Teaching new students with old E6-B

Swampfox201

Swampfox201

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Todd W.
When I instructed back in the early 90's we required all our students to buy a manual E6-B. I just spent that last hour messing with mine and relearning how to use it. I never use it anymore. I have an iPod with Foreflight that I use now.

Question for all you flight instructors: Are you required to teach a student how to use a manual E6-B or if they show up with their fancy electronic version do you let them use it and never introduce them to the old style one?

Todd
 
I show em how to use one and "require" them to use it to plan at least one cross country.
 
Swampfox201 said:
When I instructed back in the early 90's we required all our students to buy a manual E6-B. I just spent that last hour messing with mine and relearning how to use it. I never use it anymore. I have an iPod with Foreflight that I use now.

Question for all you flight instructors: Are you required to teach a student how to use a manual E6-B or if they show up with their fancy electronic version do you let them use it and never introduce them to the old style one?

Todd
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I'm not sure that there's a requirement, although you still have to use either an electronic or manual E6B to take the Knowledge Test. I doubt that they'd let a student bring Foreflight into the test...

I still teach my students with the manual E6B. It's amazing how using it persistently will actually make it a useful tool. I think the real value is helping the students visualize some of the wind calculations, and appreciate the ability to really come up with good data with a simple tool that does not require batteries.

Another key is that I use it myself for quick calculations, so my students see it being used, and useful. If they see that their instructor "never uses" something, then do you really expect them to think it important? And yet how often do we hear about pilots running out of fuel, etc... A lot of this may indeed come back to instructors not teaching the importance of being able to make some good calculations on the fly with simple tools.

Ryan
 
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There are so many electronic versions that I can't be expected to know how to operate them all and then teach my student. While the logic is similar, there are too many subtle differences that I don't bother with the electronic ones. If they want to learn them on their own they can. So pretty much they are going to have to use the mechanical E6-B. Besides batteries never go dead in the mechanical one.
 
Thanks guys. I can remember one instructor I worked with not wanting to buy an E6-B because he would just use his students. The examiner argued he should buy one because of the same things you guys posted.

I always liked the way you can visualize the wind correction angle vs. just having an electric version spit a number at you.
 
I have my student fill out a navigation log using an E6B. It pretty quickly demonstrates that the E6B is actually faster and easier to use than any electronic one I have seen.
If they want a electronic one it is fine with me, but I don't recommend it.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
One thing though... try to get a smaller E6B if possible. I carry the CPU-26A/P version - which actually fits into one of my kneeboard's side panels. Makes it MUCH more practical to carry, and thus use.

Ryan
 
RyanShort1 said:
One thing though... try to get a smaller E6B if possible. I carry the CPU-26A/P version - which actually fits into one of my kneeboard's side panels. Makes it MUCH more practical to carry, and thus use.

Ryan
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Until you get old and need bi-focals. Then the big ones will be the ones you'll be buying.
 
Okay this is my two pence, take it as you will.

I've practiced with pen and paper maps. I've learned to use a manual e6b. I've turned off the GPS.

Did I say I did all that? More like my instructor liked the following idea.

You can't count on batteries is my thought. Things (especially electronics) break is my thought. Yeah, it's unlikely that the GPS, iPad, iPhone, et al., would all break or die at the same time. Still, I find myself more confident in my skill to NOT get lost and calculate a course / fuel quickly.

This helped me develop MY confidence, it may not apply to others.
 
Bobcat1 said:
Until you get old and need bi-focals. Then the big ones will be the ones you'll be buying.
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+1, unfortunately.

I had an E6B watch that I used a lot for simple calculations (especially money conversion rates when traveling overseas).
Put it away five years ago, as I can't read out anymore.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk
 
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I'm all for the wizzbang new stuff but if you don't teach the basics, you're short changing your students. Some day, the only thing they will have is a manual device whether this is some remote field they decided to go on a discovery flight or the electronic device's batteries gave up.
Or to put it another way, just watch some clerk in a store try to make change when their register only tells them the customer charge was 3.36 and you hand them 10.50.
 
