Teardrop? Parallel? Direct? without GPS

skidoo said:
This is what I have had trouble with too. And, yours is a great answer. But, it still is easily confused. If the first bold is true, then shouldn't the direction be corrected to the Red bold above? And, if so, then you demonstrate how easy it is to get confused even from those experienced.
Click to expand...

No. See my second (and less colorful) picture. You can hold on either side of a DME fix on a radial. So your inbound leg could be "with" the radial or "against" it.
 
EdFred said:
No. See my second (and less colorful) picture. You can hold on either side of a DME fix on a radial. So your inbound leg could be "with" the radial or "against" it.
Click to expand...

Your diagrams and descriptions are excellent! However, I think the confusion I described exists in verb-age and interpretation. In re-reading his statement

"the inbound leg is to the NE of the 10 DME", I interpreted that to mean "towards the NE", and I had thought legs inbound were always "towards the fix." Now, I can see in looking at your blue diagram, both inbound and outbound legs are to the NE relative to the fix, but only the outbound leg is towards the NE and the inbound leg is towards the SW. And, from all your descriptions, the hold direction looks to be always the direction of the outbound leg. Is this correct?
 
skidoo said:
Your diagrams and descriptions are excellent! However, I think the confusion I described exists in verb-age and interpretation. In re-reading his statement

"the inbound leg is to the NE of the 10 DME", I interpreted that to mean "towards the NE", and I had thought legs inbound were always "towards the fix." Now, I can see in looking at your blue diagram, both inbound and outbound legs are to the NE relative to the fix, but only the outbound leg is towards the NE and the inbound leg is towards the SW. And, from all your descriptions, the hold direction looks to be always the direction of the outbound leg. Is this correct?
Click to expand...

The hold direction (not to be confused with turn direction) is what side of the fix VOR you are to keep the plane on, but yes, if they tell you to hold east, you stay east of the fix/vor. The only way to stay east of the vor/fix is to fly your outbound leg eastwards. So when you hear "Hold east..." remember to keep the plane east of the vor/fix.


I think you have NE and NW confused if talking about my second diagram. Edit: Nevermind, I see you said blue. Hold NE means stay NE of the fix. You can't fly an inbound leg NE and stay NE of the fix. ;)
 
Last edited:
skidoo said:
This is what I have had trouble with too. And, yours is a great answer. But, it still is easily confused. If the first bold is true, then shouldn't the direction be corrected to the Red bold above? And, if so, then you demonstrate how easy it is to get confused even from those experienced.
Click to expand...

No. I meant the inbound leg. The outbound leg will be offset from the radial and the direction to the outbound leg will not necessarily be in the same 45 degree segment.
 
John Collins said:
One point of clarification. The direction from the fix is describing where the inbound leg is in relation to the fix, not the entire holding pattern. So ask the question, if I were at the fix, which direction from the fix is the inbound leg located. The inbound leg is the only leg that one uses navigation.

If the hold is at a VOR, the direction will always be along the holding radial, so radial 040 would be hold north east. The only ambiguity is the direction of the turns, standard (right turns) or non standard (left turns).

If instead you are holding at a DME distance on a radial, there are two sides of the fix and two turn directions, or 4 combinations. So hold NE on the 10 DME, 040 radial, the inbound leg is to the NE of the 10 DME. The other side of the fix would be hold SW on 10 DME, 040 radial.

The most ambiguity would be at an intersection between two VORs where you could hold on either radial, on the closer side or further side of the intersection, which makes 4 possible directions each with standard or non standard turns or a total of 8 possible patterns. To distinguish between these possibilities, you are told the VOR, radial, direction from the fix for the inbound leg, and direction of turn.
Click to expand...

So, as you're inbound to a DME fix, the DG should roughly align with the holding direction. GOT IT!

Don't confuse me with intersections....yet
 
Jaybird180 said:
So, as you're inbound to a DME fix, the DG should roughly align with the holding direction. GOT IT!

Don't confuse me with intersections....yet
Click to expand...

Noooooooooooooooooooooo. See my second set of pictures.
 
