Take the plunge?

MyDimeIsUp

MyDimeIsUp

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Hello all,

I'm going to be a sophomore starting this fall in computer science. I love programming, been doing it since I was a kid, but the aviation bug bit me as well and is what I want to do as a career. However paying for college as well as flight training is just not possible. With rising gas prices and the huge demand for pilots right now, my parents and I have considered doing one more year of college to get credits, score a summer 2023 internship since software engineer internships usually pay > $30/hr, and then doing flight training full time in fall 2023. We are considering this now since the price of gas is going up and seems to keep going up and inflation is eventually going to catch up to every aspect of life, making it more expensive. The thinking is why not dive in now while training is cheap relative to everything else before flight training costs start going up rapidly too. After building hours and going regional (or corporate who knows, maybe I'll change my mind and be enlightened) I just wrap up 2 years of college to get a bachelor's to make it to mainline AA, DAL, or UAL + have a backup plan God forbid I lose my medical and can't fly anmore.

I was wondering what everyone thinks about flight training cost, the price of gas associated with it, and trying to get into an airline while the pilot demand is still astronomically high. If I were to finish college, I'd graduate 2025, want to work for a year or two to build money, flight train in 2027, build hours, and only then get my foot into an airline in 2029. Not sure if I can wait until 2027 to fly and by 2029 if the pilot demand at regionals will be as high as they are now. It seems right now if you have all ratings and a pulse they'll hire you. I fought the FAA with my ADHD and ASD diagnosis thousands of dollars and now I've just been sitting on a 1st class medical for over 2 years and haven't even started training due to the cost of college. Its been irritating me and really want to fly.

Thanks all.
 
Training: big flight school locally is already adding fuel surcharge to their wet rental rates. If labor rates catch up, CFI cost will go up too.

I don’t think you’re going to beat the market on costs, but that’s 100% opinion.
 
Join the military. Get paid to learn to fly.

Additionally, recently heard from a pro pilot, the airlines are slowing hiring in anticipation of a economic recession. Just what I heard from one person that should know.
 
Morgan3820 said:
Join the military. Get paid to learn to fly.
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I have looked into the military before. I was on and off but finally decided it wasn't for me. I can not say that I'm open to the idea of doing 10 years of military service. I wouldn't do it just for free training, seems like something that you must be all in for. I'd rather be walking in the airport of KORD, KJFK, or KPHL with some debt than in the military base. I'm not all in on the military but it hasn't stopped by dad from bringing it up every other dinner but it just isn't for me. Even just regular officer service that doesn't require the pilot 10 year commitment isn't for me and hasn't been for the past 4 years everytime I think about it.
 
MyDimeIsUp said:
I have looked into the military before. I was on and off but finally decided it wasn't for me. I can not say that I'm open to the idea of doing 10 years of military service. I wouldn't do it just for free training, seems like something that you must be all in for. I'd rather be walking in the airport of KORD, KJFK, or KPHL with some debt than in the military base. I'm not all in on the military but it hasn't stopped by dad from bringing it up every other dinner but it just isn't for me. Even just regular officer service that isn't doesn't require the pilot 10 year commitment isn't for me.
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The military is not for everyone. Be patient with your Father. While it can be annoying, your Father loves you and wants the best for you.
 
I think at least one of the big three you mentioned has dropped the 4yr degree requirement, thought it was AA?

Holy crap on that medical. Way to go. You almost have to become a pilot after all that.

Hard to know whether to switch or not.

Why not do what you can to accelerate the computer science degree (summers) and knock off half a year. Get a job out east starting around $130k. Work one year, buddy up in a apartment and save about $50k cash. Then quit and fly your arse off.

But you need to knock out your private this summer. IR next summer. Get flying, at least PPL. What if you hate it, at least you didn't quit college.

Once you have the hours it still moves slow. Two guys out at our local airports, the one who started in January just got his check airman rides two weeks ago. The other started in late February and got his type rating about 3 weeks ago. Doing "differences" now and expecting no less than 2 months to his check airman ride...called IOE if understand it right. They are both getting paid, I yhink its like $4k a month. Both are doing other jobs while waiting.
 
