Students are now Learners.

RingLaserGyroSandwich said:
Yes, but saying I'm a student is ambiguous as to whether you mean student in the general sense, or student in the specific (student pilot) sense. See below.


The difference here is that there is no ambiguity. What's the analogue of "student pilot" in your example?

You may care about the ambiguity less than you care about your preference for using the term student in the general sense. I'm not trying to convince people otherwise, but I understand why the FAA would fall on the other side of it and don't object.
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Huh? "Student" alone is ambiguous. And yet for 23 years when I filed out anything that asked for occupation, I wrote "student." If you want to be more specific, you add an adjective: kindergarten student, college student, graduate student, primary student, commercial student, instrument student, etc. I fail to see how "learner" is any less ambiguous.
 
How about Forgetters?

I think I’m in a steady state, forgetting as fast as I’m learning. Eventually I’ll just be a Forgetter.
 
Matthew said:
When talking to ATC and needing a little extra help, are you supposed to say, "Learner pilot"?
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Believe it or not, there are CFIs out there that refuse to tell their students to use "Student Pilot" with ATC when they are solo. I have discussed this with a few younger CFIs recently and it is apparently too demeaning to the student to admit to anyone they are a student.
 
smv said:
Believe it or not, there are CFIs out there that refuse to tell their students to use "Student Pilot" with ATC when they are solo. I have discussed this with a few younger CFIs recently and it is apparently too demeaning to the student to admit to anyone they are a student.
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That’s good...cuts down on the demand so that we ATPs can get away with it more easily.
 
jnmeade said:
We used to have dead end streets. Some thought that was pejorative and implied those who lived there had no chance of improvement or success. It was changed to no outlet, so now we have people who can't get out of their situation because there is no outlet.
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Reminds me of when PETA tried to get the town of Fishkill, NY to change the town name because the name suggested cruelty to fish.
 
smv said:
Believe it or not, there are CFIs out there that refuse to tell their students to use "Student Pilot" with ATC when they are solo. I have discussed this with a few younger CFIs recently and it is apparently too demeaning to the student to admit to anyone they are a student.
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My cfi told me the opposite... Even after I got my ticket, he said don't be afraid to say "student pilot" when communicating with atc if I ever got overwhelmed. Never had to.. trained from fbo of class c airport for most of my ppl... But it's a good security blanket.
 
The next change I foresee is the replacement of Baseball‘s “Minor Leagues“ with “Learner Leagues“ since Minor has a negative connotation:rolleyes:/. That is if there is Baseball ever again. :cool:

Cheers
 
MuseChaser said:
My cfi told me the opposite... Even after I got my ticket, he said don't be afraid to say "student pilot" when communicating with atc if I ever got overwhelmed. Never had to.. trained from fbo of class c airport for most of my ppl... But it's a good security blanket.
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In my experience, those CFIs who do not have their students self-identify are of the younger variety and it has only been in the last few years I have been noticing. When I have asked why they do that, they start going on about "feelings" and such. Apparently it is better to let them blunder about with ATC none the wiser than to have them admit up front "Kee an eye on me, I may screw up" and make them feel "less" than....?
 
smv said:
In my experience, those CFIs who do not have their students self-identify are of the younger variety and it has only been in the last few years I have been noticing. When I have asked why they do that, they start going on about "feelings" and such. Apparently it is better to let them blunder about with ATC none the wiser than to have them admit up front "Kee an eye on me, I may screw up" and make them feel "less" than....?
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Must be interesting if you are on an IFR flight plan!
 
I know a guy who continued to tell ATC "student pilot" for years after he got his private.
 
I find this highly offensive. In 1250 BC stew pilots were boiled alive and consumed by the Ciriqus tribe.
 
On initial call to ATC I let them know I’m “stoopid pilot.”
 
The military acronym is RSP/RSCM, "Rated Student Pilot" or "Rated Student Crewmember."

I just referred to them as "Yo, *****."
 
smv said:
Believe it or not, there are CFIs out there that refuse to tell their students to use "Student Pilot" with ATC when they are solo. I have discussed this with a few younger CFIs recently and it is apparently too demeaning to the student to admit to anyone they are a student.
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One should always compromise safety for emotional responses to words.

