Tales of a New Engine

[Len Lanetti]

Well, the new engine is at the shop waiting to go into the Mooney.

The firewall is all cleaned up and looks like new.

Except one little problem. Engine mount had some cracks as determined by scientific testing (dunk in a tank of dye, current passed through the mount so that dye is attracted to any cracks which are become visable under a black light). 2 weeks to wait while the mount gets repaired via welding.

Meanwhile, core is going back to Lycoming. Everyone pray that all components are considered good cores so I get my core deposit back.

Going to add an engine sump and cylinder heater before it gets buttoned back up. This engine is also a wide deck variation of the O360 and it has an oil filter. The old engine was a narrow deck and just had a screen.

New mixture, prop and throttle cables have been installed and they are in the proper order (mixture far right, prop in the middle and throttle on the left). Previously the prop control was on the far right. Mechanic says he couldn't get a blue knob for the prop which I thought was odd. He also has to locate a throttle knob as the cable is sold separate from the knob.

We didn't make our annual trip to Myrtle Beach which we normally do at either Thanksgiving or between Christmas and New Years. The kids have an extra week off right after Easter. I'm hoping everything is back together, checked out and I have some money left to make the trip at that time.

;<)

Len

 

[gkainz]

Meanwhile, core is going back to Lycoming. Everyone pray that all components are considered good cores so I get my core deposit back.

Will do!

New mixture, prop and throttle cables have been installed and they are in the proper order (mixture far right, prop in the middle and throttle on the left). Previously the prop control was on the far right.

Do I understand this correctly? You have to retrain your hands for prop and mixture control placement? Could get exciting the first time you reach to pull the prop back and end up cutting off the mixture... prop full forward on final shouldn't be too scary when you push the mixture full rich!

 

[Len Lanetti]

Will do!
Do I understand this correctly? You have to retrain your hands for prop and mixture control placement? Could get exciting the first time you reach to pull the prop back and end up cutting off the mixture... prop full forward on final shouldn't be too scary when you push the mixture full rich!

Greg,

In the air I don't think it is too bad one way or the other. Typically I set 2500 rpm on climb out and leave it there until short final.

I'll probably kill the engine by pulling the mixture when I should be cycling the prop as part of the run up. :<) Anyway, it won't be as bad as when right after getting my ticket and flying solo for the first time in a new type I pulled the mixture instead of the carb heat while on downwind. Which validated the rule "if you do something and the plane doesn't sound right undo what you just did right away".

Actually, I think I'm going to rent an Arrow (closest thing to a Mooney on the rental lines around here) a week or so before the engine work is done. The first few hours in the Mooney are going to be spent doing circles near the airport to break in the engine and make sure everything is running ok. I haven't flown since October or so. I want to go around the pattern a few times before flying the Mooney to find a good place to break in the engine and I think I want to practice some steep spirals without power just in case.

Len

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Other things people are known to add at this time while it is easy to get at; all new hoses (I like the fireshielded type), tach drive cable, I think I saw you post the vac pump, remote oil filter(may not apply to yours), firewall blanket, powdercoat the mount, all new lords hopefully, replace cracked baffles, all new silicone baffle material, EGT/CHT monitor?, ss heatshields.
I think the new controls have a specific shape that your hand can learn so you dont pull the wrong one (you'll have to change some placards too) Mixture is star I think, pointy to 'hurt' an errant hand.

Have fun when you get the plane back, always a special time with a new engine.

 

[Anthony]

Len,

Good luck with the new engine. You should see a nice performance increase I would suspect. Also, is there an STC that allows converting a M20C to and M20E with the 200 HP IO-360? Not that it needs it, but I'm just curious.

 

[Len Lanetti]

Dave,

I thought of the firewall blanket last night and have it on the list to talk to A&P about.

The tach drive is not going to get replaced. I'm going to go with the JPI EDM 900 as soon as it gets approved for certified aircraft. This will actually solve several ah...nits I have. Well, actually, it might not be as soon as it is approved as I have to let bank account recover.

New hoses, new lords mounts, yes to both.

Anthony,

There is an STC for going from the 180HP O360 to the 200HP IO360. Besides the extra cost on the engine and the cost for the STC the induction system is different which means more labor to make it work and it also means a different upper and lower cowling which has a cost to procure and paint and on it goes.

I discussed it with my mechanic for about 45 seconds before determining the extra cost wasn't worth the 20 extra HP. A few weeks later I saw an article in one of the Mooney type magazines that backed me up.

