Suggestions for practicing crosswind landings

tuwood

Pre-takeoff checklist
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tuwood
I'm 9 hours into my PPL training and we're really focusing on landings now. Last week we just did touch and goes for the whole session and did a half dozen or so the week before.
Being in Nebraska it seems as though I've got a 10-15kt crosswind component every single time I fly. Obviously this is good for practice in the long term, but it's a little frustrating when I'm trying to learn the very basics.
Anyways, mentally I know what to do and how to land wing down with a slip but for some reason the connection between my brain and my feet has been a bit laggy. Meaning I rudder properly to line up straight on the flare and add the proper aileron to hold the centerline but then if any gusts come or any adjustments are required it seems like I can't quite get my feet to do what I want them to do and drift off the centerline or end up touching down in a crab.

I know it's simply a practice and repetition thing, but I'm curious if there's any mental exercises or things I can do outside of the plane to get my circuitry in better working order. I have a sim, but I don't have pedals for it. So I'm not getting the muscle memory benefit by twisting the yoke for rudder on it.
Just curious if you guys have any thoughts or suggestions other than fly more and practice more in the plane
 
I know it's simply a practice and repetition thing, but I'm curious if there's any mental exercises or things I can do outside of the plane to get my circuitry in better working order.

There is nothing that I know of, besides your "practice and repetition thing". You have to practice this enough so that your control inputs become automatic, like a reflex reaction. There is no time to logically think out: 'OK, plane drifting to the right, command more left bank. OK how do I do that?"

One day something will click and you will be able to do it! -Skip
 
The winds will change soon enough (I don't know your area, but there will be calm days). Also, it should be possible to experience other types of wind conditions at nearby airports (varies by location of trees, hills, landscape, population, etc.). If you can find airports that are surrounded by nearby hills, they could be insulated from a lot of wind. The reality is that it's a variable that will never be constant, so - this isn't the answer you're looking for, but it really is the best experience.
 
Practice makes perfect,in most cases.
 
Thanks for all the feedback. I kind of knew the answer, but thought I'd ask anyways.
Fortunately all my landings have been survivable to this point, but certainly much room for improvement. lol
 
Thanks for all the feedback. I kind of knew the answer, but thought I'd ask anyways.
Fortunately all my landings have been survivable to this point, but certainly much room for improvement. lol

That's normal when you are learning. My CFI called my landings "controlled crashes".
 
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This. Practice flying just above the runway without trying to actually touch down and you can work on those skills to keep it straight.

THE way to do it. A more advanced maneuver to add to that is to occasionally set the in to the wind main on the runway but keep the other two off. People who do the crab and kick method won't be able to do that.


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Just takes time. If it makes you feel any better, during my one experience on a jet sim the guy accidentally gave me a ten knot cross wind. I knew it. If I can get there, so can you.
 
I'm still working on these myself, but the main problem I was having was in trying to hold the same rudder pressure as conditions change. For example in a left crosswind, I tended to veer to the right after the wheel touched. I think is was because once I had some traction from the wheel I didn't need as much rudder to hold keep it aligned. Or, if the crosswind vanished(shifting wind) and I would still try to hold the slip with aileron/rudder. You just have to get fluid with the controls so you can adjust quickly to apply whatever is needed at that instant. Stay loose, but keep positive control. Now, having said that, I probably wouldn't take advise from me. :)
 
I'm still working on these myself, but the main problem I was having was in trying to hold the same rudder pressure as conditions change. For example in a left crosswind, I tended to veer to the right after the wheel touched. I think is was because once I had some traction from the wheel I didn't need as much rudder to hold keep it aligned. Or, if the crosswind vanished(shifting wind) and I would still try to hold the slip with aileron/rudder. You just have to get fluid with the controls so you can adjust quickly to apply whatever is needed at that instant. Stay loose, but keep positive control. Now, having said that, I probably wouldn't take advise from me. :)

That's almost exactly what I've been doing. I'm pretty good at getting it set up, but when things change such as a gust or a wheel touching down I start getting squirly.
 