SMH. LOL
 
Dana said:
I know a guy who continued to tell ATC "student pilot" for years after he got his private.
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When I actually was a student pilot, I was doing a cross country with flight following. When I got near my destination, the controller switched me to approach, which was a nice thing for him to coordinate for me. When checking in I identified myself as a student pilot.

The controller acknowledged. Then a big airliner checked in and also identified himself as a student pilot. The controller comes back with, ''Yeah, like that is gonna work...''
 
smv said:
Believe it or not, there are CFIs out there that refuse to tell their students to use "Student Pilot" with ATC when they are solo. I have discussed this with a few younger CFIs recently and it is apparently too demeaning to the student to admit to anyone they are a student.
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I know it. I also know the opposite, that there are CFIs who teach their students to use it as a crutch, rather than a way of handling confusion. I remember being on a cross country. There was a student in a solo cross country on the same frequency. Attached "student pilot" to literally every transmission. Literally, as in

"Approach N1234X. Request flight following. Student pilot."
"34X. Squawk 5523.
"5523. N34X. Student Pilot."
"34X. Radar contact. Altimeter 29.89."
"2989. Student pilot."​
And on and on and on and on until finally...
"34X. Contact approach on 123.45."
"123.45. Student pilot."​
 
midlifeflyer said:
I know it. I also know the opposite, that there are CFIs who teach their students to use it as a crutch, rather than a way of handling confusion. I remember being on a cross country. There was a student in a solo cross country on the same frequency. Attached "student pilot" to literally every transmission. Literally, as in

"Approach N1234X. Request flight following. Student pilot."
"34X. Squawk 5523.
"5523. N34X. Student Pilot."
"34X. Radar contact. Altimeter 29.89."
"2989. Student pilot."​
And on and on and on and on until finally...
"34X. Contact approach on 123.45."
"123.45. Student pilot."​
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That is just ridiculous. I tell my students to advise each new ATC facility upon initial callup. Not to ask for special handling, but to let ATC know to keep an eye on them and perhaps be a little gentler on issuing rapid-fire instructions.
 
Lindberg said:
Huh? "Student" alone is ambiguous. And yet for 23 years when I filed out anything that asked for occupation, I wrote "student." If you want to be more specific, you add an adjective: kindergarten student, college student, graduate student, primary student, commercial student, instrument student, etc. I fail to see how "learner" is any less ambiguous.
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You didn't identify the analogue to "student pilot." When you are a pilot, for the first phase you are a student pilot, then a private pilot, then a commercial pilot, etc. When you are going through primary school, you are an elementary school student, then a middle school student, then a high school student, etc. In that case, if you use the word "student" it is not at all implied you mean elementary school specifically. However, when you use the word "student" in aviation it is implied that you mean "student pilot" because that's the only level where the word "student" is actually used in the name. If you use the word "learner," the reader does not need to stop and ask "wait does this mean a student pilot or a student beyond PPL." The same problem does not exist for primary school. If you use the word "student," the reader does not need to stop and ask "wait does this mean an elementary school student or a student beyond elementary school graduation."

Again, some people think it's not a big enough deal to be worth making changes. However, if you are not seeing the distinction, you are not understanding my point.
 
OK, so next time I arrive in an area requiring communication with ATC and I am not prepared for the flight, I should say "Incompetent Pilot?"

How about the opposite? I could say "Worlds Greatest Pilot" [Sorry, Bryan] and put them at rest, knowing I'll do everything perfectly and they need not worry about me...

Joe ATP as well as Jane Student Pilot can both screw up a radio call or misunderstand an ATC instruction, and I'm pretty sure those ATC folks will figure that out without the pilot identifying as a student pilot. Most beginner pilots are a little more careful with their communication and have not yet built up a repertoire of bad habits, such as we hear all the time on CTAF, IMHO. If they are prepared for the flight, they will handle everything just as well as anyone else.

Now,as far as using the word "lerner," that's just fooking stupid...
 
smv said:
That is just ridiculous. I tell my students to advise each new ATC facility upon initial callup. Not to ask for special handling, but to let ATC know to keep an eye on them and perhaps be a little gentler on issuing rapid-fire instructions.
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Of course it's ridiculous.

My instructor taught me to use it when I felt I needed it but not automatically. A tool, not a SOP. The result was that I didn't use it on either of my two solo cross countries. It's what I have passed on.
 
