Student Pilot Question: Should I ban the iPad from the cockpit during PPL training?

[alessandrocotrufo]

Hi everyone, happy to be here. My name is Alessandro Cotrufo and I’m a student pilot based in Simi Valley, CA, just starting my PPL journey.

I wanted to get the community's take on a debate I’ve been having with my instructor. I’m naturally more on the tech-savvy side along with most people in my age range, and I’ve already set myself up with a subscription to ForeFlight and an iPad mount.

However, I’ve heard conflicting advice from older pilots at the hangar who say I should ban the iPad from the cockpit entirely until after I get my license to ensure I actually learn dead reckoning and pilotage properly.

Is relying on the "magenta line" really that detrimental to early learning, or is that just an old-school mentality? I want to build safe habits for my future flying in California airspace, but I also don't want to ignore modern tools that increase situational awareness and would generally make me a better pilot.

What did you all do during your primary training? Did you stick to 100% paper charts, or did you mix in the tech?

 

[AvNavCom]

Like a lot of folks on here, I learned to fly before there was GPS in the cockpit, let alone iPads, magenta lines, and ADSB. Navigation was by pilotage, NDB, and VOR. But that was years ago. My take is this:

Train as you fight, fight as you train. Translated into aviation, this means learn to fly as you mean to continue to fly, ideally with the instrumentation and tech you'll be using during your checkride and afterwards. There's no one handing out cookies after landing for doing it old-school.

That said, fundamentals are important and navigating by pilotage is the best way to improve your situational awareness of your local environment. You need to be able to fly and navigate the aircraft when the tech fails. If there's a sudden GPS outage (not inconceivable), you can't be flailing around the sky. Bringing a paper chart into the aircraft is a little ridiculous in modern aviation, but turning off your "own ship" marker on your iPad and just using the sectional layer as a map will achieve the same thing. Do a few cross-countries with your CFI by pilotage doing that and I think you'll appreciate what the old-timers are trying to convey.

But yeah, "ban the iPad until you're a PP" is not great advice for modern aviation, especially if you're in SoCal airspace.

Edit: typo

 

[rk911]

I didn't bring my iPad into the cockpit until AFTER I passed the checkride. But I quickly removed it from my flight bag as I was paying more attention to it rather than keeping my eyes up looking out the windscreen. Yes, the plane had a Garmin built-in but I planned my fights on paper sectionals along with notes, frequencies and destination airport diagrams on my knee pad.

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

I learned in the GPS era, never used it until after PPL. Paper all the way. The modern tools are super easy to adopt later.

 

[AvNavCom]

...notes, frequencies and destination airport diagrams on my knee pad.

Fully with you on the kneepad. Had a CFI a while back gently make fun of me for using one. But it doesn't run out of batteries or overheat, and when my iPad dies I already have all of my frequencies, runways, and other pertinents right there as a reference. I can't tell how often a quick glance at my kneepad has saved me from sounding like a moron when I try to remember the number of the runway I'm landing on!

 

[Tarheelpilot]

No

 

[SixPapaCharlie]

I would use the ipad. It adds situational awareness and at a minimum alerts you to traffic of which you might not otherwise be aware.

Learn to fly the plane you are flying. Know it, know how it works, know how to use its equipment. 15 years ago on this forum all the old guys were saying "What are you gonna do when the batteries die?"
I am now becoming one of the old guys. in 15 years, I don't know anyone that has had an EFB failure related incident.

The aircraft I flew today had 5 permanently mounted ipads in it. AND we are require to have 2 actual ipads.
Just know how to fly the equipment you are in. Eschewing the EFB is in a sense removing an additional tool for situational awareness. Why would that be a good idea?

GET ON MY LAWN!










EDIT: I am not discounting learning actual stick and rudder skills. I don't believe flying with an ipad and learning how to fly properly are mutually exclusive. I assume, you can learn all your CFI needs you to learn and become a tailwheel pilot, get a seaplane rating, learn to fly a glider, etc all the while having in the plane with you a device that can alert you to traffic and weather. Yes, learn to be a good pilot. Having an iPad won't prevent that.

 

[TCABM]

…Is relying on the "magenta line" really that detrimental to early learning, or is that just an old-school mentality?

I want to build safe habits for my future flying in California airspace, but I also don't want to ignore modern tools that increase situational awareness and would generally make me a better pilot….

You’ve presented a binary choice laced with bias without acknowledging there is a continuum. Also, I’m not sure you even know what it means when you wrote relying on the magenta line.

Please watch this video; you may not understand the technical stuff, but the concepts still apply to a student pilot. 2x is fine.

Afterwards, I suggest you open the Private Pilot ACS and review the Skills PA.VI.A.S2 thru PA.VI.A.S6. That is the standard you must demonstrate on your checkride. It can be done with an EFB. You may be required to hide your ownship position and not enable moving map features. That is a perfectly allowable restriction.