Besides, if I had more than 180HP you Tiger guys would hold it against me when I talk about the blazing speed of my aircraft. :<)

Len

 

[Butler]

Len,
You might want to consider having your prop dynamically balanced. The vibrations that existed that caused your engine mount to crack probably came from the prop, and are probably still present. Static balancing by the prop shop just doesn't get it close enough.

Jim

 

[ejensen]

Dave,

Besides, if I had more than 180HP you Tiger guys would hold it against me when I talk about the blazing speed of my aircraft. :<)

Len

Anthony already know what those 20 horses do)

 

[ejensen]

Len,
You might want to consider having your prop dynamically balanced. The vibrations that existed that caused your engine mount to crack probably came from the prop, and are probably still present. Static balancing by the prop shop just doesn't get it close enough.

Jim

I agree with dynamic balance. When I had my IO360 overhauled, the shop adivsed waiting 100 hours or so to let things settle down before the balance.

Eric

 

[Anthony]

Anthony already know what those 20 horses do)

Yeah, and the retractable gear and C/S prop doesn't hurt either.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

I agree with dynamic balance. When I had my IO360 overhauled, the shop adivsed waiting 100 hours or so to let things settle down before the balance.
Eric

I agree with the dynamic balance too... hey Eric I wonder if they were just covering themselves a bit there with the 100hrs... thinking if the new engine blows up, they don't want any part of it? Well maybe a bit of that, and surely the rings/valves have to seat - and early on, each bang may not be the same as the last one.

 

[Mark S]

Len,

Good luck with the engine break in. Always an exciting time, for sure. Follow the manufacturers instructions and everything will be fine. Take a trip with the plane. Have fun.

Know you are anxious to get back in the air.

Mark

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Thanks for sharing this with us Len. My plane's coming up in the next 24 months. Still running the numbers on upgrade v. selling this plane and purchasing another with more of the upgrade items I'd like. Like kissing frogs though, to find exactly what you want in an late 70s or early 80s Bo, lookin for that princess.

Best,

Dave

 

[ejensen]

I agree with the dynamic balance too... hey Eric I wonder if they were just covering themselves a bit there with the 100hrs... thinking if the new engine blows up, they don't want any part of it? Well maybe a bit of that, and surely the rings/valves have to seat - and early on, each bang may not be the same as the last one.

I think he just wanted to be sure everything was well settled so I didn't have to do again. But 50 would have been enough I imagine.

 

[Gary]

Well, the new engine is at the shop waiting to go into the Mooney.

Len:

Good luck with the core! Do have to recommend the prop balance. The Sensenich Prop people over in Lancaser will do it while you wait!.. Think it was on the order of $150. Makes a big difference!

Gary

 

[Michael]

Len,
You might want to consider having your prop dynamically balanced. The vibrations that existed that caused your engine mount to crack probably came from the prop, and are probably still present. Static balancing by the prop shop just doesn't get it close enough.

Jim

If its anything like my M20C, If i recall correctly, It is bad to run the engine rpm from 1000-1500? or something close to that, I have it marked on my gauge, because of vibrations to the engine mounts caused at these settings.
But I'm sure you know that. and the correct settings I also agree, the 20 extra HP wouldn't add anything except weight to the M20C, 180 is fast enough. Diana and I were coming back from Laughlin a few weeks ago, looked down at the GPS, and our ground speed was 235. of course we did have a slight tailwind . But its amazing how a few mods on these mooneys can add up to a very fast plane.

 

[Henning]

Other things people are known to add at this time while it is easy to get at; all new hoses (I like the fireshielded type), tach drive cable, I think I saw you post the vac pump, remote oil filter(may not apply to yours), firewall blanket, powdercoat the mount, all new lords hopefully, replace cracked baffles, all new silicone baffle material, EGT/CHT monitor?, ss heatshields.
I think the new controls have a specific shape that your hand can learn so you dont pull the wrong one (you'll have to change some placards too) Mixture is star I think, pointy to 'hurt' an errant hand.

Have fun when you get the plane back, always a special time with a new engine.

Is powder coating mounts legal? Looks pretty, but can hide problems.

 

[PoAdeleted5]

No powdercoats on engine mounts.

I don't know if it is "legal" or not, I haven't found an advisory circular stating that it is illegal, but most of the engine mount shops and mechanics seem to think that is the case now.

 

[Len Lanetti]

Tales of a New Engine Continued

Well, the good news is that the engine mount is back and on the plane.

The not so good news is that the new throttle cable does not provide for the micro switch that triggers the gear warning buzzer. Mechanic is working on that issue as I type this. Possibly need to source a different throttle cable but the company that owned the most popular STC for a modern throttle cable was blown away by hurricanes last year.

