Taking the Rear Seats Out of a C182

petrolero

petrolero

Pattern Altitude
Joined
May 1, 2014
Messages
2,399
Location
Denver, CO
Display Name
Display name:
petrolero
I know this is probably not a big deal, but I haven't done it. My mechanic does this every year at annual, of course. How do I take the rear seats out of a C182? Do I need to remove the front seats first and if so, how?

What are the legalities related to flying with the rear bench out? I assume I just need to weigh it and adjust W&B accordingly?

The deal is that I'm flying out solo to meet my brother for a hunt that will include archery, rifle and shotguns - so lots of gear. :goofy:

Weight should not be a problem even with the seats in, but I've carried some of this gear before and it's bulky. So if I don't have a use for the bench, why even take it, etc.
 
petrolero said:
I know this is probably not a big deal, but I haven't done it. My mechanic does this every year at annual, of course. How do I take the rear seats out of a C182? Do I need to remove the front seats first and if so, how?

What are the legalities related to flying with the rear bench out? I assume I just need to weigh it and adjust W&B accordingly?

The deal is that I'm flying out solo to meet my brother for a hunt that will include archery, rifle and shotguns - so lots of gear. :goofy:

Weight should not be a problem even with the seats in, but I've carried some of this gear before and it's bulky. So if I don't have a use for the bench, why even take it, etc.
Click to expand...

Basically you can remove it, but you need a logbook entry and an updated W&B done. My A&P did two W&Bs for me, one with the rear seat and one without.

As for logbook entry, I keep a separate dispatch log for my plane where I log VOR checks, maintenance intervals, etc. The regs don't say an airframe logbook has to be consolidated.

As far as removal, its just six bolts that need to be removed, IIRC. On mine, they can be a little tricky to get at so it's more of a PITA than it should be, IMO. Yours may be easier.
 
Interesting idea about getting a W&B done without the seats. I'll give my shop a call.

Would I be able to do the logbook entry myself?
 
I have never removed the rear seat, but I too have a separate weight and balance for when they are out that was done by an A & P.
 
Having a second baseline W&B is definitely the way to go, especially if you plan on flying frequently with the seat removed. Then all you need to do for a preflight W&B is to use the correct baseline W&B and make calculations for whatever you happen to carry in the way of people and gear.
 
petrolero said:
Interesting idea about getting a W&B done without the seats. I'll give my shop a call.

Would I be able to do the logbook entry myself?
Click to expand...

Or, you could take the seat out, weight it, and use that in your W&B calculations.

My 172 rear seat was 20lbs.

The bolts you take out, put them back in the bolt holes in the plane after the seat is removed. That way you won't lose them, and you know what goes where.
 
Last edited:
I would just pull the seat out and fly the damn thing. These guys probably weigh themselves after taking a crap or eating before a flight. I am sure you are not taking the seat out and adding 1000 lbs in its place right?
Guys.. Would you weigh the shotguns before you put them in?
 
UngaWunga said:
Or, you could take the seat out, weight it, and use that in your W&B calculations.
Click to expand...
I'm pretty certain that's how my mechanic did it, using the diagrams from the POH for the moment arm. I know he didn't reweigh the plane. ;)

I have a W&B in the paperwork for either configuration, so I can put the seat back in if I want without needing a new sign-off on the W&B.
 
The 170 association when to the trouble of asking the chief counsel if this was legal in the 170s. They got a letter saying it was for the 170s. I'm not too sure I'd do it with out a letter saying the same thing for the 180 type.
 
Tom-D said:
The 170 association when to the trouble of asking the chief counsel if this was legal in the 170s. They got a letter saying it was for the 170s. I'm not too sure I'd do it with out a letter saying the same thing for the 180 type.
Click to expand...

What was legal? Taking the seat out?
 
UngaWunga said:
Or, you could take the seat out, weight it, and use that in your W&B calculations.

My 172 rear seat was 20lbs.

The bolts you take out, put them back in the bolt holes in the plane after the seat is removed. That way you won't lose them, and you know what goes where.
Click to expand...

Because you're uninstalling installed equipment you need to recalculate your W&B to be legal.

pigpenracing said:
I would just pull the seat out and fly the damn thing. These guys probably weigh themselves after taking a crap or eating before a flight. I am sure you are not taking the seat out and adding 1000 lbs in its place right?
Guys.. Would you weigh the shotguns before you put them in?
Click to expand...

