Tailwheel training...ideal world question

LongRoadBob

LongRoadBob

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I have to admit I'm both fascinated, and a little scared of flying tailwheel. I'm just a student, grew up with my dad flying C172, learning now on a Piper Warrior II.

I am guessing that most flying clubs, and training happens in tricycle gear planes because of a few things. That when manufacturers like Cessna started making them, it was so they would be easier to fly, and then clubs bought them, and it was easier to handle for students, who generally were only really given the option to tri-gear.

BUT...in an ideal world, would it be better overall to teach a new student tailwheel, later on transition to tri gear? I know tailwheel is more demanding on being precise on the ground, landing, because of ground loop. Other than that imo not sure, if it flies differently, or at least on takeoff since the AOA at least as you start ground roll is different and you have to lift the tail?

I think after I get my PPL I am very interested in learning tailwheel. A little scared of it too.
I know my club has a couple of them, and ought to check even if they even do training in them. Or if they have all the instruments one needs for training for PPL. If possible, I have so little training so far I think I could go over after taking my exam, and maybe it isn't a dumb thing to consider.

It seems to me though, a new student, one that gets somewhat proficient finally in tri-gear and feel like they have the techniques, it would be harder to go over to the more demanding tailwheel? Need quicker responses to rudder, etc? Nothing is "normal" but I feel like going the other way from tailwheel to tri, would be a piece of cake.

Ok. I'd bet cash money that I have a lot of wrong assumptions here. (This was all just a get rich quick scheme, but I can't find any takers betting I don't have wrong assumptions)

Forgetting the rail world, ideally would you guys say it was better to begin tailwheel than the other way?
 
You'll notice the most difference during taxiing, takeoff and landing. When you're actually in the air, there's not a whole lot of difference other than using more rudder than what you'd normally use in a tricycle geared. When the tail comes up during the takeoff roll, the gyroscopic action comes into play which can make it challenging. Crosswind landings are also a bit more tricky in a TW rather than tri-geared.

I don't know the specifics, but I would imagine the insurance rates are significantly higher for tailwheel use in a flight school environment than a basic tri-geared airplane. Likely to be one of the primary factors that it's not as common these days.
 
Ryanb said:
You'll notice the most difference during taxiing, takeoff and landing. When you're actually in the air, there's not a whole lot of difference other than using more rudder than what you'd normally use in a tricycle geared. When the tail comes up during the takeoff roll, the gyroscopic action comes into play which can make it challenging. Crosswind landings are also a bit more tricky in a TW rather than tri-geared.

I don't know the specifics, but I would imagine the insurance rates are significantly higher for tailwheel use in a flight school environment than a basic tri-geared airplane. Likely to be one of the primary factors that it's not as common these days.
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Thanks! Just wondering why you need more rudder with tailwheel in the air?
Also is the gyroscopic effect because as the tail comes up, (is it abrupt?) there is a force at right angles to it?

Any thoughts on the order, tri gear first then tailwheel vs. the opposite?
 
When I was instructing we started a few zero-time students on the Citabrias when we had too many to fit them all into the 172 schedules. They ended up soloing in about the same time as those in the trikes. The trike students, once they got the PPL, took some time to solo in the Citabrias because they had to learn to fly all over again. Their feet had to wake up and go to work.

It all has to do with Primacy, one of the Seven Learning Factors. Things first learned are those that are most strongly impressed upon us. If we find directional control and coordination easy when we first fly, our brains get accustomed to that right away and when a more challenging situation comes along, we struggle to adapt.

But it's still a lot of fun, if you like to learn and master things.
 
LongRoadBob said:
Thanks! Just wondering why you need more rudder with tailwheel in the air?
Also is the gyroscopic effect because as the tail comes up, (is it abrupt?) there is a force at right angles to it?
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Most taildraggers are older designs that have more adverse yaw, so require more rudder. The landing gear has nothing to do with it once in the air.

There are four forces that make that nose turn left, and raising the tail is one of them. In the typical taildragger trainer you're not likely to notice it. The prop is too light. The other three are assymetric thrust (downgoing blade has more AoA than upgoing blade when in three-point attitude or in slow flight), The spiralling slipstream off the prop that strikes the left side of the fin, and the torque reaction that places more weight on the left main, another minor force in small taildraggers.
 