Trip to Myrtle Beach after Easter is looking doubtful.

Additionally, Karen (wife) has said that I have to fly the plane 10 hours solo before she and the kids get on board.

Len

 

[Anthony]

Re: Tales of a New Engine Continued

Well, the good news is that the engine mount is back and on the plane.

Great Len!


Additionally, Karen (wife) has said that I have to fly the plane 10 hours solo before she and the kids get on board.

Len

Actually, that's not a bad ideas, although 10 hours may be excessive. What's the recommended time for checking the engine after an overhaul?

 

[Tom-D]

Re: Tales of a New Engine Continued

Before I will take one out of sight of land it will have 200 hours on it, (trouble free).

 

[Len Lanetti]

Re: Tales of a New Engine Continued

Before I will take one out of sight of land it will have 200 hours on it, (trouble free).

Tom,

Spoken like a true naval avaitor. :<)

I double think anytime I blast over the bay.

Anthony,

My mechanic is suggesting a break in pretty similar to what is suggested in Lycoming's SB...I will discuss the subtile differences with him prior to the first ride.

Basically I'm going to fly around the airport at an altitude where I'm making a lot of power but high enough to make it back to the runway as required.

Len

 

[pete177]

Re: Tales of a New Engine Continued

ACS Cable out of Arizona, you can get the number from aircraft spruce, will duplicate your original throttle cable to include the indent for the switch. I had one made last year. Works very well. Also had the ram air door cable done. No one else is available with an stc'd cable as I understand it. I'm currently overhauling my 1964 M20 E and I've just sent the prop and mixture cable to Mcfarlane aviation to duplicate. Someone on the aopa board has experience with both companies and thought that mcfarlane aviation made a better cable than acs, so i'll try them.
The engine mount requires two reinforcement plates welded to it, did you have that done already? Did you install a firewall blanket? I'm thinking about that now as well. I'm using the edi system for temps and such. I'm not going to bother with the tach cable right now. Would that be much trouble to replace later once the engine is back on the airplane? Who did you use for the overhaul?

Well, the good news is that the engine mount is back and on the plane.

The not so good news is that the new throttle cable does not provide for the micro switch that triggers the gear warning buzzer. Mechanic is working on that issue as I type this. Possibly need to source a different throttle cable but the company that owned the most popular STC for a modern throttle cable was blown away by hurricanes last year.

Trip to Myrtle Beach after Easter is looking doubtful.

Additionally, Karen (wife) has said that I have to fly the plane 10 hours solo before she and the kids get on board.

Len

 

[John J]

Enjoy the Break in;

It is better than a new car. Just stay close to the airport and let it work hard. Watch the temps and pressures. I did mine early in the morning when it was smooth and wow it is so nice and sweet to hear and feel a new engine working. Have fun

John J

 

[Stache]

A new, rebuilt, or overhauled engine should receive the same start, warm-up, and preflight checks as any other engine. There are some aircraft owners and pilots who would prefer to use low power settings for cruise during the break-in period. This is not recommended. A good break-in requires that the piston rings expand sufficiently to seat with the cylinder walls during the engine break-in period. This seating of the ring with the cylinder wall will only occur when pressures inside the cylinder are great enough to cause expansion of the piston rings. Pressures in the cylinder only become great enough for a good break-in when power settings above 65% are used.



Full power for takeoff and climb during the break-in period is not harmful; it is beneficial, although engine temperatures should be monitored closely to insure that overheating does not occur. Cruise power settings above 65%, and preferably in the 70% to 75% of rated power range should be used to achieve a good engine break-in. It should be remembered that if the new or rebuilt engine is normally aspirated (nonturbocharged), it will be necessary to cruise at the lower altitudes to obtain the required cruise power levels. Density altitudes in excess of 8000 feet (5000 feet is recommended) will not allow the engine to develop sufficient cruise power for a good break-in.



For those who still think that running the engine hard during break-in falls into the category of cruel and unusual punishment, there is one more argument for high power settings during engine break-in. The use of low power settings does not expand the piston rings enough, and a film of oil is left on the cylinder walls. The high temperatures in the combustion chamber will oxidize this oil film so that it creates a condition commonly known as glazing of the cylinder walls. When this happens, the ring break-in process stops, and excessive oil consumption frequently occurs. The bad news is that extensive glazing can only be corrected by removing the cylinders and rehoning the walls. This is expensive, and it is an expense that can be avoided by proper break in procedures.

Stache
A&P/IA

 

[pete177]

A new, rebuilt, or overhauled engine should receive the same start, warm-up, and preflight checks as any other engine.