...and then after I post, I see there are several posters that posted while I was diagramming, thinking, etc.
 
The direction from the holding fix is to where the inbound leg is located, this is not the same as the direction you fly the inbound leg, which is the reciprocal.

So to draw your picture of the hold, locate the fix and radial. Draw the inbound leg from the fix along the radial in the direction NE, SE, as given in the hold instruction. The arrow for direction of flight along the inbound leg is at the fix. Now draw the turn in the appropriate direction from the fix for 180 degrees. Now draw the outbound leg parallel to the inbound leg, finally draw the the 180 degree turn back to the inbound leg.
 
John Collins said:
The direction from the holding fix is to where the inbound leg is located, this is not the same as the direction you fly the inbound leg, which is the reciprocal.

So to draw your picture of the hold, locate the fix and radial. Draw the inbound leg from the fix along the radial in the direction NE, SE, as given in the hold instruction. The arrow for direction of flight along the inbound leg is at the fix. Now draw the turn in the appropriate direction from the fix for 180 degrees. Now draw the outbound leg parallel to the inbound leg, finally draw the the 180 degree turn back to the inbound leg.
Click to expand...

Or just look at some diagrams in post #79 :)
 
EdFred -
Looking at your diagram - the point of the hold direction (NW, NE, SW, SE) seems redundant and the source of the confusion. If told to hold on the 315 radial, I don't see how telling me NW or SE clairifies things...only tells which side of the racetrack is longer. NOTE: this pertains to DME holds

A better suggestion would be (for DME holds) to specify the fix location (eg 315 degrees radial 10 DME) - now I know where the fix is located in 2D space then tell me what orientation (DG indication) my inbound leg should be (can be 360degree orientation) and the length of that leg.

Maybe I need to study one single source for this part of IR flying and holds is the area that caused much grief, enough to recess my self-study...too many different ways of saying the same thing and I think it confused me.

I'll try and come back to this thread tomorrow when my head clears.

Thanks for the help though.

You and John have different ways of saying it. I HOPE you're saying the same thing:confused:
 
Last edited:
John Collins said:
The direction from the holding fix is to where the inbound leg is located, snip...
Click to expand...

At the same time, the direction from the holding fix is to where the outbound leg is also located, in the general direction such as NE for Ed's Blue diagram. Since describing it in this manner, it can lead to confusion.
 
Jaybird180 said:
So, as you're inbound to a DME fix, the DG should roughly align with the holding direction. GOT IT!
Click to expand...
No. Look at Ed's second DME fix diagram. The hold is NW of the fix, and the DG on the inbound leg will align to the SE (it should read 135, neglecting wind correction).

With holds at DME fixes along a radial from a VOR, the cardinal direction just tells you which side of the fix (along the radial) you're staying on as you hold. Your inbound direction will always be toward the fix, whatever direction that might be that gets you back to the fix from the side you're holding on. That could be either the radial (if you're holding between the VOR and the fix), or its reciprocal (if you're holding on the side of the fix opposite the VOR).
 
skidoo said:
At the same time, the direction from the holding fix is to where the outbound leg is also located, in the general direction such as NE for Ed's Blue diagram. Since describing it in this manner, it can lead to confusion.
Click to expand...

Don't shoot the messenger. I am only trying to describe what it means. The outbound leg can be to the NW of the fix while the inbound leg is to the N of the fix.
 
Jaybird, if you never have a problem identifying where a hold is and how to enter it based only on the "numbers" and without the assistance of a general direction then disregard it. It was obviously not meant for you, so disregard it. But it is valuable for the many out there without your innate ability immediately and without error orient themselves based only on the numbers, so please don't take the attitude that "it doesn't apply to me so it should not be there for anyone else."

So can you do

"hold on the XYZ VOR 130° radial, one-zero–mile fix" without the direction?
 
Jaybird180 said:
EdFred -
Looking at your diagram - the point of the hold direction (NW, NE, SW, SE) seems redundant and the source of the confusion. If told to hold on the 315 radial, I don't see how telling me NW or SE clairifies things...only tells which side of the racetrack is longer. NOTE: this pertains to DME holds

A better suggestion would be (for DME holds) to specify the fix location (eg 315 degrees radial 10 DME) - now I know where the fix is located in 2D space then tell me what orientation (DG indication) my inbound leg should be (can be 360degree orientation) and the length of that leg.