Many tailwheel airplanes don't have the differential aileron and other features that reduce adverse yaw in flight, thus requiring more rudder.

As far as the order of things, I'd recommend tailwheel first if you can. Even if they're not equipped with everything you need for the checkride, you can at least go through solo in tailwheel, assuming the club/insurance allows it.
 
LongRoadBob said:
BUT...in an ideal world, would it be better overall to teach a new student tailwheel, later on transition to tri gear?
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Sho-nuff.

It's easy to learn from scratch in a tailwheel aircraft (been there done that, Cessna 120) and easy to transition to a nosedragger (BTDT too). However, it appears to be difficult for at least some pilots to transition from a nosewheel to a taildragger - there appears to be at least some unlearning to be done.

So, yea, starting off with the wheel on the correct end seems to be the way to go if you eventually plan to fly a tailwheel.

If you are flying a P-51 P factor and Gyro effects as you lift the tail are a big deal. If you are flying behind a Continental 85, not so much.
 
When I was learning in '75-76, in Cherokee 140s, my instructor made me land like I was flying a taildragger---aligned with runway, no drift, full stall. When I got my PPL, I transitioned to the FBO's brand new 1977 Super Cub with little difficulty. I've flown with higher time pilots who weren't comfortable with crosswinds. They never had to land a taildragger. My personal opinion is that many instructors who aren't tailwheel pilots themselves allow their students too much sloppiness.
 
I didn't learn tailwheel until 30 years after I got my PPL. I wish I would have learned it a lot sooner, if not first. It's just really fun, and nothing to be afraid of.
 
LongRoadBob said:
Thanks! Just wondering why you need more rudder with tailwheel in the air?
Also is the gyroscopic effect because as the tail comes up, (is it abrupt?) there is a force at right angles to it?

Any thoughts on the order, tri gear first then tailwheel vs. the opposite?
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All of what Dan said. Ill add that Gyroscopic Effect occurs when the tail is moving up or down. In theory the prop acts as a gyro, so when the tail gets raised during the takeoff roll, the prop produces a left yawing tendency as it's AOA changes during the tail-raise. Right rudder is needed to compensate for this, as with any airplane, more HP equals more yaw. It's also important not to raise the tail prematurely, because by doing so, the rudder will not be as effective to counteract these forces.

Again, the reason more rudder is needed during flight is due to the adverse yaw that's produced, so stay coordinated at all times. TW flying gets your feet active and that's something you'll learn very quickly.
 
If you have the option to train in coventional gear aircraft, it is the way to go. You will never forget the hard earned skills you learn in the TW and will make tri gear aircraft "easier" to fly. Conventional gear training teaches you precision and CONTROL! It will make you a better pilot,,,,,,,Most of the time! :D
 
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I learned in a 172. When I got my tail wheel endorsement (in a Citabria), the hardest part for me was wheel landings. (That's touching down on the mains first, for those who don't know.)
 
DoubleD said:
When I was learning in '75-76, in Cherokee 140s, my instructor made me land like I was flying a taildragger---aligned with runway, no drift, full stall. When I got my PPL, I transitioned to the FBO's brand new 1977 Super Cub with little difficulty. I've flown with higher time pilots who weren't comfortable with crosswinds. They never had to land a taildragger. My personal opinion is that many instructors who aren't tailwheel pilots themselves allow their students too much sloppiness.
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I think your assessment is the primary cause for struggles when transitioning to a tailwheel airplane. The instructors are sloppy in their own landings which then translates into poor student landings because the instructors don't know any better.

I've flown with a lot of different people. The guys that are the most aware of where the winds are seem to be the guys who have had some tailwheel, seaplane, or glider time. It's not that all tricycle guys are band and that all tailwheel pilots are superior but it definitely seems like the time spent in other types of airplanes is well worth the effort and money spent to get the experience.

Palmpilot said:
I learned in a 172. When I got my tail wheel endorsement (in a Citabria), the hardest part for me was wheel landings. (That's touching down on the mains first, for those who don't know.)
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Assuming you flew a (slightly) newer citabria with the spring gear they can be a bit springy and will catapult you back in the air on a less than perfect wheel landing, particularly with some excess speed. Minimizing your rate of descent during the round out and touchdown is not something emphasized in the typical primary training done in a 172 or the like but it is important in a wheel landing. This is another area of primary training in a tricycle that doesn't get brought up enough.
 