Sinistar said:
I think at least one of the big three you mentioned has dropped the 4yr degree requirement, thought it was AA?

Holy crap on that medical. Way to go. You almost have to become a pilot after all that.

Hard to know whether to switch or not.

Why not do what you can to accelerate the computer science degree (summers) and knock off half a year. Get a job out east starting around $130k. Work one year, buddy up in a apartment and save about $50k cash. Then quit and fly your arse off.

But you need to knock out your private this summer. IR next summer. Get flying, at least PPL. What if you hate it, at least you didn't quit college.

Once you have the hours it still moves slow. Two guys out at our local airports, the one who started in January just got his check airman rides two weeks ago. The other started in late February and got his type rating about 3 weeks ago. Doing "differences" now and expecting no less than 2 months to his check airman ride...called IOE if understand it right. They are both getting paid, I yhink its like $4k a month. Both are doing other jobs while waiting.
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That was the original plan. Graduate and rake in that software engineer money and then start flight training debt free. Land at an airline and do software engineer part-time/be a contractor. Problem is that waiting that long is painful for me. I have previously considered what you said after, which is just getting a PPL now and then flying occasionally and eventually moving to IR however from what I've read its advisable to fly at a minimum every 2 weeks to stay in tune. Though the FAA says you need three landings every 90 days to stay current, I imagine you'll definitely become rusty. Flying with a PPL and not getting any other ratings just to BS my way into complyng with 14 CFR § 61.57 section a seems silly. Along with that, I can't see myself shelling out around $100/hr to rent a plane in college just to fly without any real purpose other than to stay current. To get to CFI where I can make money and keep up on my experience (if you can teach a subject you know the subject... usually) while flying is about $40k - $50k and is a huge investment while in college.
 
Be careful of college credits expiring if you delay the degree too long. I know you’re worrying about the cost of flight training going up, but college tuition will probably inflate even faster.

You’re not starting back to college until fall, if I understand your post correctly. So are you earning some money over the summer and taking flying lessons? You should be doing both.

My overarching advice, though, is to knock out that degree as quickly as possible so you’ll have a good safety net if aviation goes south for some reason. Heavier course load, classes in the summer, get any CLEP credit you can, etc.

 
MyDimeIsUp said:
That was the original plan. Graduate and rake in that software engineer money and then start flight training debt free. Land at an airline and do software engineer part-time/be a contractor. Problem is that waiting that long is painful for me.
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Your original plan is still the best plan. Don’t screw it up because you’re impatient. Show some mature discipline and stay the course.
 
BTW,....

Flitting from one plan to another seems just a little ADHD-ish, doesn’t it?

Just sayin’...
 
Half Fast said:
BTW,....

Flitting from one plan to another seems just a little ADHD-ish, doesn’t it?

Just sayin’...
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Haha. Well I have been paying $125/yr for a 1st class medical and not flying. ADHD people I know seem to just take a plunge without thought or care. I love to thoroughly research anything before doing/buying/investing it + is a group discussion between my parents and I. My mom actually seems to want to take the plunge very soon, I really want to fly but hesitant to just drop out 2nd to 3rd year of college hence why I'm here for opinions. Shes here saying "college ain't for everybody. Gas prices going up better start now".
 
First, recessions end. Oil markets are particularly volatile. You should consider forgoing inflated pilot training expenses & pick up a promising 4-yr degree while you wait.

Second, you're looking at about 1500 hours to be competitive for the majors. There are a lot of pilots in the pipeline ahead of you with far more hours already. Starting off in the regionals is a miserable life. Renting a seat in a car parked at the airport to catch a few hours between flights. Below poverty pay. Abusive schedule. Things get better after you get a line number, but until then, it's not much of a life.

Third, you'll not fly for the military without a 4 yr degree, nor will you be in the Officer Corps without a degree. But, speaking of the military, they are shedding pilots to the airlines. 5,000 hrs of HEAVY KC-135, B-52, C-5, C-17, P-8, C-130 multi-engine turboprop & jet time will bump everyone down a few slots at the airlines. That's hard to compete with.