Maybe I need to study one single source for this part of IR flying and holds is the area that caused much grief, enough to recess my self-study...too many different ways of saying the same thing and I think it confused me.

I'll try and come back to this thread tomorrow when my head clears.

Thanks for the help though.

You and John have different ways of saying it. I HOPE you're saying the same thing:confused:
Click to expand...

For holding over a VOR it is redundant.

For the DME fix, look at my diagrams and if it's reworded this way does it help?

At the 8DME on the 315 radial of XYZ VOR, hold northwest of the fix.
or
At the 8DME on the 315 radial of XYZ VOR, hold southeast of the fix.



It sounds like you like a + b + c = 0 as opposed to
c = -(a + b)
even though both say the same thing
 
midlifeflyer said:
But it doesn't. The cardinal direction isn't a course; it doesn't really tell you anything about course itself other than where it generally is in relation to the holding fix. It's primarily for situational awareness. If anything, it should prevent the pilot flying the wrong course.

"Hold northwest of the XYZ VOR." All it tells me is that the holding pattern is located northwest of the VOR.

Code: 
   \       N
    J      |
      1    |
        8  |
          0
W---------FIX--------E
           |\
           | \
           |  \ 
           |   \
           S    \


If I then hear a radial or course that I think is southeast of the VOR, I immediately know something is wrong, either with the instruction or the way I understood it. Try it with one of the (correctly stated) DME fix examples, especially one where the holding course is, for example, south of the VOR but north of the holding fix. Once accepted into our thinking, it should clarify rather than confuse.
Click to expand...
This, with apologies to Mark for the edit. They want you to be able to find the airway/course to hold on.

dtuuri
 
Last edited:
holding at an intersection.jpg

I typed this in, previewed the post, then like an idiot, I then promptly closed the window, all was lost, time to redo it.:mad2:

Like I said previously, the cardinal direction is used to distinguish which side of an intersection, DME fix, or waypoint that a hold is located on. It is redundant for a hold at a VOR as the radial and cardinal direction of the hold are the same.

I cutoff the ID for Vance VORTAC, so I added the name via text on the chart. The intersection at BOWMA has 4 possible locations for a holding pattern inbound leg, two on the 156 degree radial of Columbia and 2 on the 243 degree radial of Vance VORTAC.

If you receive a hold instruction:

Hold southeast of BOWMA intersection on the 156 degree radial of Columbia, you will use the orange inbound leg as it is to the southeast of the intersection.

Hold northwest of BOWMA intersection on the 156 degree radial of Columbia, you will use the red inbound leg as it is to the northwest of the intersection.

Hold northeast of BOWMA intersection on the 243 degree radial of Vance, you will use the green inbound leg as it is to the northeast of the intersection.

Hold southwest of BOWMA intersection on the 243 degree radial of Vance, you will use the blue inbound leg as it is to the southwest of the intersection.

Once you have drawn the inbound leg of the hold, the rest of the pattern is drawn using right turns unless instructed in the clearance to use left turns.
 
Here's a prime example of the importance of precise terminology:
A United DC-8 crew flew into the side of a mountain one night because the controller used sloppy communications and, more importantly in my opinion, the crew didn't draw a plus sign through the fix, ala Mark's post #24, and check the chart for a bonafide holding course with a published MEA. Had they done so, the sloppy holding instructions would have been a moot point. See page 38 for the approach chart at the time to see what I mean. They were to "hold north", but were meant to hold on the inbound course for the approach (331°). Instead, they--held north, on the 360° radial, and they all died.

dtuuri
 
John Collins said:
View attachment 28738

I typed this in, previewed the post, then like an idiot, I then promptly closed the window, all was lost, time to redo it.:mad2:

Like I said previously, the cardinal direction is used to distinguish which side of an intersection, DME fix, or waypoint that a hold is located on. It is redundant for a hold at a VOR as the radial and cardinal direction of the hold are the same.