RyanShort1 said:
I'm not sure that there's a requirement, although you still have to use either an electronic or manual E6B to take the Knowledge Test. I doubt that they'd let a student bring Foreflight into the test...

I still teach my students with the manual E6B. It's amazing how using it persistently will actually make it a useful tool. I think the real value is helping the students visualize some of the wind calculations, and appreciate the ability to really come up with good data with a simple tool that does not require batteries.

Another key is that I use it myself for quick calculations, so my students see it being used, and useful. If they see that their instructor "never uses" something, then do you really expect them to think it important? And yet how often do we hear about pilots running out of fuel, etc... A lot of this may indeed come back to instructors not teaching the importance of being able to make some good calculations on the fly with simple tools.

Ryan
Click to expand...


You are correct about Foreflight for the knowledge test. I took my written in April and he confiscated my Iphone for the duration. It was no problem since I went to college so long ago that I earned an Electrical Engineering degree with nothing but a slide rule and CRC tables.
 
I used an electronic (sporty's) in 1996, and didn't touch an E6-B until I became a CFI and wanted to show it to my student.

I don't care (nor does the FAA) what the student uses as long as he understands the underlying principles. The only math that the E6b does that can't be done in the head (easily) is the computation of the wind triangle (correction angle or crosswinds), since that's trigonometry and unless someone has the sine/cosine functions memorized they'll need to look them up.

I think as a teacher you need to be able to clearly explain the problem, how it gets solved, and show the tools that can make solving it easier, whether it's a mechanical computer or an electronic one.
 
I agree Tim and only a good teacher understands that. Different people visualize and understand things in different ways.

I had a Physics professor in college that I've always thought was the best teacher I ever saw. He would explain something and then look into everyones eyes. If he saw someone without the light bulb, he would explain the concept in a different way. He was so good, he rarely had to explain it more than twice, but he really knew how to explain such concepts and make SURE that everyone "got it" before moving on.

Doc
 
On the ground, I mostly use an electronic one on my iphone now or an online flight planner that spits out a precalculated flight plan...but I did all of my private training with the manual one only.

The manual e6b fits in my kneeboard pocket and I prefer to use that in flight rather than trying to fiddle with my phone. YMMV, I assume that the stand alone electronic e6b's are more user friendly than the iphone app but I don't have any issues with the manual one so I just use that...
 
I learned with a manual E6B and i'm actually proficient at using it. I don't know how much longer that will last however...
 
My proficiency with the E6B has fallen to the point where I have to dig out the darn book for some things with it.

Train like you fight, as they say... for those instructors who insist they can't learn other tools or at least help a student figure out what to do with them on their own, I say that any good firearms instructor can pick up any weapon and figure out how to fire it safely downrange.

Instructors have a relationship with new Primary students where they can "dictate" certain tools. Older pilots will just find a different instructor who's not as set in their ways. Or if they really want instruction from that instructor for other reasons, they'll put up with the weird stuff just long enough to learn whatever it was they intended to learn, and then go back to using their own chosen tools later on.

I *can* dig out and use the E6B, but it's not my "weapon of choice" these days.
 
Swampfox201 said:
Question for all you flight instructors: Are you required to teach a student how to use a manual E6-B
Click to expand...
No.
or if they show up with their fancy electronic version do you let them use it and never introduce them to the old style one?
Click to expand...
Depends on whether or not they can do a time/speed/distance/wind problem in flight without losing control of the plane while operating the electronic computer. My instructing experience suggests that's a lot harder with the electronic devices than with an old-fashioned whiz wheel, but if they can do it, mighty fine. Fact is, it doesn't matter what method you use (E-6B slide-style, CR-type circular, electronic calculator, iPad, mental math, whatever) as long as you get the right answer fast enough to meet the PTS requirement. So, as an instructor, you let the trainee use whatever s/he uses best in flight.