Finally, you appear to be in a good position to turn a good deal of cheddar as a software engineer. If you love flying, don't make it your job. Instead, buy your own plane & be your own boss.
 
Plus consider Murphy's Law, especially likely for those who are quick to act:

Scenario #1: You bail on the computer degree to fly. Recession hits. All those aspiring pilots with 1501hrs never get the call. You have $85k in flight training debt and who knows what for your degree. You can't do either job and you are no longer interested in programming either.

Scenario #2: You fly and finish your degree and then work and finish your pilot training. Verry little debt and you get to the airlines 4yrs from now. You are young. Yes, there are pilots 3yrs ahead of you in the left seat and you are right seat...and in 25yrs who cares.

Scenario 3: You bail college before actually getting your PPL. You go all in and hate getting bounced around in a small plane or you over analyze the $230/hr flight hours. You bail and miss one full year of school. Now you've lost over $100k of wages from a programming degree.

I think @Half Fast is trying to tell you something about sticking to something and your nature toward things. Get the sure thing first, the degree and do your PPL during your final college years. Even if you stop flying all together for year it will come back to you and not cost that much. My wife did her PPL during a college summer. Did a college fall/winter and never flew an hour the did her IR the following summer. You are probably 3x faster than her. But she is probably 6x more patient. That pattern got her to a regional after many years. She knew she loved flying because she started early, not as part of a all or nothing decision
 
MyDimeIsUp said:
software engineer internships usually pay > $30/hr
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Where? I'm hearing it's $60+/hr in some places, not including housing stipend, transportation stipend and meals.
 
MyDimeIsUp said:
Haha. Well I have been paying $125/yr for a 1st class medical and not flying. ADHD people I know seem to just take a plunge without thought or care. I love to thoroughly research anything before doing/buying/investing it + is a group discussion between my parents and I. My mom actually seems to want to take the plunge very soon, I really want to fly but hesitant to just drop out 2nd to 3rd year of college hence why I'm here for opinions. Shes here saying "college ain't for everybody. Gas prices going up better start now".
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$125/yr holding down anything in aviation is chicken feed, background noise. Your ForeFlight subscription will cost you twice that, at least.
 
Sinistar said:
Plus consider Murphy's Law, especially likely for those who are quick to act:

Scenario #1: You bail on the computer degree to fly. Recession hits. All those aspiring pilots with 1501hrs never get the call. You have $85k in flight training debt and who knows what for your degree. You can't do either job and you are no longer interested in programming either.

Scenario #2: You fly and finish your degree and then work and finish your pilot training. Verry little debt and you get to the airlines 4yrs from now. You are young. Yes, there are pilots 3yrs ahead of you in the left seat and you are right seat...and in 25yrs who cares.

Scenario 3: You bail college before actually getting your PPL. You go all in and hate getting bounced around in a small plane or you over analyze the $230/hr flight hours. You bail and miss one full year of school. Now you've lost over $100k of wages from a programming degree.

I think @Half Fast is trying to tell you something about sticking to something and your nature toward things. Get the sure thing first, the degree and do your PPL during your final college years. Even if you stop flying all together for year it will come back to you and not cost that much. My wife did her PPL during a college summer. Did a college fall/winter and never flew an hour the did her IR the following summer. You are probably 3x faster than her. But she is probably 6x more patient. That pattern got her to a regional after many years. She knew she loved flying because she started early, not as part of a all or nothing decision
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I have never thought about doing my PPL in the summer of my last year of college, that pretty good idea. I do actually want to finish a degree, it is a for sure career path. You can loose an arm, leg, vision, whatever and still work as a software engineer. If anything goes bad in aviation, it is a great spot to go back full time while furloughed as I heard some did. I just feel like my mom may be scaring me into oil prices never coming down and inflation skyrocketing as Germany did in the 1920s and 1930s. I don't feel shes doing this on purpose, like @Morgan3820 said my parents both love me and want the best for me. My mom just wants me to do what I love most and doesn't want me to do it in harder times. I feel the same way though that oil and gas usually do recover, she is just questioning WHEN.

rhkennerly said:
First, recessions end. Oil markets are particularly volatile. You should consider forgoing inflated pilot training expenses & pick up a promising 4-yr degree while you wait.

