Student seeking economical way to increase hours

[Marc Roberson]

I had my introductory flight last week. I am now considering a career-change to aviation. Is there a way to team up with other pilots who are also going up? I am just trying to become as marketable as possible and get experience. It is a field that thoroughly intrigues me. I study it outside of the classroom. I am doing all of this is in the name of safety because I want to be prepared as best I can for anything I might see. See you all in the sky.

 

[Kritchlow]

I had my introductory flight last week. I am now considering a career-change to aviation. Is there a way to team up with other pilots who are also going up? I am just trying to become as marketable as possible and get experience. It is a field that thoroughly intrigues me. I study it outside of the classroom. I am doing all of this is in the name of safety because I want to be prepared as best I can for anything I might see. See you all in the sky.

While I commend your go gettem' attitude, you are a long way yet from the need to build time for a job. Get your PPL, IR, CPL, ME, then it's time to make some decisions from there. Ultimately you will need an ATP (and then some) to get a good job, but how to get the ATP will be the next question. CFI? Get lucky??

 

[Marc Roberson]

Thank you. I guess I should have asked about teaming up with another pilot to get to the Commercial level of 250 hours.

 

[Clip4]

You cannot log team up time.

Pilot time
Pilot time means that time in which a person -
(i) Serves as a required pilot flight crewmember;
(ii) Receives training from an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device; or
(iii) Gives training as an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

You cannot log team up time.

Unless you are splitting hairs with the wording, that isn't necessarily so. There is legal SIC time that can be had that has value. But care has to be taken with documentation to make sure it is legit.

 

[Skyrys62]

Get that medical first...then start reading like hell.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Marc, it is not difficult to get to end level proficiency in 250 hours. But the key is to fly as often as possible. Also, look into a Part 141 training program. You can get to the Commercial Certificate in a lot fewer hours. Be advised that ther are pros and cons to that route.

 

[mtuomi]

Unless you are splitting hairs with the wording, that isn't necessarily so. There is legal SIC time that can be had that has value. But care has to be taken with documentation to make sure it is legit.

Safety pilot hours are PIC, not SIC.

 

[Marc Roberson]

Thank you all. If I am understanding correctly, hours as SIC -may- be possible, and Part 141 may allow for less hours to be completed for the CPL if it's stipulations are followed. I did read up on Part 141 and it was suggested that it might be a good program for those who wish to fly professionally. I don't know how accurate that is. After reading these replies, I will focus on the medical first, and once that is done, take it step by step and maybe after PPL is completed, then start considering any SIC possibilities and so forth.

 

[denverpilot]

I had my introductory flight last week. I am now considering a career-change to aviation.

Welcome Marc.

You may want to post your general area of the country, folks here may have ideas for references to schools or flight instructors.

 

[Marc Roberson]

Definitely.

Offutt AFB, Omaha NE now until May 2018
Cincinnati OH afterwards (home)

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Safety pilot hours are PIC, not SIC.

That is not a given. Certain conditions must be met for it to be PIC. The safety pilot must be fully qualified and willing to be the legal PIC in order to log it as such. Otherwise it is SIC.

 

[catmandu]

Definitely.

Offutt AFB, Omaha NE now until May 2018
Cincinnati OH afterwards (home)

Find a program that maximizes your veteran benefits vs. flight hours received.

 

[JustinD]

That is not a given. Certain conditions must be met for it to be PIC. The safety pilot must be fully qualified and willing to be the legal PIC in order to log it as such. Otherwise it is SIC.