However, I think a CFI should know how to use and teach them all.
 
Swampfox201 said:
Thanks guys. I can remember one instructor I worked with not wanting to buy an E6-B because he would just use his students. The examiner argued he should buy one because of the same things you guys posted.
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I don't need my own E-6B in order to teach a student how to use his/hers. Would that examiner say I need to buy one of every type of aviation calculator that exists? :rolleyes: I think not.

Of course, having grown up and gone through engineering school on a slide rule back before electronic calculators existed, I have a significant edge on most of my trainees and most instructors these days when it coes to the E-6B. I had a pocket-sized circular slide rule all the way back in junior high (in some social situations you just didn't want a slide rule hanging from your belt ;)), so learning the E-6B and remembering how to use it never was and never has been an issue for me.
 
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Reading this thread makes me wish there was an iPad app that showed the wind correction triangles when you input the numbers.

Ernie
 
All the above notwithstanding, the wind side of the E-6B provides a graphic representation of wind effects that makes it much easier for the pilot to visualize the issue, and thus to make mental estimates of the effects when only a rough calculation is needed. But that's not something that can't be taught in other ways.
 
On a 2,000+ NM cross-country last week I had a panel-mount KLN90B, a yoke-mount Garmin 196 and an iPad running Foreflight (with other E6B-type apps installed as well), all at the same time. And in case all those failed I could still run Foreflight and the other apps on the iPhone in my pocket.

Even with all that going I still pulled the manual E6B out of the map pocket now and again to do quick density altitude and "Plan B" time/distance computations. It's an old trick for this old dog, but it works. :)
 
I learned the manual E6B, and used it for my written. I'm certainly glad I learned how to use it, and would recommend other students learn it as well. That said, after taking my written, I promptly forgot how to use it after putting various E6B apps on my Android phone. I use this one currently: https://market.android.com/details?id=com.nathan.e6b

And here's one that I used for a bit, just because I liked the graphical representation of the wind data (as mentioned by several above)
https://market.android.com/details?id=com.avdroid.apps.windcomp
 
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MBDiagMan said:
It will last until you die as long as you keep using it. "Use it or lose it."
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The "problem" is that I can just punch my waypoints into foreflight and it will calculate everything I would use the e6b for on a normal flight. Estimated time, est ground speed based on winds aloft, and fuel burn.

That said I have made several x/c's by VOR and pilotage only. Recently on a trip to ILM the iphone's crappy internal GPS kept losing fix... the 152 I was in had no GPS so I was forced (ha) to navigate by VOR :yikes:
 
The thing is..for most of the calculations that need to be made..they can be made in your head and it'll be accurate enough. The variables you plug into the E6B in the first place are less than accurate so the end result isn't much better then what is in my head anyways.

There is value in learning how to plan a flight on a nav log with everything done with a manual E6B. The value is learning the relationships and everything one should think about. The actual value of the navlog in flight, is less than spectacular, because of all the variables.

Even if all your fancy electronics die in flight. Do you really need a manual E6B to figure out how long it'll take to go 300 miles at 120 knots and how much fuel that'll take? Absolute precision isn't required when the data coming in isn't of much precision.
 
I think the E6B the way it was taught when I went through which was basically you used it for everything for PP training and then for what it did for you most conveniently after that. I think every pilot should know how to use it and every plane should have one in the glove box. If for nothing else it's a novelty item to teach passengers how to use and to amaze little kids with the calculating abilities of a whiz wheel, no batteries required. There are times where if I need to make a set of of calculation, I'll grabv whichever I see first. Reality is though now with my panel, I have no need for any of that. Everything is given to me in final values. The wind component scale thing is great because it lets you plan weather diversions to best advantage.
 
jesse said:
The thing is..for most of the calculations that need to be made..they can be made in your head and it'll be accurate enough. The variables you plug into the E6B in the first place are less than accurate so the end result isn't much better then what is in my head anyways.
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For those of us lucky enough to have been born with a head for numbers, I agree. However, I've had plenty of low-experience trainees who simply lack that facility with numbers, and for them, a computational device is essential. Yeah, they'll probably develop a feel for time, heading, and distance eventually as they build flight experience, but not in 40 hours, and maybe not in 400 hours.