If I were king I'd get a fleet of Super Cubs and do primary training in them. Unfortunately, there aren't enough qualified instructors to go around for a school like that these days, and I am unsure how many students you'd attract. My guess is that the more modern looking tricycle airplanes would be viewed as a more desirable training airplane.
 
Tailwheel training will make you a different pilot than a tricycle pilot. But better? Not certain that is true.
 
I leaned from the ground up in a 7AC, did most of my CFIing in 7ECAs with 0 time folks, and without hesitation, yes it makes them a better pilot and gives them a way better foundation.

Also solo occurs in the same average amount of time, so it's really not harder as they have no reference point, it just becomes their norm.

As far as the trike "transition" it's like read the POH, you take them up for like MAYBE .5 on the Hobbs and set them loose, it's not even worthy of being called a transition.
 
tinerj said:
Tailwheel training will make you a different pilot than a tricycle pilot. But better? Not certain that is true.
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I think there is some truth to that. There are plenty of great pilots who have never flown a tailwheel and plenty of tailwheel pilots who are a menace to themselves and others. Tailwheels force you to to use rudder more, but that alone doesn't automatically MAKE you a better pilot.

In today's world, the main reason to learn to fly a tailwheel is because you WANT to fly tailwheel airplanes.
 
LongRoadBob said:
Forgetting the rail world, ideally would you guys say it was better to begin tailwheel than the other way?
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Indeed it is, but if you didn't and want to check out for the least amount of cost spend lots of time taxiing one around on the ground. Do maneuvers, ie., pattern eights, etc., on the ramp. Turn 360s without help of brakes, then spin the tail around with brakes, power and lifting the tail with elevator, stopping on a heading. All the while, practice proper flight control positioning with respect to the wind. After you master all that (assuming you haven't damaged the plane :))--go fly it.

dtuuri
 
I have about 20 hours in tail wheel planes, never flown a tail dragger. I have found that it is a little different in take off and landing. That was all done in the right seat as the owner was not comfortable in the right seat.

One of these days I'll take some tail wheel training and get the endorsement.
 
If I had it do over I'd do glider, then tailwheel, then trikes. I've read that trikes fueled the golden age of GA. Being able to instruct when the winds kicked up is what made it finacially feasable for a lot of flight schools to actually make money.
 
They screwed everything up when they started calling them "Taildraggers" I learned to fly in the 50's. 8 Hrs and a few minutes and they turned me loose in a Champ at 16.

It was no big deal, everyone was doing it. We were taught strange things like rudders, spins, slips etc.

Paul
Salome, AZ
 
dtuuri said:
Indeed it is, but if you didn't and want to check out for the least amount of cost spend lots of time taxiing one around on the ground. Do maneuvers, ie., pattern eights, etc., on the ramp. Turn 360s without help of brakes, then spin the tail around with brakes, power and lifting the tail with elevator, stopping on a heading. All the while, practice proper flight control positioning with respect to the wind. After you master all that (assuming you haven't damaged the plane :))--go fly it.

dtuuri
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I think I get it. What you are saying. If possible, play around and get used to it since most though not all of the difference is in how a tailwheel handles on the ground.
 
Getting the endorsement is very different from flying them in the worst conditions... and then flying back for another load. I haven't flown a nose dragger since 1995. No expectations to fly one anytime soon. It's just flying whatcha got.
 
I may have missed it in the replies but the big reason for larger rudder movement on takeoff with the tail in the air is that you no longer have a steerable wheel on the ground.

Back in the early 80's where I instructed we got the student about 1/2 way to PPL in the cubs and then finished them in a C150. Never had anyone have a problem flying the C150 doing it that way.
 
I did about 60 hours in trikes before buying a C170. In hindsight, it was nice to focus on takeoffs and landing without having to learn how to fly, turn, flare, etc. I'm sure you could learn tailwheel skills at the same time as the rest, but I do think it would make your training a little longer. Here's a video of some of my tailwheel training....





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