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Why must we have labels?
RingLaserGyroSandwich said:
You didn't identify the analogue to "student pilot." When you are a pilot, for the first phase you are a student pilot, then a private pilot, then a commercial pilot, etc. When you are going through primary school, you are an elementary school student, then a middle school student, then a high school student, etc. In that case, if you use the word "student" it is not at all implied you mean elementary school specifically. However, when you use the word "student" in aviation it is implied that you mean "student pilot" because that's the only level where the word "student" is actually used in the name. If you use the word "learner," the reader does not need to stop and ask "wait does this mean a student pilot or a student beyond PPL." The same problem does not exist for primary school. If you use the word "student," the reader does not need to stop and ask "wait does this mean an elementary school student or a student beyond elementary school graduation."

Again, some people think it's not a big enough deal to be worth making changes. However, if you are not seeing the distinction, you are not understanding my point.
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but are you an instrument learner, a commercial learner, an ATP learner?

are you soloing in another class as an unrated learner?

is someone with a student pilot certificate not a learner?

there are just as many ambiguities to “learner” as there are to “student”.
 
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MauleSkinner said:
there are just as many ambiguities to “learner” as there are to “student”.
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Of course there are. But that's going to be true of any word or phrase one can come up for general use. Reading he article, futile or not, it's not about avoiding a generic term for someone receiving training. It's about avoiding applying the term "student" generically when so many things apply to "student pilots" which do not apply after sport, rec, private pilot certification. It's not difficult to find threads where someone asks, "do I need to meet 61.87 requirements in order to solo in a new category or class after getting my private?"

I understand the rationale. But understanding does not equal agreement. Will it do anything? I kind of doubt it.
 
As I said in the original post, a colossal waste of time (and to add, everybody else’s money).

Cheers
 
midlifeflyer said:
Of course there are. But that's going to be true of any word or phrase one can come up for general use. Reading he article, futile or not, it's not about avoiding a generic term for someone receiving training. It's about avoiding applying the term "student" generically when so many things apply to "student pilots" which do not apply after sport, rec, private pilot certification. It's not difficult to find threads where someone asks, "do I need to meet 61.87 requirements in order to solo in a new category or class after getting my private?"

I understand the rationale. But understanding does not equal agreement. Will it do anything? I kind of doubt it.
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As always, words mean something. ;)

A “student pilot” is a specific thing, and i can’t say as I’ve seen or heard anyone apply that term to any other level of student.

I guess it’s just another solution in search of a problem.
 
The FAA seems to change wording of something every ten years or so. Doesn't seem worth getting worked up over.
 
Zeldman said:
When I actually was a student pilot, I was doing a cross country with flight following. When I got near my destination, the controller switched me to approach, which was a nice thing for him to coordinate for me. When checking in I identified myself as a student pilot.

The controller acknowledged. Then a big airliner checked in and also identified himself as a student pilot. The controller comes back with, ''Yeah, like that is gonna work...''
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That reminds me of a time years ago, i went to pick up a friends J-5A, that had no electrical system, I took a handheld with me and called ground and told them, negative electrical system, the controller said "That's fine, taxi....", and as i started to taxi a ComAir airliner called ground, and ended by saying positive electrical system, Thanks for the memories,
Gary
 
Gary Austin said:
That reminds me of a time years ago, i went to pick up a friends J-5A, that had no electrical system, I took a handheld with me and called ground and told them, negative electrical system, the controller said "That's fine, taxi....", and as i started to taxi a ComAir airliner called ground, and ended by saying positive electrical system, Thanks for the memories,
Gary
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Were they flying an aircraft wired by Lucas?
 
I guess it's going to take a while for the new terminology to make it into all of the relevant FAA publications. I just checked the new revision of the AIM that is dated July 16, 2020, and the phrase "student pilot" occurs MANY times in it. The word "learner" does not appear even once.
 
This seems like corporate America who have never been a student pilot got together with government America and decided they both needed something to do. Figured a year per each verbiage change oughta do.
 
Also, shouldn't their be a change for what a CFI is called? I mean students learn from instructors. Without a student, what's an Instructor? Call a spade a spade
 
Racerx said:
Also, shouldn't their be a change for what a CFI is called? I mean students learn from instructors. Without a student, what's an Instructor? Call a spade a spade
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"Teachers"?
 
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