Stache
A&P/IA

Been doing quite a bit of reading about how to break in a new motor, considering I'll be doing it shortly and nothing I've read, either from lycoming, ECI, Sky Ranch manual, Zypher engines, states that the start, warm up, and prefilight checks are the same. Quite the contrary, very short warm up, quick mag check, preferably moving, do not cylcle the prop or no more than a 200 rpm drop, very slow power application on take off, no full power until you reach 40 knots, stay on the rich side of operation, shallowest climb practical. High power setting is the only thing that is consistent with your post. This is even more true if the engine hasn't been run-in some on the builders test stand, the manuals are very specific about first run in operation. What you've said about ring seating is consistent with the documentation. However, high cht's are to be avoided. CHT's approaching 400 degrees can anneal the rings and cause them to lose their tension. In the final analysis, lesson to anyone with a new motor reading this would be to follow the engine builders direction to the letter and forget about anything you've read here
Pete

 

[Len Lanetti]

More Tales of a New Engine

New cables are stiffer then the original cables and need to be routed and supported carefully. Auto pilot linkage to ailerons was in the way and had to go. I did not trust the auto pilot anyway (it hunted a lot in heading mode and I never tried it in NAV mode - I never wanted to spend money on it to get it tuned up) and will get some useful load back as I'm sure all the auto pilot parts together must weigh at least a few pounds.

A&P says read in another week.

Len

 

[Michael]

More Tales of a New Engine

New cables are stiffer then the original cables and need to be routed and supported carefully. Auto pilot linkage to ailerons was in the way and had to go. I did not trust the auto pilot anyway (it hunted a lot in heading mode and I never tried it in NAV mode - I never wanted to spend money on it to get it tuned up) and will get some useful load back as I'm sure all the auto pilot parts together must weigh at least a few pounds.

A&P says read in another week.

Len

Len...Care to get rid of that AP? Was it the stock AP for the M20C?

 

[Dick Madding]

78 T210 TSIO-520 overhauled, with new mounts, accessories, and hoses. Also took opportunity to insulate cowl flap cables from engine heat.
1. During down time in the summer, oil congealed in the turbocharger controller line, causing no end of problems, finally resulting in beating the maintenance supervisor over the head with Mike Busch's Troubleshooting the Turbocharger. Supe got his uniform covered with oil when he used an air hose to demonstrate to me that there was no clog.
2. Installer failed to properly isolate the turbocharger induction tube from the air inlet duct. They used a bead of orange high temperature silicone along each side of the gap, which did nothing to prevent chafing. No interference occurred for 3 years until a mechanic moved the induction tube during an annual. The result: chafed duct downstream of the filter, sending fine, soft aluminium chips into the turbocharger. The result was difficulty in stabilizing manifold pressure from climb to cruise configuration, which was the same symptom exhibited by the clogged controller oil line. The true cause was not discovered until the next annual. Could have been a catastrophe if turbocharger had disintegrated. A piece of blue flexible baffling now resides between the duct and the tube. Time in service: 350 hr.
3. At 25 hr. in service, the high flow bypass valve in the engine fuel pump stuck, causing the engine to run over rich on takeoff on the first really cool fall morning. Fellow pilot along for the trip provided his new noise-cancelling headsets, and chided me for babying the new engine as I was sensing something not quite right about acceleration. Began pulling mixture just after rotation, and seeing what I thought was the manifold pressure decreasing. He shouted to keep flying to avoid an off-airport landing just as 3 handhelds commented from the ground: "are you all right up there?", "your airplane is on fire!", and "you're blowing black smoke!". Of course a helicopter was doing hover practice at the end of the taxiway on the left, preventing a left turn to downwind over a harvested bean field and requiring a right turn over a woods. However the fellow pilot took the "black smoke" hint and significantly reduced the mixture, leading to a normal landing in front of about 100 people who had come out of the hangars to see a crash. Turns out what I thought was the manifold pressure decreasing on the gauge was the fuel flow pointer from the right side of the gauge going over the top and coming down the left side MP part of the gauge. Real exciting, and I can see why engine failure in a single can result in a stall/spin ending.
4. A small oil leak was found on one hose connection at initial startup, apparently not an unusual occurrence.

My conclusion: a new engine can produce more real surprises than an old one.

 

[bbchien]

Sigh. How true it is....

 

[wsuffa]

Hi, Dick....

 

[Dick Madding]

Hey, Bill. Dr. Bruce got to try my chocolate chip cookies Thursday, then MGY super lighting system on Saturday- waiting to hear his ice flying saga. He put me on to this site. [Thanks, Dr. B.]

