Tell me what kind of airplane I'm looking for

[bstratt]

One issue to consider with a Six (i.e. a six-seater) as opposed to a four seater is insurance. I've been told (the ubiquitous "they say" ) that because it'll take six butts they consider the potential increased liability of the additional passengers and increase the premiums. Others, of course, have told me that this isn't the case. Check it out for yourself.

Oh, and put me down as another who considers the 182 to be a great all-around machine.

The key factor is the 6th person. If you commit to never have more than 5 SOB's its the same insurance as the 4 seater. And yes, look for club seating otherwise the two middle seats are practically useless. It'll comfortably carry 4 adult men and 4 sets of golf clubs.

 

[gprellwitz]

The key factor is the 6th person. If you commit to never have more than 5 SOB's its the same insurance as the 4 seater. And yes, look for club seating otherwise the two middle seats are practically useless. It'll comfortably carry 4 adult men and 4 sets of golf clubs.

So they'll accept a commitment? That's good to know. I thought that they would only look at how many the plane is certified to handle. Of course, W&B usually precludes me getting anywhere near that number anyway!

 

[poadeleted20]

The key factor is the 6th person. If you commit to never have more than 5 SOB's its the same insurance as the 4 seater.

I was not aware that was an option.

 

[Merf]

N9566H 1976 172M -- 180 hp airplains conversion

Payload full fuel -- 789 lbs (been there on "warm" day)
Range 3.8 hours (38 useable/around 10 gph -- can run slower for better economy)
Speed (honest speed) 120 kts TAS ( I've seen as high as 130 don't like to run there)

Sounds like your machine to me...have to dump 11 lbs

 

[bstratt]

I was not aware that was an option.

Well it was for the rental I used to take. I had to sign an acknowlegement/release that I would never fly with more than 5 people and if I did I was uninsured (which for the FBO meant I never could). I'm assuming if the FBO could get it then a private owner could as well.

 

[Neal Howard]

What about an older Bonanza?

 

[Baron 55]

I am assuming that 800 lb. is among four people, since you are considering 4-seaters. Someone or several someones are pretty large folks, and you should, I think, try them out in whatever you get serious about. I agree with the 182/Dakota idea. Some larger people hate getting into and out of the Piper singles. Some say it's no big deal. I'm skinny, I cannot say. But stick two substantial people down in the rear seats of a Piper on a hot day and someone is gonna be suffering. They'll be a bit tight in many singles, though. So, besides range and useful load, considering your spec's, you would be wise to see how everyone fits into and feels about the plane before you lay out the cash. And you will be in some serious trouble at some point if you shave the fuel load too much. An increase in the headwind, unexpected, or a hot day with an unusually long time-to-climb, etc., can put you on fumes long before you thought it could happen.

As to the insurance for number of seats, I am not an expert there. However, at the school I taught, with some 3 dozen planes from 152 to 310 and pretty much everything inbetween at times, there were very, very defininte increased policy costs for any plane that had over four seats. The broker once told me [and this has been backed up a number of times by other owners], that it made zero difference to the insurance co. whether you promised to never, ever, ever load up more than 4 seats, whether you signed a written statement that you wouldn't, that you put your beloved mother in escrow just in case you played with the thought of, maybe, just one more passenger just one time. The insurers, he said, didn't care whether you flew a six-seater 100% of the time all by yourself, no passengers. The liability they see is that the plane has five or six seats and so there is no way they can ever be sure the pilot would never fill them up. One FBO at my field told me that they got rid of their Barons and 310s [rentals] and some single, I think it was a Lance or something, anything with six seats, because they couldn't afford to insure them.

By the way, someone I knew bought a Bonanza, took out two seats, and was displeased when the insurer wouldn't go for it as a 4-seater. The broker said, well, it is certified for six seats, you could stick the two seats back in there just one time and crash and we'd have six bodies instead of four. They wouldn't budge on his rate.

