Until recently, Diesel was always cheaper than gasoline.
Taildraggers - What's the big whoop?
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SoloEqs
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Which is why real men fly retractable taildraggers.
Or, in this case, they sit in them and make "ROWRRRRRR" sounds . . .
SoloEqs
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What "materials problems" . . ? The engine is aluminum and steel, with graphite apex seals.
Mazda stopped making the RX-8 a little over a year ago, but only because it couldn't meet European smog standards.
Dav8or
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You should be fair. VW diesel Rabbits they sold during that same period were absolute crap! I'm sorry, but all the diesels we got in America at that time, including the now very popular veggie oil burning Mercedes, were pretty sad. However, the GM diesel conversions were pretty bad from what I've heard. Never drove one. However, I have experience with the Rabbit.
SoloEqs
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None of the many that I've had had ANY "corners" -- the combustion chamber is two oval lobes.
Dav8or
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They also got crappy gas mileage and so they would get dinged with the CAFE standards.
You should be fair. VW diesel Rabbits they sold during that same period were absolute crap! I'm sorry, but all the diesels we got in America at that time, including the now very popular veggie oil burning Mercedes, were pretty sad. However, the GM diesel conversions were pretty bad from what I've heard. Never drove one. However, I have experience with the Rabbit.
I had the Diesel Rabbit truck, it was fine, lacked some power, but got over 50mpg and always started. All it really needed was a turbo which is what all the Diesels of that era lacked. The Chevy love and Chevette with the Isuzu Deisel were also good, the Chevette would out run the gasoline powered version even.
FormerHangie
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The overall shape of the combustion chamber, when viewed from the top of the rotor housing is a rectangle. Those two circular seals on the sides of the rotor are called corner seals.
Look at the shape of the combustion chaMber here:
Way too much surface area.
SoloEqs
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The only "challenge" was getting owners to let the engine warm up a minute or so before either driving or shutting down. Failure to do so leads to carbon buildup, which shortens the life of the apex seals.
35 AoA
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I don't disagree that it probably takes more finesse and skill to handle a T/W aircraft on and around the runway, but it is amusing to me, the groups of pilots who have such a landing fetish. If you don't break it, and you walk away from it, that sounds like an average day at work for most of us.
SoloEqs
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The overall shape of the combustion chamber, when viewed from the top of the rotor housing is a rectangle. Those two circular seals on the sides of the rotor are called corner seals.
Look at the shape of the combustion chaMber here:
Way too much surface area.
A rectangle is a shape with four straight sides of differing length.
The Wankel is two circles which meet each other in the middle.
Less surface area than the interior of a single cylinder of a Chevy 350.
And "corner seals" are those three bladelike seals on the corners of the trochoid (the kind-of-triangular thing in the center).
Other than the fact that you don't know anything at all about the Wankel engine, you're proving to be quite an expert.
I've had a number of them, and rebuilt a bunch more of them. I've had them in cars, boats and aircraft. They are a significantly better engine than the reciprosaur.
A rectangle is a shape with four straight sides of differing length.
The Wankel is two circles which meet each other in the middle.
Less surface area than the interior of a single cylinder of a Chevy 350.
And "corner seals" are those three bladelike seals on the corners of the trochoid (the kind-of-triangular thing in the center).
Other than the fact that you don't know anything at all about the Wankel engine, you're proving to be quite an expert.
I've had a number of them, and rebuilt a bunch more of them. I've had them in cars, boats and aircraft. They are a significantly better engine than the reciprosaur.
Except for their fuel consumption. What I do like is that they'll burn Diesel fuel. I want to get my hands on one of the Navy's outboards.
Silvaire
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...and the reason nobody makes them is what, a vast conspiracy?
MBDiagMan
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You should be fair. VW diesel Rabbits they sold during that same period were absolute crap! I'm sorry, but all the diesels we got in America at that time, including the now very popular veggie oil burning Mercedes, were pretty sad. However, the GM diesel conversions were pretty bad from what I've heard. Never drove one. However, I have experience with the Rabbit.
I drove a '77 Mercedes 240D 286,000 miles. Replaced it with an '84 Euro model and drove it 515,000 miles. All with very little more than preventive maintenance. Replaced a few starters and clutches, but in the way of repairs, other than brake consumables, they were trouble free.
Yeah, they were real crap.
FormerHangie
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A rectangle is a shape with four straight sides of differing length.
The Wankel is two circles which meet each other in the middle.
Less surface area than the interior of a single cylinder of a Chevy 350.
And "corner seals" are those three bladelike seals on the corners of the trochoid (the kind-of-triangular thing in the center).
Other than the fact that you don't know anything at all about the Wankel engine, you're proving to be quite an expert.