I wouldn't be too concerned at 9 hours in - get a grip on everything else, then work towards it as you gain experience. Crosswind landings were one of the most difficult aspects for me to wrap my head around; I was fortunate to train at an airport that almost always had xwinds to some degree. Early on I didn't like them, but now it's no big deal. I fly now on days where before I would have shyed away. For me, the key was to keep pushing your self a little bit more each time; stay within the limits of the aircraft, but get out there and do it, it's the only way you'll really ever be comfortable with it. Simulators are great for lots of things, but seat-of-the-pants xwinds are not one of them IMO.

That said, here's a link way back to when I had stiff xwinds on my 3rd solo - yes, it scared the hell out of me :)

Skip to about the 4 minute mark to watch the first landing attempt.

 
Crawl before you walk, walk before you run. Narrow your center line focus and work at lower crosswinds to become proficient before you try stronger winds. Treat every landing as an aborted go-around. That is, don't commit to the ground until you have it under control. Sometimes a gust will blow you off and you'll need two or three passes to catch the winds right. No harm in that. Whenever possible try to fly base into the wind. That'll make setting up your final leg easier.
 
You can try some variations

Apparently you are doing a slip all the way down.

Instead of a slip, do a crab that keeps the plane aligned with the runway centerline until close to hangar height and then use the rudder to straighten out.

Or, for some planes, you can do the crab all the way down and so long as the nose wheel doesn't touch, once the mains are down the momentum will cause the plane to straighten out into the direction of motion.

But for training you probably have no choice but to use whatever method the CFI chooses.
 
I wouldn't be too concerned at 9 hours in - get a grip on everything else, then work towards it as you gain experience. Crosswind landings were one of the most difficult aspects for me to wrap my head around; I was fortunate to train at an airport that almost always had xwinds to some degree. Early on I didn't like them, but now it's no big deal. I fly now on days where before I would have shyed away. For me, the key was to keep pushing your self a little bit more each time; stay within the limits of the aircraft, but get out there and do it, it's the only way you'll really ever be comfortable with it. Simulators are great for lots of things, but seat-of-the-pants xwinds are not one of them IMO.

That said, here's a link way back to when I had stiff xwinds on my 3rd solo - yes, it scared the hell out of me :)

Skip to about the 4 minute mark to watch the first landing attempt.


That was an exciting landing. Fortunately I've mostly been doing these on 150' wide runway at KLNK. There's also a 100' wide one we're using, but it depends on the day.
 
You can try some variations

Apparently you are doing a slip all the way down.

Instead of a slip, do a crab that keeps the plane aligned with the runway centerline until close to hangar height and then use the rudder to straighten out.

Or, for some planes, you can do the crab all the way down and so long as the nose wheel doesn't touch, once the mains are down the momentum will cause the plane to straighten out into the direction of motion.

But for training you probably have no choice but to use whatever method the CFI chooses.

I probably didn't describe it very well. I am crabbing all the way down and then using wing-low sideslip to straighten out over the threshold (approximately). Early on, my CFI had me straighten out a little earlier just to get more practice, but I've been doing it later and later as I've gotten better. I have had several really good xwind landings, but occasionally I have the problem of my feet deciding to ignore my brain.
I'm flying a Cirrus SR20 and they frown upon the side loads of a crabbed landing. However, I can attest that they do land quite will in a full crab. (I have this friend who I heard it from, I mean ;))
 
Dont do this without your instructor, but... Lean the airplane into the wind and when you land on the upwind wheel, put in enough power to say on that one wheel and go down the runway like that on one wheel, leaning into the wind. Take off at the end and do it again. Get comfortable leaning the airplane into the wind.
 
I agree about the low passes.

Though they're clearly interrelated, I advise students to try to mentally separate these two functions:

1) Use the ailerons to move the plane laterally on the runway, almost like a steering wheel.