 

[stingray]

By the way, someone I knew bought a Bonanza, took out two seats, and was displeased when the insurer wouldn't go for it as a 4-seater. The broker said, well, it is certified for six seats, you could stick the two seats back in there just one time and crash and we'd have six bodies instead of four. They wouldn't budge on his rate.

They must not have done the paperwork then, because it works with a 150, it is a two seater but you can install a third seat.

Take all the seats out and convert it to cargo, Do the paperwork and it is a two seater. If the seats are removable type it may not work, but if you take out all the hardware (Seatbelts and brackets) you should be able to get it classified as 4 seats after doing the paperwork.

Dan

 

[dmccormack]

Given the choice, I'd go with the 206. The OP wanted 172-like handling and the 206 will be closer to the mark, but one should still get a checkout at gross in both and then decide which is more suited to their expectations.

One thing to keep in mind, though, is how often you need the extra seats. I dare say most private flying is done solo and it's a little pricey to haul around all that extra airplane. But if you truly expect to fill the seats a majority of the time a 6 place may be your best bet. They are not entry level aircraft, though. O & M costs can be an eye-opener.

My current student was looking for about 6 months. He was training in a C172 but wanted to learn in his own a/c instead of paying rental.

On the advice of some pilot freinds, he considered a Cherokee 6, but that particular a/c was a bit dated in appearance. Insurance was also going to be quite high. He took a test flight but as a low time student pilot couldn't really evaluate the airplane.

He looked at a Commander 114, but we (a fellow CFI and I) helped him reconsider. I took him flying in an A36, but it was a bit out of his price range (<$120k).

A completely restored C205/210 (A fixed gear 210) came available on the local field for ~100k. He asked my opinion and I told him it seemed to meet his mission needs. After a test flight he asked me to fly it. It flew like a big 172, had great avionics package, and I told him so. He decided to purchase the airplane.

The a/c will haul plenty, has very forgiving flight characteristics, TAS is around 135 knots, burns about 12 GPH, and has 6 seats (though 6 adults would not work -- 4 adults and 2 kids will).

A 16k Service ceiling, great short field takeoff and landing performance, and tough Cessna sprung steel gear make this the ideal trainer-to-workhorse airplane.

The 1962 "205/210" was only built for two model years -- 1963 & 1964. Cessna made some design changes and the new model became the 206.

 

[dmccormack]

By the way, someone I knew bought a Bonanza, took out two seats, and was displeased when the insurer wouldn't go for it as a 4-seater. The broker said, well, it is certified for six seats, you could stick the two seats back in there just one time and crash and we'd have six bodies instead of four. They wouldn't budge on his rate.

The American Bonanza Society recommends Avemco for insurance, but I can't say if fewer seats would result in lower rates with them, either.

 

[bstratt]

As to the insurance for number of seats, I am not an expert there. However, at the school I taught, with some 3 dozen planes from 152 to 310 and pretty much everything inbetween at times, there were very, very defininte increased policy costs for any plane that had over four seats. The broker once told me [and this has been backed up a number of times by other owners], that it made zero difference to the insurance co. whether you promised to never, ever, ever load up more than 4 seats, whether you signed a written statement that you wouldn't, that you put your beloved mother in escrow just in case you played with the thought of, maybe, just one more passenger just one time. The insurers, he said, didn't care whether you flew a six-seater 100% of the time all by yourself, no passengers. The liability they see is that the plane has five or six seats and so there is no way they can ever be sure the pilot would never fill them up. One FBO at my field told me that they got rid of their Barons and 310s [rentals] and some single, I think it was a Lance or something, anything with six seats, because they couldn't afford to insure them.

That's the opposite of what I was told. Maybe it depends on the insurance company? He should check with his.

 

[AirBaker]

The American Bonanza Society recommends Avemco for insurance, but I can't say if fewer seats would result in lower rates with them, either.

My V35 has a 5th seat and can take up to 6 seats. No discount on insurance for removing the 5th seat through my insurance...