I've had a number of them, and rebuilt a bunch more of them. I've had them in cars, boats and aircraft. They are a significantly better engine than the reciprosaur.
I worked in a Mazda shop from 1979 until 1985, during the time of the first generation RX-7. We also raced an RX-2 from 1980 until 1982 and rebuilt our own engines.
The bladelike seals you are referring to are known as apex seals, not corner seals. The corner seals are those small round things at the tips of the rotor. If you look at the rotary engine, it's like a sandwich. On the outside there are two side housings, in between there are two rotor housings, and in the middle there is a center housing. If you look at the intersection of the rotor with the side and center housing, quite clearly there is a 90 degree angle between the rotor and the side housing. Look at the picture I've included, specifically at the left side where the rotor apex is between the ports. You can see an area where the rotor and rotor housing are very close together and from the side, the combustion chamber is very thin. In that area, the combustion chamber is rectangular. There are two corners where the rotor is against the side and center housings, and a straight line where the apex seal is against the rotor housing.
If you look at this animation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7kj9rO8CgI
you can see what I mean. The combustion chamber, viewed from the side is lens shaped, but if you could view it from the peripheral side which is made up of the rotor housing, it would look rectangular. That's a rather less than ideal combustion chamber shape.
The Wankel has been around for 50 years. The NSU Ro80 and Mazda Cosmo both were in production in the late 60's, so it's fair to say it's had time to be developed. Unfortunately, no one has been able to get its specific fuel consumption down to a competitive figure. It's a shame because it quite an elegant design, and a very satisfying engine to drive behind. If I were going to get a classic car, I'd pick an 1981-1984 RX-7, I just loved them.
rwellner98
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And, even if the price were the same, there is more energy in a gallon of diesel than in a gallon of gas.
FastEddieB
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Fast Eddie B
To help further this hijack...
...I actually owned one of them there Wankels:
1973 (I think) RX3 Wagon:
Great little car.
Claim to fame was I could floor it in a tunnel and then let off the gas and get a hellaicous backfire* every time!
Oh, and its a good thing I'm at least partially colorblind - otherwise that shade of pink might have gotten to me!
*OK - afterfire for those anal retentives out there!
...I actually owned one of them there Wankels:
1973 (I think) RX3 Wagon:
Great little car.
Claim to fame was I could floor it in a tunnel and then let off the gas and get a hellaicous backfire* every time!
Oh, and its a good thing I'm at least partially colorblind - otherwise that shade of pink might have gotten to me!
*OK - afterfire for those anal retentives out there!
Dav8or
Final Approach
No, no, no. It's just the whole world is ignorant. We are just too stupid to realize that they are so superior.
Dav8or
Final Approach
To help further this hijack...
...I actually owned one of them there Wankels:
1973 (I think) RX3 Wagon:
Great little car.
Claim to fame was I could floor it in a tunnel and then let off the gas and get a hellaicous backfire* every time!
Oh, and its a good thing I'm at least partially colorblind - otherwise that shade of pink might have gotten to me!
*OK - afterfire for those anal retentives out there!
Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm. It went something like that, right? How long did it last? A real collector's item now I bet.
FastEddieB
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Fast Eddie B
More like, "MmmmmmmmmmmmmPOW!!!!".
I think in "Fritz The Cat" there's a scene of a dystopic future where one of the few remaining cars that runs is a Mazda.
Which backfires, of course!
Made me chuckle.
MBDiagMan
Final Approach
To help further this hijack...
...I actually owned one of them there Wankels:
1973 (I think) RX3 Wagon:
Great little car.
Claim to fame was I could floor it in a tunnel and then let off the gas and get a hellaicous backfire* every time!
Oh, and its a good thing I'm at least partially colorblind - otherwise that shade of pink might have gotten to me!
*OK - afterfire for those anal retentives out there!
No! Great Lotta Car. Wasn't this the commercial for it?
FastEddieB
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Fast Eddie B
Now that you mention it, I think Mazda did market a GLC.
Don't think this was one.
Don't think this was one.
MBDiagMan
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There was a commercial for some car called a GLC. It was probably in the 70's or 80's. They bantered back and forth as to whether GLC stood for Great LITTLE car, or Great LOTTA car.
I'm showing my age.
I'm showing my age.
FormerHangie
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GLC = Great Little Car, which had a piston engine and was sold in the US between about 1977 and 1983. Eddie's car is an RX-3 wagon, probably a 1971 or 1972 model. The 1973 would have had bigger bumper overriders.
It was called the Familia in Japan.
SoloEqs
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If you remember Malibu Grand Prix, their cars had rotary engines. I'd like to have gotten one of those when they closed down their racecourses.