That's a risky generalization to make. You can not legally log SIC in an airplane that is type certificated for single pilot, unless the FAA ops spec of the company requires two pilots. Further more in a jet who's captain contains the single pilot type rating you also can not log SIC in that unless again the ops spec of the company for which the jet is operated under requires two pilots

I have over my flying career seen several people who have made these mistakes and logged sic in a 182 for instance and had it bite them in the rear when they find out all that flight time doesn't count

The only way for two people to log flight time in a single pilot bird that is privately owned is to either log it as dual received/dual given, or as safety pilot time in which case both pilots would be logging PIC because one can not act as a safety pilot in a plane they are not qualified to fly and then it reverts back to how they can't log SIC in it for the reasons above

 

[paflyer]

Thank you all. If I am understanding correctly, hours as SIC -may- be possible, and Part 141 may allow for less hours to be completed for the CPL if it's stipulations are followed. I did read up on Part 141 and it was suggested that it might be a good program for those who wish to fly professionally. I don't know how accurate that is. After reading these replies, I will focus on the medical first, and once that is done, take it step by step and maybe after PPL is completed, then start considering any SIC possibilities and so forth.

Be certain you can pass a first class medical (third for now, first for when you go pro later) before you make an appointment with an AME.

 

[bobmrg]

I had my introductory flight last week. I am now considering a career-change to aviation. Is there a way to team up with other pilots who are also going up? I am just trying to become as marketable as possible and get experience. It is a field that thoroughly intrigues me. I study it outside of the classroom. I am doing all of this is in the name of safety because I want to be prepared as best I can for anything I might see. See you all in the sky.

This is from ASA's Reader Reference page for THE COMPLETE PRIVATE PILOT;

Logging Time
The following PDFs provide helpful FAA legal interpretations of some very common questions. The logging of flight time, especially pilot-in-command time, is important to all pilots. Insurance companies and future employers look to the PIC column when making decisions affecting your flying career. It's tempting to stretch some definitions to try and count as PIC some questionable flight experiences. These interpretations of Part 61 by the Office of the General Counsel will help you avoid having your logbook entries viewed as suspicious.

• Safety Pilot Cross-Country
• Logging Cross-Country Time
• Repositioning
• Logging PIC Flowchart

1. 
   In short:
2. Unless the aircraft requires more than one pilot for the ENTIRE flight then only one pilot can log cross country time and only if he or she is the sole manipulator for the ENTIRE flight.
3. A repositioning flight is acceptable to allow the pilot to setup a subsequent flight as a cross country flight.

Greg Bockleman's point is well taken, but as a not-current examiner I would look askance at any attempt to count shared-pilot time on a private pilot certificate application.

Bob Gardner

 

[Sinistar]

Obviously verify you can get your required medical first.

To build hours, I would think if you could purchase a older 152/172 (or equivalent low wing) that at least has a Navcom/VOR/transponder then fly it as much as possible. Ideally partner with one other person with similar interest to split the mx and hangar costs. I've been using our 182 to learn in...but flying requirements are mostly in hours flown, not miles flown or fuel used so if want to build those hours why not just own something that burns 8gph or less but still has electrical, heavier to fly on winder days, etc.

Or maybe some type of flying club? I would think around a AFB there'd be a flying club and instructors and a handful of CFI's.

My wife bought a old Aeronca Chief and flew it several hundred hours to build PIC time. Obviously she didn't use it for the IR, MEL, Commercial, etc.

At the FBO where I am training one of the line guys is using his GI bill under their 141 program. I believe he's finished PPL, IR and just wrapping up his commercial. He said he's only taken a few small loans, mainly to finish quicker. So don't forget about your veteran benifits...however using them towards a trade, tech or college program might give you the job you can always fall back on if you should lose your medical.

 

[Marc Roberson]

Thank you all for the replies. I will continue to look in to the regulations regarding Part 141. As Bob Gardner points out, it is unlikely (if not impossible) any time can be added to flight hours if I were to "team up" with another pilot for CC. I will, however, explore the possibility of purchasing an aircraft and sharing the hanger/tie-down & maintenance cost with someone else. At this point, going Part 141 & pursuing that option seems to be the most economical way to reach CPL.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

That's a risky generalization to make. You can not legally log SIC in an airplane that is type certificated for single pilot, unless the FAA ops spec of the company requires two pilots. Further more in a jet who's captain contains the single pilot type rating you also can not log SIC in that unless again the ops spec of the company for which the jet is operated under requires two pilots

Look at FAR 61.51(f)(2) which states:

2) Holds the appropriate category, class, and instrument rating (if an instrument rating is required for the flight) for the aircraft being flown, and more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted.