Remember, you may strive for enhanced safety thru the implementation of technology and automation in your flying, but the totality of your skills will be required in each and every helmet fire, abnormal condition/procedure, and emergency you experience. That is when you will begin to understand the value of your skills independent of the technology and automation available to you.

 

[M20K]

I'm a strong believer that your CFI should be teaching you how to use an EFB while flying. It is how you're going to fly once you get your PPC and if the CFI does it during your lessons, you'll learn the *gotchas* of "You really shouldn't be looking down at your iPad right now!"

But I also think students/learners should be taught the principles of what the EFB is doing for you. So starting off with the old paper chart and an E6B is a good thing to crunch the numbers is a good thing. Once you have the principles down, the CFI should start entering the EFB into the lessons starting with limited use and transitioning to full time use.

 

[Clip4]

You ask for CFI opinion. I believe in training like you fight. When you get your private, you are going to use an EFB. So incorporate it now. Unless your instructor prohibits EFBs as a solo restriction in your logbook, you can use what ever you want solo because you are PIC.

Today the availability of section charts and chart supplements locally is usually very limited and Sectionals and Chart Supplements expire every 56 days. The EFBs allow ease of obtaining current charts.

If the IPad is in airplane mode, all the student has is an electronic sectional and I know of zero DPEs that will not permit them on a practical test. You do need a back up and as long as you have a smart phone that works, but some instructors may desire you have a paper back up.

If the student operates in airspace rich environments, I prefer an EFB to paper everyday of the week.

One CFI concern may be IPad over heating if you train in hot climate and battery discharge if your plane does not have a charging USB. Depending on the aircraft, screen glare can be another issue. These are training topics.

I do have a big problem with IPad mounts. I hate them on the control wheel and the other mounts usually block vision and become an added mid air collision risk. If the mounts become dislodged in flight, this can big a big distraction in a critical phase of flight for students. Pilots who use mounts usually become a child of the magenta line and that’s not what is desirable in pilot training.

 

[Gary Ward]

In 2015 when I was training in a 6 pak 172, about a third of the way through training my instructors started using a I pad and a stick on the window stratus. I didn't know what it was for until the end of training. They never showed it to me until the end before my check ride. My X country's solos were with paper charts. The plane had a 530 gps in it and I didn't know how to use it for the solos, they did show me the direct to button
A few weeks before my check ride I got my own Ipad and FF.
I prepared for my check ride on paper chart and I pad.
The DPE was pro FF, we spend a considerable amount of time during the ground portion, him showing me how it worked. He took a quick look at my paper chart planning and the rest of the time was spent talking about FF. I bet it took up 45 mins of my roughly 1.5 hrs ground.
I did not use the I pad during the flying part of my check ride.

 

[Clip4]

Is relying on the "magenta line" really that detrimental to early learning, or is that just an old-school mentality? I want to build safe habits for my future flying in California airspace, but I also don't want to ignore modern tools that increase situational awareness and would generally make me a better pilot.

Yes, there are 3 skills for navigation (pilotage, Dead Reckoning and electronic navigation) and you must be proficient in all 3. On the practical test, there will be no magenta line for you to use and you are going to be placed in a lost situation for you to work yourself out of.

Students who rely on the magenta line do not develop pilotage skills. During a GPS outage, violating that future California airspace becomes more probable.

 

[geezer]

Failure mode in the old school.

My instructor told me of his first solo cross country in an early Cessna 150. He carefully plotted the route on his sectional, wrote a complete FAA VFR flight plan. That includes altitude and heading, plus miles and minutes, for each leg. Airport identifiers, and frequencies are there too.

All that was on his knee board as he departed, and flew his first 2 legs, turned to the new heading, and half way to his next turn, had to refold the sectional. In the midst of this gyration, he had a violent bump from sun induced thermals, his left arm hit that infamous window latch, and it opened. The sectional was gone, and he had a dilemma. 180 turn, fly the part of the cross country he had jus done, and 'knew' at least some, or continue with faith in his course holding skills, etc. over unfamiliar terrain.

The 180 won, he noted the time at the turn, and found all the turning points right on time.

The point is that having non volatile data enough to fly safely if the normal systems let you down is wise, whether you are magenta, or charts. Work out with your instructor what you both feel is the right balance.

There is never just one right answer, and the best answer changes day to day.

Best wishes, questions of this sort are good ones.

 

[RyanB]

Use the iPad, but don’t let it distract you.

 

[Jim K]

Turning off the GPS or "own ship" icon would be of value. Learn to use the charts without the magenta line. Learn the actual sectional charts too, not the dumbed down version. Best done when you're with your cfi so they can still take advantage of the traffic awareness on their device.