I cutoff the ID for Vance VORTAC, so I added the name via text on the chart. The intersection at BOWMA has 4 possible locations for a holding pattern inbound leg, two on the 156 degree radial of Columbia and 2 on the 243 degree radial of Vance VORTAC.

If you receive a hold instruction:

Hold southeast of BOWMA intersection on the 156 degree radial of Columbia, you will use the orange inbound leg as it is to the southeast of the intersection.

Hold northwest of BOWMA intersection on the 156 degree radial of Columbia, you will use the red inbound leg as it is to the northwest of the intersection.

Hold northeast of BOWMA intersection on the 243 degree radial of Vance, you will use the green inbound leg as it is to the northeast of the intersection.

Hold southwest of BOWMA intersection on the 243 degree radial of Vance, you will use the blue inbound leg as it is to the southwest of the intersection.

Once you have drawn the inbound leg of the hold, the rest of the pattern is drawn using right turns unless instructed in the clearance to use left turns.
Click to expand...

This is another great depiction of holds! Only thing that I may disagree with is the terminology of "inbound leg as it is to the" which can lead to confusion of a newby without the diagram. I would rather see it described as "inbound leg as it is from the" because as you are referencing everything relative to the fix, the inbound leg is coming from that direction. By saying that the leg is "to" that direction could confuse the newby by thinking they may need to "go to" that direction. They way you describe it as the leg is "to" that direction may be correct, but it requires the pilot to think with a reversal. I think it is much simpler to think that the cardinal direction is also the cardinal heading for the outbound leg. No need to think "ok the inbound leg it that direction, but I need to head the opposite"...
 
dtuuri said:
This, with apologies to Mark for the edit. They want you to be able to find the airway/course to hold on.

dtuuri
Click to expand...
Ah, as in "Hold northwest of the XYZ VOR on J180."

Good example - no way at all to tell which side without it.

Then, it just becomes consistency and standardization in the way ATC gives holding (or any) instructions as an aid to understanding and the avoidance of errors - an ultmate goal of the IFR system.
 
John Collins said:
View attachment 28738

I typed this in, previewed the post, then like an idiot, I then promptly closed the window, all was lost, time to redo it.:mad2:

Like I said previously, the cardinal direction is used to distinguish which side of an intersection, DME fix, or waypoint that a hold is located on. It is redundant for a hold at a VOR as the radial and cardinal direction of the hold are the same.

I cutoff the ID for Vance VORTAC, so I added the name via text on the chart. The intersection at BOWMA has 4 possible locations for a holding pattern inbound leg, two on the 156 degree radial of Columbia and 2 on the 243 degree radial of Vance VORTAC.

If you receive a hold instruction:

Hold southeast of BOWMA intersection on the 156 degree radial of Columbia, you will use the orange inbound leg as it is to the southeast of the intersection.

Hold northwest of BOWMA intersection on the 156 degree radial of Columbia, you will use the red inbound leg as it is to the northwest of the intersection.

Hold northeast of BOWMA intersection on the 243 degree radial of Vance, you will use the green inbound leg as it is to the northeast of the intersection.

Hold southwest of BOWMA intersection on the 243 degree radial of Vance, you will use the blue inbound leg as it is to the southwest of the intersection.

Once you have drawn the inbound leg of the hold, the rest of the pattern is drawn using right turns unless instructed in the clearance to use left turns.
Click to expand...

:goofy::goofy::goofy:
 
weilke said:
On my IR checkride, I was planning my elaborate hold entry when the DPE just said: I dont care how you get into the hold just dont scare me.
Click to expand...

Pretty much my experience - had the Examiner go over the types of holds in the oral - and then when we got in the airplane - he said the same thing when we did one for real - and then a course reversal . . . as long as you get in the hold and enter the reversal from the protected side - thats all that matters at the end of the day . . .
 
CT Arrow said:
Remember the freightdog rule: If your given a hold, pull the power back long before you get to the hold. Hopefully by the time you get there, ATC will cancel the hold. If not, you are already slowed down to hold as instructed.
Click to expand...