Second, you're looking at about 1500 hours to be competitive for the majors. There are a lot of pilots in the pipeline ahead of you with far more hours already. Starting off in the regionals is a miserable life. Renting a seat in a car parked at the airport to catch a few hours between flights. Below poverty pay. Abusive schedule. Things get better after you get a line number, but until then, it's not much of a life.

Third, you'll not fly for the military without a 4 yr degree, nor will you be in the Officer Corps without a degree. But, speaking of the military, they are shedding pilots to the airlines. 5,000 hrs of HEAVY KC-135, B-52, C-5, C-17, P-8, C-130 multi-engine turboprop & jet time will bump everyone down a few slots at the airlines. That's hard to compete with.

Finally, you appear to be in a good position to turn a good deal of cheddar as a software engineer. If you love flying, don't make it your job. Instead, buy your own plane & be your own boss.
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Definately, oil and gas do come down eventually. My mom is just scared of WHEN they will. She fears they never will and wants me to do what I love ASAP because she is afraid if I wait later I'll be paying way more than now. Regionals are tough, PSA, Envoy, and other AA whole owned saying they increased 1st year FO pay to $90/hr but its probably just like the AA "5-year guaranteed flow" meanwhile you have pilots with 10+ years at a regional who haven't flowed to AA yet and are stuck there unless they apply to DAL or UAL. Regionals suck for a while, but airline/corporate flying is what I want to do. I want to fly jets connecting people across the country or even continents. As airline pilots I've run into before have said, its a rough start but the future return is rewarding.
 
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asicer said:
Where? I'm hearing it's $60+/hr in some places, not including housing stipend, transportation stipend and meals.
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Oh yeah. Capital One, major banks, FAANG (Facebook, Apple, Amazon, Netflix, and Google), and more pay > $60/hr with housing stipends, travel, health insurance, sick days and vacation and more but there are so many applicants. A friend applied to one of those and got accepted. There were 28,000 applicants; only 120 were accepted. It's recommended to send > 100 resumes out for software engineer internships. From reading on forums, the average I see is about 130 applications sent out, 12 interview, and 1 - 3 acceptances to join. I've already started sending intern applications out for summer 2023! It's competitive.
 
I haven't detected any love for CompSci from you, only a love for a paycheck.

Figure out how to put both feet into Aviation if that's what excites you. We have enough sh*tty coders in tech.
 
For your sake I hope you've sat down and had real discussions with airline pilots on their lifestyle and if that's what you want out of aviation. Personally, I can't imagine flying for somebody else - I love being able to fly when and where I want. I love aviation as a hobby - wouldn't want it as my job.

Also, while I see you talking mainly about money with regard to these different career options, you should realize that you'll need consistent passion and persistence to advance whichever one you choose.
 
schmookeeg said:
I haven't detected any love for CompSci from you, only a love for a paycheck.

Figure out how to put both feet into Aviation if that's what excites you. We have enough sh*tty coders in tech.
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Haha. Many are in it for just the paycheck. I code for a hobby project for a Garry's Mod server probably every other day for hours a day. I love coding. I pretty much make no money from it (only about $200 every 3 months) but love seeing things I create come to life. I love creating systems people interact with and enjoy and love learning about algorithms and the best way to store data, retrieve it, and displaying it. I recently redid our Discord linking system and while it was a pain in the ass, I love it. I'm actually coding right now as this thread is open lol. Flying and coding are things I can say I love with a true passion. The money is great but I consider it a perk to being a pilot or programmer which are two things I can say I truly love. Making creations come to life by using data or flying 37,000 feet at mach 0.75 in a 140,00lb tube is truly amazing.
 