I'd also suggest than when you're staying in the pattern, it's nothing more than a distraction.

I don't think paper charts are really worth using in the air any more. I would suggest buying one to get familiar with them and all the info on them. Use it for learning how to plan cross country's. Yes, your iPad will do it for you, but you still need to learn to do it manually so you can apply the TLAR test(That Looks About Right) to the data the efb is giving you.

I used an efb when I was doing ppl, but I also learned paper. I used paper on my checkride and my dpe acted like it was kind of weird. It was nice to spread that big chart out and talk about it during the oral exam though. I used my tablet on my ifr ride... and of course the dpe "failed" it, so I pulled out my paper approach chart book. Only one I ever bought. I think a backup tablet might make more sense today.

 

[Ed Haywood]

Do what your CFI says. If you don't trust him enough to listen to him, get a new one.

 

[strikes2k]

Late stage student pilot here. My CFI encouraged me to get an iPAD fairly early on so had it for most of my training. I still try to be cognizant of the physical landmarks when I fly though and not just look at the map and the little plane to know where I am. I planned all my cross countries using paper navlogs and a paper chart. I want to KNOW how to do it the old way even if it may not be my standard methodology when flying. A couple of interesting plus/minuses to both:

1) If you plan your flight on paper, including all the dead reckoning, it's likely you'll be doing that hours or more before your flight. It won't be as accurate as FF which will have up to the minute data almost to when you start your flight. That's a plus for FF.

2) If you use paper, you're likely to put down all the relevant information for any airports you'll be visiting such as frequencies, runways etc.....that will actually be more accessible than having to fiddle with FF to find it. So that's kind of a plus for paper. When doing your cross country solos, not having to change a bunch of screens on the iPAD is one less thing to have to worry about when you're already somewhat task saturated.

Last thing. Not sure which airport you're flying out of but if it's Van Nuys I assume there's lots of traffic. I did most of my training in six packs, some with hybrid avionics, but it was beneficial to me to have the iPAD and a Sentry for ADSB in. I fly out of KAPA which is about on par with Van Nuys for traffic. I didn't have the sentry for my first solo away from the airport so didn't have any electronic method for observing traffic. That was a harrowng experience and I came home and immediately purchased a sentry so I wouldn't have to rely on the plane having ADSB in.

 

[Silvaire]

Your primary goal now is learning how to aviate, as in control the aircraft. I'd concentrate on that 100%. If you have a flight sim like MS or X-plane (and why wouldn't you in this day and age) you can use that to master the iPad, as well as things like the Garmin 530 or 1000, VOR's and even dead reckoning navigation without paying $150/hr while you're learning it. When you are in the cockpit you don't want to be pushing buttons and wondering "gosh darn it, why is it doing that" With a modern sim you can have that all figured out before you get in the air.

 

[M20K]

I know of zero DPEs that will not permit them on a practical test.

You shouldn't ever hear about it happening (anymore)... Per the FAA, a DPE cannot prevent someone from using an EFB. Now they can fail it and see what the candidate does, but if they pull out a second device and the DPE fails it too, then the DPE is going to have some explainging to do. (If anyone is not sure why, the odds of two devices failing are so high, it would not be a realistic situation.)

 

[Piperonca]

Be creative, as in when you suddenly lose nav do you still have commo? Ask for help, especially if radar is available, as an example. I'm old and only have stories to tell, but know that if you fly long enough, something is going to go to hell and give you a challenge. Always have plans up your sleeve for every failure mode to include all those electrons.

Then be a proud PP (Prepared Pilot).

 

[midlifeflyer]

What did you all do during your primary training? Did you stick to 100% paper charts, or did you mix in the tech?

I’m a little too old for EFBs when I trained for my private. Even for the instrument, high tech, was a DOS computer, a 9600 baud modem, a dot-matrix printer, and the original DUAT.

But I’ll answer your question anyway.

No, EFBs should absolutely not be banned from PPL training. And, as a CFI, I’ll add that CFIs who do are doing a huge disservice to their clients.

 

[midlifeflyer]

(If anyone is not sure why, the odds of two devices failing are so high, it would not be a realistic situation.)

I suspect you are right about that, but I can’t help but wonder…

Yes, I know that the primary EFB failure is heat shutdown. It happened to a client when we were doing an IPC. And for that, yes, a hardware backup failure is unlikely. But, in 15 years, my only EFB failure was due to a ForeFlight bug. That would seem to increase the odds a bit, no?

 

[Dana]

I am now becoming one of the old guys. in 15 years, I don't know anyone that has had an EFB failure related incident.