Figuring timed turns is another task like that -- some folks can't just say 50 degrees divided by 3 is 17 seconds as quick as it took to type that. For those folks, I have tricks using cockpit instruments to help, and that makes all the difference in the world for them.
 
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jesse said:
The thing is..for most of the calculations that need to be made..they can be made in your head and it'll be accurate enough. The variables you plug into the E6B in the first place are less than accurate so the end result isn't much better then what is in my head anyways.

There is value in learning how to plan a flight on a nav log with everything done with a manual E6B. The value is learning the relationships and everything one should think about. The actual value of the navlog in flight, is less than spectacular, because of all the variables.

Even if all your fancy electronics die in flight. Do you really need a manual E6B to figure out how long it'll take to go 300 miles at 120 knots and how much fuel that'll take? Absolute precision isn't required when the data coming in isn't of much precision.
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Exactly correct. That's why you use the E6B during initial training and not much there after. They are there to keep you safe while you are still learning. It is all right there, no batteries required. If you get confused it is always there to guide you to a correct solution for every calculation you need to make in flight and preflight, and you can work one side one handed. When the electronic units came out we did a one handed "race" with them sitting in the plane, and it was easier to work the wheel. By the time you get past your PP, you should be comfortable enough with the mental gymnastics of flying to have brain power to spare to do confident calculations. I personally think the whiz wheel still has a place in aviation training and always should even if just to preserve the timeline for when Spock needs to buy one....:rolleyes2:
 
jesse said:
The thing is..for most of the calculations that need to be made..they can be made in your head and it'll be accurate enough. The variables you plug into the E6B in the first place are less than accurate so the end result isn't much better then what is in my head anyways.

There is value in learning how to plan a flight on a nav log with everything done with a manual E6B. The value is learning the relationships and everything one should think about. The actual value of the navlog in flight, is less than spectacular, because of all the variables.

Even if all your fancy electronics die in flight. Do you really need a manual E6B to figure out how long it'll take to go 300 miles at 120 knots and how much fuel that'll take? Absolute precision isn't required when the data coming in isn't of much precision.
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Jesse I was waiting to hear your opinion because you have an electronic E6-B program on the market.
 
My 13 year old son video taped himself pitching and imported the footage into some video editing software. Using the software he was able to determine how long it took the pitch to travel 60 ft.

Knowing the distance and the time we used my wizwheel E6-B to determine how fast in mph he was pitching.
 
Swampfox201 said:
Jesse I was waiting to hear your opinion because you have an electronic E6-B program on the market.
Click to expand...

PT Barnum made a fortune selling people what they didn't need but couldn't live without. Ron Popiel as well...:D
 
I learned to fly in 2009 and I learned to use the E6B. In my checkride I was asked to compute GS with it by the DPE. I also manually filled out navlogs and such.

Today, I plan my VFR cross countries with Skyvector and use the navlog information from Skyvector. I still use the E6B to compute WCA for preflight but I can't say I use the E6B for anything besides that... :( If the winds aloft don't look too bad, I just go.

I use Naviator GPS on my Android phone as my primary navigational aid and paper Sectionals with a line drawn on it for backup. With the GPS, I know exactly what my GS is and exactly what my track on course is. I can still say most of my flight hours were done without GPS though. I only got Naviator in July 2011. :D
 
I used the old slide-style E6-B when I learned to fly in the '70s. When I went Commercial in the '90s everyone was using the CR circular whiz wheels. I bought the 3-1/2" one and kept in in my shirt pocket. Now my eyes don't focus up close so good anymore and I use a six-inch CR. I wonder if anyone makes a nine-inch version...

Dan
 
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