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I would double up and finish college. You'll have your degree, and a back up plan if aviation doesn't work out or you find out that the airline pilot lifestyle is not for you. While you are finishing up college as fast as you can (summer school and/or make sure you're taking full credit loads every semester - 18+ credits at a time if you can handle it, though I do not recommend 26 credits in one semester!), start reading up the FAA books and/or watching Youtube of stuff like cross country navigation and radio skills. If you go into your training with everything but the physical skills to fly the plane, it will be a lot cheaper and you'll need a lot less ground time and will spend less time in the air trying to wrap your head around a new maneuver you weren't aware of the week before.

I wouldn't worry too much about delays between getting certificates. If you can get your PPL now, while in college, go for it. If you don't fly for two years, you'll just have a few hours getting familiar with it again and away you go. Some people struggle with rusty pilot syndrome more than others, but I wouldn't be too worried about it. In the grand scheme of things, having to reacclimatize in a few years will probably be less expensive than getting the whole PPL. :)
 
rhkennerly said:
Second, you're looking at about 1500 hours to be competitive for the majors.
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Umm, no… 1500 hours does NOT make you competitive with the majors. Try 3000 and a thousand turbine and then you might catch the bait.
rhkennerly said:
Starting off in the regionals is a miserable life. Renting a seat in a car parked at the airport to catch a few hours between flights. Below poverty pay.
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The regionals are no longer this way. Two of my buddies who recently hired would also disagree with you.
 
MyDimeIsUp said:
Haha. Many are in it for just the paycheck. I code for a hobby project for a Garry's Mod server probably every other day for hours a day. I love coding. I pretty much make no money from it (only about $200 every 3 months) but love seeing things I create come to life. I love creating systems people interact with and enjoy and love learning about algorithms and the best way to store data, retrieve it, and displaying it. I recently redid our Discord linking system and while it was a pain in the ass, I love it. I'm actually coding right now as this thread is open lol. Flying and coding are things I can say I love with a true passion. The money is great, but being a pilot or programmer is something I can say I truly love. Making creations come to life by using data or flying 37,000 feet at mach 0.75 in a 140,00lb tube is truly amazing.
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Well your tech passion will get you to 200k/yr in a couple of years, easily, with no real maximum. Your pilot passion will cost that much up front, and then take somewhere circa 10 years of grind to maybe make the same if there's not some other cyclical downturn in the industry.

If you're in earnest I'd take the sure thing with tech and pay for your aviation interest with the couch change left over. Make aviation the "backup" because there seem to be a lot of boom/bust cycles as pro pilot. Then you can pick your moment to get scooped up, and stick with it if you enjoy it.

Also, like lots of things, I love flying but hate it as a job for someone else. I washed out of part 135 in 4 months, and never want to return. NFW would I want to grind right-seat for a decade trying to get a fourth stripe and a respectable bid.

$0.02
 
I'm sure it seems like you have all the time in the world to decide what you want to do, but you don't. Life tends to get in the way really fast when you start accumulating responsibilities. My advice is to make a decision and go after it. Only you can decide what to do, but I've never heard of anyone on their deathbed lamenting not taking a particular office job. 100 years from now, no one is going to remember or care if you flew for a living or as a hobby anyway.
 
schmookeeg said:
Well your tech passion will get you to 200k/yr in a couple of years, easily, with no real maximum. Your pilot passion will cost that much up front, and then take somewhere circa 10 years of grind to maybe make the same if there's not some other cyclical downturn in the industry.

If you're in earnest I'd take the sure thing with tech and pay for your aviation interest with the couch change left over. Make aviation the "backup" because there seem to be a lot of boom/bust cycles as pro pilot. Then you can pick your moment to get scooped up, and stick with it if you enjoy it.

Also, like lots of things, I love flying but hate it as a job for someone else. I washed out of part 135 in 4 months, and never want to return. NFW would I want to grind right-seat for a decade trying to get a fourth stripe and a respectable bid.

$0.02
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I've heard from many pilots that being an airline pilot is a "second job of sorts". Its a cyclical career between the ATC strike during Regan, 9/11, 2008 crisis, and now Covid. One is a dentist on the side, the others are programmers, real estate, etc. Tech is a sure thing and always needed and fully anticipate being a software engineer part-time. I would never give it up.
 
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