Now we need someone to start an avionics upgrade thread so you and I can relate our horror stories. My autopilot is still at CFA going on two years- I got so mad after 10 trips down there to get it fixed after they broke it that I have been afraid of what I might do if I went back. They must know it, because they haven't called or written . . .

Went MGY to Troy-Oakland [7D2] on 2 separate trips a couple of weeks ago. [7D2 doesn't exist as far as FAA's computers are concerned- only on their maps.] Detroit Approach was great, putting me right thru the big middle of their B space both times, and I heard them opening a couple of flight followings. Bet you can't do that at Cincy!

So where are you on a different airplane?

 

[wsuffa]

Hey, Bill. Dr. Bruce got to try my chocolate chip cookies Thursday, then MGY super lighting system on Saturday- waiting to hear his ice flying saga. He put me on to this site. [Thanks, Dr. B.]

Now we need someone to start an avionics upgrade thread so you and I can relate our horror stories. My autopilot is still at CFA going on two years- I got so mad after 10 trips down there to get it fixed after they broke it that I have been afraid of what I might do if I went back. They must know it, because they haven't called or written . . .

Went MGY to Troy-Oakland [7D2] on 2 separate trips a couple of weeks ago. [7D2 doesn't exist as far as FAA's computers are concerned- only on their maps.] Detroit Approach was great, putting me right thru the big middle of their B space both times, and I heard them opening a couple of flight followings. Bet you can't do that at Cincy!

So where are you on a different airplane?

Indefinite hold on a new plane until I find a new job. Detroit, Cleveland, and New Orleans are the best Bravo approach controls I think I've run across. Houston & Dallas are right up there, too. Chicago, Cincy, Phoenix, and Charlotte are near the bottom of the pack.

 

[Len Lanetti]

Len...Care to get rid of that AP? Was it the stock AP for the M20C?

Michael,

It is a re-branded Cessna autopilot...looks just like the Cessna units except it has really old Mooney artwork and is a different color...Mooney service support was surprised to hear there was still an M20C with that autopilot installed. Mooney only used it in '62 and '63 before switching to the Positive Controll system.

Len

 

[Len Lanetti]

Re: Tales of a New Engine Continued

The engine mount requires two reinforcement plates welded to it, did you have that done already? Did you install a firewall blanket?

Pete,

The engine mount previously had the reinforcement plates.

A&P said there was no room for the firewall blanket, especially since I went with the engine with an oil filter instead of a screen.

Len

 

[sere]

A new, rebuilt, or overhauled engine should receive the same start, warm-up, and preflight checks as any other engine. There are some aircraft owners and pilots who would prefer to use low power settings for cruise during the break-in period. This is not recommended. A good break-in requires that the piston rings expand sufficiently to seat with the cylinder walls during the engine break-in period. This seating of the ring with the cylinder wall will only occur when pressures inside the cylinder are great enough to cause expansion of the piston rings. Pressures in the cylinder only become great enough for a good break-in when power settings above 65% are used.



Full power for takeoff and climb during the break-in period is not harmful; it is beneficial, although engine temperatures should be monitored closely to insure that overheating does not occur. Cruise power settings above 65%, and preferably in the 70% to 75% of rated power range should be used to achieve a good engine break-in. It should be remembered that if the new or rebuilt engine is normally aspirated (nonturbocharged), it will be necessary to cruise at the lower altitudes to obtain the required cruise power levels. Density altitudes in excess of 8000 feet (5000 feet is recommended) will not allow the engine to develop sufficient cruise power for a good break-in.



For those who still think that running the engine hard during break-in falls into the category of cruel and unusual punishment, there is one more argument for high power settings during engine break-in. The use of low power settings does not expand the piston rings enough, and a film of oil is left on the cylinder walls. The high temperatures in the combustion chamber will oxidize this oil film so that it creates a condition commonly known as glazing of the cylinder walls. When this happens, the ring break-in process stops, and excessive oil consumption frequently occurs. The bad news is that extensive glazing can only be corrected by removing the cylinders and rehoning the walls. This is expensive, and it is an expense that can be avoided by proper break in procedures.

Stache
A&P/IA

1st it is good to see you again Stache. Back in 99 I had a deep top done on our Piper Colt. We broke it in a lot like the way you described. After an hour or so flying over the airport I took it out for several long cross country flights until it had about 12 hours on it. Still today it compression check is 78 to 79 in each cylinder and it only burns one qt of oil after 21 to 22 hrs of operation. I beleive the break in is very important.

Take care and keep up the great posts.

sere