The cables will also fray at these pulleys because vibration chatters them agains the pulleys. There are a couple of bad ones in the 172 at the aft end of the baggage compartment.

Oil and fuel hoses rot or dry out and crack. Imagine a scenario where the fuel hose between the gascolator and carb breaks in flight because it's so old. It's a flexible hose in the first place because the engine moves on its rubber mounts and the hose has to follow it around. If it's old it stiffens and cracks when it's flexed. Imagine an oil cooler hose that could split and spray hot oil on a muffler where it catches fire and continues to burn while the engine, whether it's running or windmilling, keeps pumping oil into the fire until the oil is gone. I see really old hoses way too often. Any rubber or plastic parts lose solvents or whatever it is that keeps them flexible; you can smell those solvents when you smell new rubber. Think tire store. They're leaving right from the time the part is new. Five years is a safe bet for replacing engine fluid hoses. There are also short bits of rubber hose connecting metal fuel lines in a lot of airplanes; the Cessnas have them in the cabin at the wing roots. We find those rotted, too, and if they start leaking in flight you can't shut them off.

Imagine a wing strut that's rusting on the inside and most of it is gone already and nobody notices. A common Aeronca Champ problem. Taylorcraft now too, I think. Wooden wing spars dry and shrink across the grain and if they have metal ribs nailed to them, the metal ends up splitting the wood along the grain. Not healthy for safe flight.

Animals think airplanes are great places to raise families because they're undisturbed for so long. A week is enough to get started on the family. We find bird nests inside 172 elevators (look inside at the rudder end) and wings (they get in ahead of the ailerons) and engines. Bird droppings are corrosive and their nests can foul stuff. Mice are everywhere and they pee on everything and corrode it so fast it's not funny. A dead mouse jammed in a cable pulley is no joke. Mice like to eat the linen ribstitching on fabric airplanes. No ribstitching means the fabric balloons and flutters and maybe the airplane crashes.

Dust gets into everything and soaks up oil and makes gucky stuff that seizes everything. Water can mix with oils and greases and form acids and more sludge. The sun cooks the solvents out of oils and greases and rubber and plastics and fabrics. Its UV degrades all sorts of stuff. Ozone attacks rubber, especially tires.

A mechanic who looks at the logs or Hobbs and says "Only 15 hours this last year; this annual we can just giver 'er the quick once-over and she's good to go" is overlooking something: the last mechanic might have said the same thing, and the one before him, too. So not much gets opened up and looked at real good and the sort of rotten/seized/corroded stuff I've described develops. The owner often wants to avoid big shop costs and is happy if the annual is cheap. In the end, though, the airplane loses most of its value and becomes an unsafe airplane. False economy.

Dan
 
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Hey, Hank -- if you're still listening, what did the mechanic find out? Lotta chumps here wanna know if we got stumped!
 
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