2) Use the rudder to keep the nose pointed down the runway.

And eventually it all ties together.

Here's a video I took of the kind of exercise I think is being suggested:

 
1) Use the ailerons to move the plane laterally on the runway, almost like a steering wheel.

2) Use the rudder to keep the nose pointed down the runway.

I know these inputs are what's needed but just seeing it written out like that helps me understand (and simplify) it a little more in my head.
When I get crossed up I tend to slide off to the left for example and try to hit my right rudder to get back on centerline. Obviously that's wrong, but I need to be able to mentally connect the two as you've written it out.

feet keep me straight and stick keeps me centered. I think I'll be repeating that in my head until my next flight. :cool:
 
I know these inputs are what's needed but just seeing it written out like that helps me understand (and simplify) it a little more in my head.
When I get crossed up I tend to slide off to the left for example and try to hit my right rudder to get back on centerline. Obviously that's wrong, but I need to be able to mentally connect the two as you've written it out.

feet keep me straight and stick keeps me centered. I think I'll be repeating that in my head until my next flight. :cool:
Be sure you're keeping in your crosswind correction as you roll out. The common error is the "straighten" everything out after you touchdown. The crosswind doesn't stop when you touchdown and roll out. Keep it in.
 
Be sure you're keeping in your crosswind correction as you roll out. The common error is the "straighten" everything out after you touchdown. The crosswind doesn't stop when you touchdown and roll out. Keep it in.

Pretty sure I let go of everything almost every landing and of course go flying off to the side of the runway after I'm no the ground.

Just checked and of course here's the wind for Friday (my next flight is 9:00am) At least it's mostly down the runway. haha

a3x43.png
 
I didn't really feel comfortable on crosswind landings until hour 160 maybe.... and that's learning in Oklahoma. Now at about 300 hours or so I'll still get nervous but I work through it and am confident enough in my abilities to land the other day in a direct 21 knot crosswind, wind was 24 gusting to 29 so it was a bit nutty but I got down and off in about 2000 ft. Just keep working through it all.
 
I wouldn't be too concerned at 9 hours in - get a grip on everything else, then work towards it as you gain experience. Crosswind landings were one of the most difficult aspects for me to wrap my head around; I was fortunate to train at an airport that almost always had xwinds to some degree. Early on I didn't like them, but now it's no big deal. I fly now on days where before I would have shyed away. For me, the key was to keep pushing your self a little bit more each time; stay within the limits of the aircraft, but get out there and do it, it's the only way you'll really ever be comfortable with it. Simulators are great for lots of things, but seat-of-the-pants xwinds are not one of them IMO.

That said, here's a link way back to when I had stiff xwinds on my 3rd solo - yes, it scared the hell out of me :)

Skip to about the 4 minute mark to watch the first landing attempt.


Ha, on that 2nd landing, I was leaning back in my seat waiting for your wheels to touch! Thanks for sharing that.
 
If things start to get away from you and you hear a little voice in your head saying "I can make this"... Abort and Go around for another try...;)
 
Find a nice wide long runway nearby and practice it with crosswind. If it makes you feel a little more comfortable to have a little more "cushion." The low pass on the runway practice is also really useful.

Best hold my beer moment I had was doing my night cross country. My CFI says he is a little tired and opened up a Red Bull or something similar. He places it on the floor of the plane and tell me not to spill it on landing.
 
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If things start to get away from you and you hear a little voice in your head saying "I can make this"... Abort and Go around for another try...;)
Have to at least try! Sometimes, it winds up a go-around. Sometimes it winds up with the aircraft safely landed. The key is knowing when you've goofed up enough to require the GA.
 
It may be possible for you and your instructor to go to a nearby field that has a different runway configuration if you are really struggling with crosswinds. However, keep this one thing in mind when you are doing these crosswind landings for real: you don't have to land the plane on the first try, second try, or even the third. Take your time and go around at any phase you don't feel is comfortable.