Yes, fuel consumption can be higher, but that's largely an issue of accelerator use. At a steady RPM consumption goes way down.
I've seen them run in boats and planes, fuel specifics were always worse than their recip counterparts with the same hp ratings.
SoloEqs
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Sure, the same conspiracy that explains why nobody makes Cessna 150s or why they only built three F-20s: If people won't buy something, it's hard to find anyone who makes it, no matter how much better it is than the competition.
When Europe boosted their smog laws, it wasn't cost effective to derate the Renesis to meet the new standards. The EEC demanded that the engine be redesigned to prevent owners from simply putting on the full-house fuel injection and getting back up to 280hp (show me another auto engine that gets 200 horsepower per liter of displacement).
Note that the Renesis -- the only Wankel engine available in a production car -- made the Ward's List two years in a row, and was the only multifuel engine ever to do so.
SoloEqs
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That's why I put it in quotes -- I was using Mr Expert's incorrect terminology.
I've had RX-7s, and one guy at the airport here has one of the last 100 they shipped to the US.
I'm expecting Mazda to bring out a new RX, now that they're out from under Ford's influence.
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Yes. The advantages, however, make the trade-off worthwhile. Weight, for instance (better than one HP per pound).
And then there's reliability. I know a guy who lost his radiator. His 13B engine ran another 45 minutes or so (he lost about half of his horsepower), until he got where he was going and shut it down. A new set of apex seals later (and new radiator), and he was back in business.
FormerHangie
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No, you were assuming I meant apex seals when I said corner seals. As noted, they are two different items.
As far as a new car with the Mazda Rotary, you may be in for a wait:
http://jalopnik.com/mazdas-new-ceo-has-no-plans-to-bring-the-rotary-engine-1467670527
VanDy
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I drove a '77 Mercedes 240D 286,000 miles. Replaced it with an '84 Euro model and drove it 515,000 miles. All with very little more than preventive maintenance. Replaced a few starters and clutches, but in the way of repairs, other than brake consumables, they were trouble free.
Yeah, they were real crap.
I drive an 82 240D , other than issues from the car sitting for 15+ years, so far so good and I fly a taildragger
-VanDy
I have nothing against the design, I liked all the ones I had, the only issue is fuel range, that's why I want to get hold of one of the Navy's 'one fuel standard' JP(5?) burning ones to see how it does.
RotorAndWing
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So the thread was about taildraggers and now we are discussing Japanese cars and wankel engines................
Fearless Tower
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There's thread drift.....and then there's Tokyo Drift!So the thread was about taildraggers and now we are discussing Japanese cars and wankel engines................
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsMv1wyVOU8
Silvaire
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So wait... all those Porsche's and Audi's, Ferrari's and Lamborghini's...you mean to say they are all "derated"?
Dav8or
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So wait... all those Porsche's and Audi's, Ferrari's and Lamborghini's...you mean to say they are all "derated"?
Like I said before, nearly everyone interested in automobiles is just too stupid to realize the awesome superiority of the Wankel engine.
The Wankel rotary engine has one advantage and one advantage only over the Otto cycle engine. It makes more HP per pound. That's it. It is a good replacement for applications where a 2 cycle engine is best, like leaf blowers, chainsaws, some dirt bikes, really small scooters, small outboard boat engines and perhaps LSA, or ultra light airplanes. Sadly, other than a few experimental airplanes, no one is doing this.
FastEddieB
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Fast Eddie B
Though it failed for many reasons, could you not count vastly reduced parts count as an advantage?
I mean, compare a two-rotor Wankel with a V6 of comparable size. Two spinning rotors compared with six pistons, connecting rods, and all the requisite valve paraphernalia - 12 to 24 individual valves and valve springs and lifters, etc.
That was certainly touted as an advantage in its heyday, IIRC.
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ClimbnSink
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One of the fancy German motor gliders uses a rotary engine. Norton campaigned a rotary engined go bike in the late 80's early 90's had some success also the racing orgs wanted to declare it a one stroke and restrict displacement accordingly.
Dav8or
Final Approach
In theory you could count that as an advantage, but in practice, the rotary engine doesn't really last any longer, or have less repair issues than a traditional piston engine. Maybe Mazda saved some money producing them, I don't know, but it sure never showed in the sticker price on the showroom floor.
FormerHangie
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I would say that its big advantage is smoothness. A piston ported two stroke has a similarly low parts count, but you need a lot of cylinders to approach the smoothness of a Wankel.
I think a direct injected two stroke has better fuel economy than does the Wankel, but I could be wrong. The only two stroke gasoline engines of any substantial size left that I can think of are in outboard boat motors. Two stroke Diesels are a whole different story.