That is the way - most GA inbound holds are for other aircraft on the approach - you'll rarely get one to a) a towered airport or b) Class C or B . .. and then you'll be able to tell whats up there because you'll get the hold 1000 MSL above the final approach course to space you for the fast mover coming in behind you . . .

that all said most times you get a vector instead of a hold and are usually told why . . .
 
Does anyone know of a book or software that will allow me to drill holds and planning them with ABCD choices?
 
Jaybird180 said:
Does anyone know of a book or software that will allow me to drill holds and planning them with ABCD choices?
Click to expand...
Nah. Print this.
Holding software.jpg​

Drop in a heading, then pencil in your pattern to see the entry. It's 'software' (paper kind), defaulted for standard (right) turns. For non-standard you need hardware--a window. Hold it up to the glass and use the other side. :)

dtuuri
 
The easiest way to figure out the hold entry is to draw it on the chart and visualize it. Once the pattern is drawn, the entry type is easily seen.

If you can't draw the pattern, the next best choice is to visualize it on your DG or HSI. The key to determining any holding pattern is to figure out the outbound heading. If a cardinal direction is provided, the outbound heading will match up. If the hold is at a VOR, the outbound heading will always be the same as the radial. If the hold is at a NDB, the outbound heading will always be the reciprocal of the hold bearing. If you are holding on a DME fix, an intersection, or a waypoint, the outbound heading is one of two choices, the radial or its reciprocal, and the one that matches the cardinal directions will be the outbound heading.

Once you have determined the outbound heading, locate it on your DG. Imagine the holding pattern on your DG by mentally drawing a line from the edge of the DG at the outbound heading to the center of the DG, This is the inbound leg. Now continue the visualization for a standard pattern by imagining a 180 degree in the center of the DG around to the right and then parallel to the inbound leg. At the edge of the DG, complete the hold with another 180 degree turn to connect to the inbound leg.

Here is hold southwest on the 240 degree radial, a parallel entry:

hold southwest 240 radial parallel entry.jpg

Here is hold northwest on the 300 degree radial, a teardrop entry:

hold northwest 300 radial teardrop.jpg

Here is hold southeast on the 120 degree radial, a direct entry:

hold southeast 120 radial direct entryjpg.jpg

The way I was taught by a United Airline Captain back in the early 1970's was to use a technique known as right thumb right pattern. By placing your thumb on the DG at about the 90 degree to the right of your heading to the holding fix, you cover up about 20 degrees with your thumb (please excuse my graphics). Mentally divide the DG up into three segments as shown on the graphic below. Locate the outbound heading on the DG and determine the type of entry required:

right thumb right pattern.jpg

If the pattern was left turns, just put your left thumb on the left side and form the mirror image for the sectors.
 
The books do overly complicate holding. In most circumstances, it's easier and safe to use the direct entry method when coming from "behind" the fix and the parallel method when approaching from "in front of the fix."

In the first instance, you simply cross the fix, turn to the outbound heading in the proper direction, then out for the specified time/distance, turn back inbound and fly directly to the fix...established.

In the second, you cross the fix, turn to the outbound course, fly out the specified time/distance, then turn back "inside the hold" and fly directly to back to the fix ...established.
 
SbestCFII said:
The books do overly complicate holding. In most circumstances, it's easier and safe to use the direct entry method when coming from "behind" the fix and the parallel method when approaching from "in front of the fix."

In the first instance, you simply cross the fix, turn to the outbound heading in the proper direction, then out for the specified time/distance, turn back inbound and fly directly to the fix...established.

In the second, you cross the fix, turn to the outbound course, fly out the specified time/distance, then turn back "inside the hold" and fly directly to back to the fix ...established.
Click to expand...

The book is the book. CFI-I's shouldn't be trumping the book.

Having said that, at 120 knots there is a lot of room for error, but nonetheless it is error.

In jets, though, where holding is typically done at maximum holding speed for efficiency, the entries are much more critical. When we had sim checks we were allowed a 5 degree tolerance on entry, otherwise you had to repeat doing it correctly.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top