Did he really need to ask us that? Anything wrong with advising him of the correct way to do it? If he chooses not to, that's his prerogative and his consequences to face should be be ramp checked or get into an incident. It's pretty cheap and easy to do it the right way and have the W&B calculated with the seat out.

azure said:
I'm pretty certain that's how my mechanic did it, using the diagrams from the POH for the moment arm. I know he didn't reweigh the plane. ;)

I have a W&B in the paperwork for either configuration, so I can put the seat back in if I want without needing a new sign-off on the W&B.
Click to expand...

When an A&P reworks the W&B, they weight the item and redo the math. It's pretty rare that they reweigh the plane--usually only on request. As such, this is a pretty cheap and easy thing to do.
 
W&B, and log book entry like mentioned above, no big deal. The physical act of removing the seat is easy, with simple 1/4 inch drive, socket and a wrench. Takes me 5-10 mines, slide both front seats all the way forwards and fold the setbacks on the rear seat forward and lift it out.
 
Brad Z said:
What was legal? Taking the seat out?
Click to expand...

This letter gave the 170 owners authorization for the pilot to remove the rear seat. They do not need to have an A&P to remove it or do any W&B other than a CG for installed, and one for removed.

There is no such authorization for the 172, 180,182,or the 190/5.

So, the question for our 182 owners simple, where do you get authorization in writing to change the type design of the aircraft by removing the rear seat, and making the change for the new CG?
The owner's manual for the 182 is a required placard for airworthiness requirements, changing that is a major change to to the operations of the aircraft. Where would you get authorizations to do that?

IMHO you would need a STC/FA or a letter of authorization to treat this as a minor alteration.
 
Brad Z said:
Provided you're a private pilot or greater, yes. It is considered preventative maintenance under 14 CFR 43 appendix B

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...dd74362&mc=true&node=ap14.1.43_117.a&rgn=div9

You'll need an A&P to do the alternative W&B, of course.
Click to expand...
The act of removing the seat for repairs is not to be confused with flying the aircraft with it removed.

see FAR 43-A as quoted

(a) Major alterations—(1) Airframe major alterations. Alterations of the following parts and alterations of the following types, when not listed in the aircraft specifications issued by the FAA, are airframe major alterations:

(i) Wings.

(ii) Tail surfaces.

(iii) Fuselage.

(iv) Engine mounts.

(v) Control system.

(vi) Landing gear.

(vii) Hull or floats.

(viii) Elements of an airframe including spars, ribs, fittings, shock absorbers, bracing, cowling, fairings, and balance weights.

(ix) Hydraulic and electrical actuating system of components.

(x) Rotor blades.

(xi) Changes to the empty weight or empty balance which result in an increase in the maximum certificated weight or center of gravity limits of the aircraft.
 
Tom-D said:
(xi) Changes to the empty weight or empty balance which result in an increase in the maximum certificated weight or center of gravity limits of the aircraft.
Click to expand...
How does removing the seat change either the maximum certificated weight or the CG limits? :confused:
 
Tom-D said:
The act of removing the seat for repairs is not to be confused with flying the aircraft with it removed.

see FAR 43-A as quoted

(a) Major alterations—(1) Airframe major alterations. Alterations of the following parts and alterations of the following types, when not listed in the aircraft specifications issued by the FAA, are airframe major alterations:

(i) Wings.

(ii) Tail surfaces.

(iii) Fuselage.

(iv) Engine mounts.

(v) Control system.

(vi) Landing gear.

(vii) Hull or floats.

(viii) Elements of an airframe including spars, ribs, fittings, shock absorbers, bracing, cowling, fairings, and balance weights.

(ix) Hydraulic and electrical actuating system of components.

(x) Rotor blades.

(xi) Changes to the empty weight or empty balance which result in an increase in the maximum certificated weight or center of gravity limits of the aircraft.
Click to expand...

Removing the rear bench didn't change the cg limits or increase the max gross weight.
 
This has been discussed here a few times before and I have posted this before:

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=35820&d=1411575899

It's a nice guide from the CPA for removing the seat legally.

The FAA's guidance contained therein:

At the next annual inspection, or sooner, have a mechanic work two weight and balances sheets. One sheet with the seat in, one sheet with the seat out. Also have him create two equipment lists, one with the seat in and one with the seat out. I recommend that you identify each weight & balance and equipment list with an identifying letter or number so that particular W&B and equipment list can be properly referenced in the log book entry.

I also recommend that the mechanic sign both W&B and equipment lists with his signature and certificate number and date.