Another thing that helped me and still does is when you ask the instructor to demonstrate one for you at the beginning of the lesson. Follow his/her hand and rudder movements, power inputs, and sight-picture. Then try it exactly as they did.

Good luck with it! I still struggle with some crosswinds to this day.
 
Have to at least try! Sometimes, it winds up a go-around. Sometimes it winds up with the aircraft safely landed. The key is knowing when you've goofed up enough to require the GA.

Best thing my CFI ever said to me was I will never question you about going around. If you feel that you need too, do it. Just keep that in mind, a CFI, examiner, or another pilot that criticizes you for that choice probably takes unnecessary risks.
 
Anyways, mentally I know what to do and how to land wing down with a slip but for some reason the connection between my brain and my feet has been a bit laggy. Meaning I rudder properly to line up straight on the flare and add the proper aileron to hold the centerline but then if any gusts come or any adjustments are required it seems like I can't quite get my feet to do what I want them to do and drift off the centerline or end up touching down in a crab.

We've all been there. Some thoughts after these commercials...

This. Practice flying just above the runway without trying to actually touch down and you can work on those skills to keep it straight.

This.

I'm still working on these myself, but the main problem I was having was in trying to hold the same rudder pressure as conditions change.

This kinda...

That was an exciting landing. Fortunately I've mostly been doing these on 150' wide runway at KLNK. There's also a 100' wide one we're using, but it depends on the day.

Definitely hope the instructor takes you somewhere its narrow eventually. Why? It FOCUSES your attention a LOT more when screwing it up means you're going in the ditch. ;)

Best hold my beer moment I had was doing my night cross country. My CFI says he is a little tired and opened up a Red Bull or something similar. He places it on the floor of the plane and tell me not to spill it on landing.

That is an AWESOME sneaky way to get your attention.

Okay my thoughts... My feet were slow to learn too many moons ago.

Absolute fastest way to fix it? Go rent a taildragger. Seriously. But...

Since most folk aren't doing that these days, you can simulate it in the tri-gear in your head.

Here's the key and it took me a lot more than 9 hours to figure it out. Your feet have to move *fast* and they have to move (at first) nearly constantly. All your pedal training in your life has been in cars where you press and hold. This is NOT what you'll be doing in a heavy gusty crosswind in a taildragger (or even a nose wheel) airplane when you get good at it.

Your feet need to DANCE. Think dance. Not pedal. Not car. Not bike. Not tractor. DANCING.

Now, let's talk about the eyeball to foot connection you need to make. Side to side wagging of the nose is handled by the feet. If you see the nose swing even a TINY amount left, push right and push until it stops moving or it goes the other direction. Same thing the other way. This is continuous. It doesn't stop. If you're pushing too hard (and it's hard to do that at low speeds, but easier at high speeds) you just push the other way a little less hard until you find what works. Push push push push and it becomes more fluid with practice.

Here's a tip for making it more fluid. Make sure those feet are low on the pedal and not touching the brakes and push a little bit all the time with both feet. Feel how you can stop the push with your left foot by pushing a little harder with your right foot? Now I'm not talking about pushing so hard it's locked up, just a light push with the balls of both feet. Engaged feet.

Just like not rocking back on your heels when you're trying to dance. I suck at dancing. But I know not to stand flat footed with the weight on one foot or the other and backward, and still expect to be able to move off in any direction instantly. Light but both feet.

Also remember what you know about control effectiveness and authority from those times at altitude when you were in cruise, and when you were mushing around doing stalls. Remember the controls become less effective the slower you get. You're saying you set up the start well and a gust or (something) falls apart. Did you slow down? More rudder will be needed slightly on whichever side you're already pushing on. Did you change the power setting? Less or more prop wash over the tail and your feet need to move. A gust? Another move. Never stop moving.