That "or" is what allows a safety pilot to log SIC time in this situation and it only applies when the other pilot is under a view limiting device.

The only way one can log PIC in this case is if that person is in fact the legal acting PIC of that flight and there may be reasons why someone may not want to, or cannot, take that responsibility. Not to mention the insurance ramifications for doing so.

 

[labbadabba]

The only way one can log PIC in this case is if that person is in fact the legal acting PIC of that flight and there may be reasons why someone may not want to, or cannot, take that responsibility. Not to mention the insurance ramifications for doing so.

Agreed, but in practice, I'd say this is more the exception to the rule. I've never had someone fly with me who has been unwilling to accept PIC responsibility as a Safety Pilot. Otherwise, what's the point?

 

[Sinistar]

If you do look into ownership, know that your insurance might be kinda spendy at first. There's a lot to owning a plane: initial aircraft cost, annuals, hangar rental, insurance and of course fuel. You can research and know most of them in advance. The maintenance and annuals are the tough ones to budget for precisely.

Other interesting arrangements include finding a A&P who's also a pilot and wants to split costs...partnering with a A&P can really help with the mx costs.

A friend of ours found a great gig. An older guy with a nice 172 can't fly due to medical. But he wants his plane flown regularily so our friend gets PIC hours, sometime with the owner, sometimes alone for fuel cost only.

In almost every case, having your PPL first would be best.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Agreed, but in practice, I'd say this is more the exception to the rule. I've never had someone fly with me who has been unwilling to accept PIC responsibility as a Safety Pilot. Otherwise, what's the point?

As to the question? The point is that it is total time and when you are building time, an hour is an hour whether it is PIC or SIC.

As far as the responsibility goes, if one accepts the responsibility of acting as PIC, it would behove on to make sure he is insured for that operation.

 

[James331]

Once you get your ticket you can shotgun hours, read up on "safety pilot".

After your CPL, get a job and build hours while getting paid

 

[Marc Roberson]

Thank you james I will.

 

[tlglenn]

A non-PIC safety pilot can log SIC time even if not acting as SIC i.e. plane requires only one pilot. Sort of like being able to log PIC time when not acting as PIC. There are unusual logging scenarios that the OP shouldn't worry about right now.

An employer, however, may refuse to recognize safety pilot SIC time.

 

[dmspilot]

Safety pilot hours are PIC, not SIC.

No. Being a safety pilot doesn't automatically make you PIC nor allow you to log PIC.

If the safety pilot is acting as PIC, it may be logged as PIC. If the safety pilot is not acting PIC (acting PIC would be forbidden if, for example, the airplane is high performance and the safety pilot does not have the high performance endorsement) the safety pilot is SIC and can only log SIC time.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

An employer, however, may refuse to recognize safety pilot SIC time.

That's their prerogative. But it still has value when building time for ratings.

 

[dmspilot]

one can not act as a safety pilot in a plane they are not qualified to fly and then it reverts back to how

No. There are many rules that apply only to the pilot in command and not other required crewmembers, e.g. endorsements such as high performance.

they can't log SIC in it for the reasons above

No. The regulation that allows safety pilots to log SIC time uses virtually identical wording to the one allowing them to log PIC time. You can't acknowledge one and then deny the other; it's illogical.

61.65 (e)(1)(iii) says PIC time may be logged: "When the pilot, except for a holder of a sport or recreational pilot certificate, acts as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted"

61.65 (f)(2) says SIC time may be logged when the pilot: "Holds the appropriate category, class, and instrument rating (if an instrument rating is required for the flight) for the aircraft being flown, and more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted."

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Key word being "Or".

 

[Skyrys62]

The wife is usually SIC.
Spectator in command.

just do what she says and back off the controls slooowly.

 

[Marc Roberson]

No. There are many rules that apply only to the pilot in command and not other required crewmembers, e.g. endorsements such as high performance.