When the pilot removes the seat, he makes a log book entry in accordance with section 43.9, This tells the world what seat is removed and the new weight and balance/equipment list is in effect, (reference the identifying letter or number of the new weight/balance/ equipment list.) The new weight & balance and equipment list should be put in the flight manual or someplace handy so the pilot can get to it. The old weight & balance/equipment list should be taken out of the aircraft and stored someplace until it is needed. In this way no chance of error exists when the pilot computes his weight and balance.

When the seat goes back in, the pilot makes another log book entry in accordance with section 43.9; the log book should now state that the original weight and balance/equipment list is now in effect. (reference the identifying letter or number of the new weight/balance/equipment list..) In this way the pilot can remove and install the same seat twenty times a week, without an A&P and the weight and balance and equipment list is always current.”
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
One thing that may also be worth mentioning.

I've been thru (2) wings/pace weekends with my 182. One in Harrison AR and one down in Georgia somewhere, Sandersville I believe...or maybe Swainsboro since a retired FAA guy managed that airport when I was there.

During both Pace evaluations my backseat was out. In both cases the FAA guy doing the Pace inspection asked me how I handled it. In both cases I quoted the above CPA guidance but followed it up with: "But in practice, I have the W&B in an excel spreadsheet and, when the seat is out, I simply enter -30 for a rear passenger before doing any other calculation."

In both cases they were fine with that.
 
Tom-D said:
So, the question for our 182 owners simple, where do you get authorization in writing to change the type design of the aircraft by removing the rear seat, and making the change for the new CG?
Click to expand...

The rear seat in my 182 is listed as optional on the equipment list, thus it is legal to fly with it either in or out...I'm confident that this is the case for most, if not all, 182s.

Logbook entry by pilot, proper W&B by A&P. Done. Legal.
 
Last edited:
My 180 has quick release jump seats from the factory. I haven't had both seats installed in 15 years. For most of the past 10 years neither rear seat is installed. Nobody cares. No comment at annual, no comment when a couple of FAA guys wanted to see my interior. Sometimes I haul lumber or outboard motors and I fly with the right front seat removed. Again, nobody cares. I have a W&B app and can plug the numbers for anyone who wants to see them. Nobody ever has. I have alternate W&Bs for floats and skis, not for seats.
 
azure said:
How does removing the seat change either the maximum certificated weight or the CG limits? :confused:
Click to expand...

It doesn't. It only changes the empty weight and the empty weight CG plus of course the useful load. It does not change the max weight, the CG envelope or any other limit.
 
Folks, the 1972 182 owners manual is where you gain authority to remove the rear seat. It's right in the manual page 4-5 it gives the W&B for both configurations.

How few knew?
I didn't, until this AM and a phone call.

Check your 182 OM, I have no clue as to what years include this. (but one does)
 
timwinters said:
Logbook entry by pilot, proper W&B by A&P. Done. Legal.
Click to expand...

You don't even need that. Your POH gives you the authorization to fly the aircraft as equipped, and a method to compute W&B. You need nothing more than that.
The 170 OM didn't have that in their OM, thus the letter.
 
SkyDog58 said:
It doesn't. It only changes the empty weight and the empty weight CG plus of course the useful load. It does not change the max weight, the CG envelope or any other limit.
Click to expand...

When you do not have the authorization in the OM, you will be required to prove to the FAA that you will not exceed the limits in all loading configurations not given in by the W&B contained in the OM.

To state that in a different method, the FAA will call it a major alteration, you will be required to prove it ain't.
 
SkyDog58 said:
It doesn't. It only changes the empty weight and the empty weight CG plus of course the useful load. It does not change the max weight, the CG envelope or any other limit.
Click to expand...
Yep, and that's why I questioned Tom's quoting that FAR. OTOH he's an A&P and I'm not, so he might know something I don't about its applicability. :worthysmilie:
 
azure said:
Yep, and that's why I questioned Tom's quoting that FAR. OTOH he's an A&P and I'm not, so he might know something I don't about its applicability. :worthysmilie:
Click to expand...

Well. I learned some thing today.

I'd be interested to know what the W&B section in your OM says. Does your year give the W&B data for the rear seat in and out?

Show me some one who knows every thing about Aviation, I'll show you some one who scares the hell out of me.
 
SkyDog58 said:
It doesn't. It only changes the empty weight and the empty weight CG plus of course the useful load. It does not change the max weight, the CG envelope or any other limit.
Click to expand...

The FAA will require you to approve that.
The 170 will exceed the forward CG limit when you have minimum fuel, and a 170 pound pilot and nothing other than that loaded.
 