Obviously anyone with a brain knows this is a little silly and you can end up wagging the tail or at least the rudder back and forth back and forth. It's ok at first. You just react to that nose moving. Don't let it move. You'll naturally dampen out how hard you're pushing because you'll annoy yourself overshooting and it going the other way. If you're light on your feet and ready to spring immediately the other direction, you'll find you're not waggling that much and you can easily damp out your own little oscillation you've created.

The mental game is light feet and "don't let the nose move". Now add in if you really get this way out of whack, go around.

Obviously aileron is also going to come into play here. You're not shooting for coordinated flight in a slip to a landing so bank to stop lateral movement, rudder to stay aligned (twisting of the nose movement). Keep those ailerons moving also, but know that they're usually more effective than the rudder even to lower speeds. If you're properly slowed down at touchdown those ailerons should be rolled all the way over to the stop if they aren't there yet.

Try to connect it as a direct visual to foot thing. Don't think about the rudder. Focus on that landing target on the windshield and keep it from moving laterally with aileron, and becoming misaligned with the runway (rudder) all the way through touchdown and beyond.

Follow through. The airplane isn't done flying when the wheels touch. Ailerons hard over in the upwind side at touchdown and keep rolling straight and hold that centerline with rudder. Many people relax both physically and mentally when the wheels touch. That's not the end of the landing. Keep holding the center and dance those feet.

The post above about fluidity is valid but it's half the story. To learn to be fluid you have to move first. Get em moving. ;)
 
Find a nice wide long runway nearby and practice it with crosswind. If it makes you feel a little more comfortable to have a little more "cushion." The low pass on the runway practice is also really useful.

Best hold my beer moment I had was doing my night cross country. My CFI says he is a little tired and opened up a Red Bull or something similar. He places it on the floor of the plane and tell me not to spill it on landing.

I haven't had that one directly, but a similar situation with a pilot I used to fly with. Back when I was a TFO on my department's helicopter I flew with another pilot (good friend, great guy) on a regular basis who had a lot of time in our 407. He would often place an open styrofoam cup of coffee at his feet when we flew together, just to have his coffee available during the flight. I don't think I ever saw him spill a drop. (Sorry for the thread jack there, that post just made me think of it)
 
I haven't had that one directly, but a similar situation with a pilot I used to fly with. Back when I was a TFO on my department's helicopter I flew with another pilot (good friend, great guy) on a regular basis who had a lot of time in our 407. He would often place an open styrofoam cup of coffee at his feet when we flew together, just to have his coffee available during the flight. I don't think I ever saw him spill a drop. (Sorry for the thread jack there, that post just made me think of it)

There's an out of print book that's available on the web as a PDF written by a guy who owned and flew a Cessna 182 hundreds of hours from brand new from the factory, all over the U.S. I've spaces the name of it at the moment.

He mentions setting his Coke on the floor and sipping from it, while weather flying in IMC, along with a general feel of how he pre-planned everything and stayed well ahead of the airplane at all times.

That book opened my eyes a bit to how smooth and precise a long cross country should feel in my airplane, many years ago. Especially after hundreds of hours in it. You could tell he just wore his 182 like a glove and went places with it.

I've always wished I had a business reason to do that in our 182 on a regular basis. I just don't get the long XC time I would really like. Definitely not in weather that would make the IR truly required.

I'm really comfortable in my 182, but I know it's not that completely in tune and "one with the airplane" all of the time like someone doing that many weather trips in one. He missed titling it "Zen and the Art of 182 Flying", but it would be an apt title.
 
What you need is a circular runway ... at least you will get to experience multiple wind conditions within the same landing
 
Best thing my CFI ever said to me was I will never question you about going around. If you feel that you need too, do it. Just keep that in mind, a CFI, examiner, or another pilot that criticizes you for that choice probably takes unnecessary risks.

I have made a handful of "for real" go arounds, and never had ANYone question them. Ever. Even if the cause was me screwing up.
 
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