No. The regulation that allows safety pilots to log SIC time uses virtually identical wording to the one allowing them to log PIC time. You can't acknowledge one and then deny the other; it's illogical.

61.65 (e)(1)(iii) says PIC time may be logged: "When the pilot, except for a holder of a sport or recreational pilot certificate, acts as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted"

61.65 (f)(2) says SIC time may be logged when the pilot: "Holds the appropriate category, class, and instrument rating (if an instrument rating is required for the flight) for the aircraft being flown, and more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted."

My interpretation of 61.65(f)(2) is that since more than one pilot would not be required for, let's say, an hour of flight in a Cessna 172, I would not be able to log any hours. Is that correct or the other way around

I do see the first part that says "or the regulations under which the flight is conducted." I also wonder what that means by "regulations"

 

[dmspilot]

My interpretation of 61.65(f)(2) is that since more than one pilot would not be required for, let's say, an hour of flight in a Cessna 172, I would not be able to log any hours. Is that correct or the other way around

I do see the first part that says "or the regulations under which the flight is conducted." I also wonder what that means by "regulations"

Under simulated instrument flight a safety pilot is required.

You are jumping the gun a little in that a student can only log time when receiving instruction (or is solo). But riding along with other pilots can be valuable even when you can't log anything.

 

[Marc Roberson]

I was talking after PPL, on way to CPL.

 

[tlglenn]

That's their prerogative. But it still has value when building time for ratings.

Agreed. I've logged all of my SIC safety pilot time.

 

[Wheels]

My interpretation of 61.65(f)(2) is that since more than one pilot would not be required for, let's say, an hour of flight in a Cessna 172, I would not be able to log any hours. Is that correct or the other way around

I do see the first part that says "or the regulations under which the flight is conducted." I also wonder what that means by "regulations"

91.109
(c) No person may operate a civil aircraft in simulated instrument flight unless—

(1) The other control seat is occupied by a safety pilot who possesses at least a private pilot certificate with category and class ratings appropriate to the aircraft being flown.

That regulation requires a second pilot so if you are flying under the hood then you are conducting the flight under regulation 91.109.

 

[SkyDog58]

I've only flown as safety pilot a few times for a friend. Maybe 5 hours. But basically I was just looking for traffic, making sure my friend didn't get disoriented, help listen for radio calls, etc. I barely touched the controls. I saw no value in it as logged time and I have no need to pad my logbook so I didn't log it. I want my logged time to be my flight time, not Joe's.

 

[Marc Roberson]

Be certain you can pass a first class medical (third for now, first for when you go pro later) before you make an appointment with an AME.

The physical became much more in-depth, requiring at-least one more test by a cardiologist after I disclosed two surgeries and two medical conditions. Just like you said, be sure you can pass the physical. Luckily, though, the doctor seemed confident these will not be show-stoppers.

 

[denverpilot]

The physical became much more in-depth, requiring at-least one more test by a cardiologist after I disclosed two surgeries and two medical conditions. Just like you said, be sure you can pass the physical. Luckily, though, the doctor seemed confident these will not be show-stoppers.

Two things.

A) Never ever apply for the medical until you know you'll pass it. Consult with the doctor first without an application. Once the application begins, the clock on various things starts ticking. Sounds like you're already into the process.

B) Never use a doctor who "seemed confident". Use a doctor who will consult BEFORE the application and KNOWS the things FAA requires to PASS. Preferably one who can tell the FAA that all the required things are done and issue the medical in-office. If they don't know, don't apply until you've talked with a doctor who does know.

 

[unsafervguy]

I've only flown as safety pilot a few times for a friend. Maybe 5 hours. But basically I was just looking for traffic, making sure my friend didn't get disoriented, help listen for radio calls, etc. I barely touched the controls. I saw no value in it as logged time and I have no need to pad my logbook so I didn't log it. I want my logged time to be my flight time, not Joe's.

that is your call, but the regulations allow for it to be logged if you wish to.