I guess you'd want that log entry and W&B done for all those Cessnas without wheel pants too....right? :goofy:
Tom-D said:
This letter gave the 170 owners authorization for the pilot to remove the rear seat. They do not need to have an A&P to remove it or do any W&B other than a CG for installed, and one for removed.

There is no such authorization for the 172, 180,182,or the 190/5.

So, the question for our 182 owners simple, where do you get authorization in writing to change the type design of the aircraft by removing the rear seat, and making the change for the new CG?
The owner's manual for the 182 is a required placard for airworthiness requirements, changing that is a major change to to the operations of the aircraft. Where would you get authorizations to do that?

IMHO you would need a STC/FA or a letter of authorization to treat this as a minor alteration.
Click to expand...
 
Tom-D said:
I'd be interested to know what the W&B section in your OM says. Does your year give the W&B data for the rear seat in and out?
Click to expand...
It gives the W&B data for the seat - weight and moment arm.

The seat is listed as a "S" item, not "R".
 
azure said:
How does removing the seat change either the maximum certificated weight or the CG limits? :confused:
Click to expand...

It probably doesn't in this particular case but that doesn't mean it won't or couldn't in all cases. Take the rear seat out of a J3 for instance and you're going to seriously step outside of the CG.
 
Tom-D said:
The FAA will require you to approve that.
Click to expand...

And that approval would come from the calculated W&B and log entry. No, it is not a major alteration.

Tom-D said:
The 170 will exceed the forward CG limit when you have minimum fuel, and a 170 pound pilot and nothing other than that loaded.
Click to expand...

That might very well be true but it would be the PIC responsibility to calculate his actual flight W&B based upon whichever of the empty weight W&B sheets applies at the time either with or without seat. How it gets loaded after a legal W&B is performed is the responsibility of the PIC not the A&P/IA.
 
Silvaire said:
It probably doesn't in this particular case but that doesn't mean it won't or couldn't in all cases. Take the rear seat out of a J3 for instance and you're going to seriously step outside of the CG.
Click to expand...

I thought that a J3 could only be soloed from the rear seat. Removing the rear seat would make it non-flyable by its very nature.
 
the "limits" are not changing.....no biggie.....it's a minor....and the newer aircraft have these configurations in the AFM/POH. Older aircraft, not so much....
 
azure said:
It gives the W&B data for the seat - weight and moment arm.

The seat is listed as a "S" item, not "R".
Click to expand...

Then it is not required and can be removed with a simple logbook entry. Whether or not you choose to have a separate calculated "official" W&B rather than just accounting for it on your preflight W&B is simply a matter of personal choice. If as an A&P, I were doing the seat removal, I would do a W&B for you.
 
SkyDog58 said:
And that approval would come from the calculated W&B and log entry. No, it is not a major alteration.



That might very well be true but it would be the PIC responsibility to calculate his actual flight W&B based upon whichever of the empty weight W&B sheets applies at the time either with or without seat. How it gets loaded after a legal W&B is performed is the responsibility of the PIC not the A&P/IA.
Click to expand...

That is true for all aircraft.
You are not required to make a maintenance record entry for re-configuring the aircraft when it is allowed by the POH/OM. Simply because it is normal operation of the aircraft IAW the POH/OM.
 
SkyDog58 said:
I thought that a J3 could only be soloed from the rear seat. Removing the rear seat would make it non-flyable by its very nature.
Click to expand...

I was simply using it as a clear example of the intent and meaning of 43 A (xi) You can, for instance, fly a J3 solo from the front seat if it has a wing tank but now we're talking about major alterations.
 
Silvaire said:
It probably doesn't in this particular case but that doesn't mean it won't or couldn't in all cases. Take the rear seat out of a J3 for instance and you're going to seriously step outside of the CG.
Click to expand...
Stepping outside the CG limits isn't the same thing as *changing* them, though. The way I read that regulation, it's only a major alteration if it purports to increase max gross weight or changes the CG envelope as documented in the POH. Adding or removing a seat just puts you at a different point relative to that envelope, same as adding or removing a passenger or piece of cargo.

If it puts you outside CG limits to remove the seat, then obviously you can't legally, and shouldn't, without doing something else to put the plane back within limits.
 
SkyDog58 said:
Then it is not required and can be removed with a simple logbook entry. Whether or not you choose to have a separate calculated "official" W&B rather than just accounting for it on your preflight W&B is simply a matter of personal choice.
Click to expand...
That makes so much sense it's hard to believe it's FAA-legal. :D
If as an A&P, I were doing the seat removal, I would do a W&B for you.
Click to expand...
And that's what my guy did.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top