I did, if you can call it that. I was threading my way through unfamiliar airspace between a TRSA and several class Ds in deteriorating weather (poor visibility and low scattered going broken) in a new-to-me airplane when the GPS lost its signal. Dealing with the weather, the nearby airspace, the unfamiliar open cockpit plane, all while trying to reset the GPS (I got it back in a few minutes) made for some anxious moments.

But I also think students/learners should be taught the principles of what the EFB is doing for you. So starting off with the old paper chart and an E6B is a good thing to crunch the numbers is a good thing. Once you have the principles down, the CFI should start entering the EFB into the lessons starting with limited use and transitioning to full time use.

We all talk about the electronics being great for situational awareness and I agree, but a large part of that situational awareness includes being able to recognize features on the ground and orient yourself without the electronics telling you, "yes, that's where you are." Without a GPS, you're going to occasionally get into a bit of anxiety about not being 100% certain where you are... and learning to deal with that anxiety and trust your navigation is something a pilot has to learn (in some ways like "trust the instruments, not your inner ear" when flying in IMC).

 

[Clip4]

I’m a little too old for EFBs when I trained for my private. Even for the instrument, high tech, wasa DOS computer, a 9600 baud modem, a dot-matrix printer, and the original DUAT.

But I’ll answer your question anyway.

No, EFBs should absolutely not be banned from PPL training. And, as a CFI, I’ll add that CFIs who do are doing a huge disservice to their clients.

When I trained an electronic E6B was high tech.

 

[Clip4]

Failure mode in the old school.

My instructor told me of his first solo cross country in an early Cessna 150. He carefully plotted the route on his sectional, wrote a complete FAA VFR flight plan. That includes altitude and heading, plus miles and minutes, for each leg. Airport identifiers, and frequencies are there too.

All that was on his knee board as he departed, and flew his first 2 legs, turned to the new heading, and half way to his next turn, had to refold the sectional. In the midst of this gyration, he had a violent bump from sun induced thermals, his left arm hit that infamous window latch, and it opened. The sectional was gone, and he had a dilemma. 180 turn, fly the part of the cross country he had jus done, and 'knew' at least some, or continue with faith in his course holding skills, etc. over unfamiliar terrain.

The 180 won, he noted the time at the turn, and found all the turning points right on time.

The point is that having non volatile data enough to fly safely if the normal systems let you down is wise, whether you are magenta, or charts. Work out with your instructor what you both feel is the right balance.

There is never just one right answer, and the best answer changes day to day.

Best wishes, questions of this sort are good ones.

Sorry, but I am going to call BS on the window accidentally opened and the chart got sucked out the window.

 

[Piperonca]

Sorry, but I am going to call BS on the window accidentally opened a the chart blew out the window.

I had it happen in a helicopter, once.

 

[geezer]

It would seem unlikely that you have flown a 1960 Cessna 150 with the flip up window latches. I have had them pop repeatedly in summer turbulence, and "enjoyed" the resulting violent airflow. Some pilots ducktaped them to prevent such events, but I was not willing to give up on the ground ventilation.

Sorry, but I am going to call BS on the window accidentally opened and the chart got sucked out the window.

 

[M20K]

That would seem to increase the odds a bit, no?

Very true. If you update the software (not just DB update) on both devices the second the update comes out, you could screw yourself.

Guess if you're not already talking to ATC, that's when you get on Guard and get a frequency. Then have them direct you to the nearest sutable Airport so you can figure out what's going on.

 

[M20K]

We all talk about the electronics being great for situational awareness and I agree, but a large part of that situational awareness includes being able to recognize features on the ground and orient yourself without the electronics telling you, "yes, that's where you are." Without a GPS, you're going to occasionally get into a bit of anxiety about not being 100% certain where you are... and learning to deal with that anxiety and trust your navigation is something a pilot has to learn (in some ways like "trust the instruments, not your inner ear" when flying in IMC).

Not seeing your point... well, maybe I am, but you're coming at it from the wrong proscpective. Just because the EFB/GPS *can* show you exactly where you are, you can easily disable the GPS and/or the Ownship for training purposes. So still no reason not to be teaching the student/learner while using the EFB (again, after they understand the principles).

They can manually moving the map around, looking up Frequencies in the EFB instead of the crappy Sectional, etc., etc. You may not have ever flown in conjested airspace with multiple Airpors, Navaids, etc., cramed into 3 sq/in. The Sectional is NOT your friend in those areas.

 

[Racerx]

Just turn ownship off. Save the trees.

Fwiw, I also learned with paper. There's a bit of nostalgia I enjoyed.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Very true. If you update the software (not just DB update) on both devices the second the update comes out, you could screw yourself.

Guess if you're not already talking to ATC, that's when you get on Guard and get a frequency. Then have them direct you to the nearest sutable Airport so you can figure out what's going on.

When it happened to me, it was a Foreflight bug. I was being vectored for an instrument approach and it froze. It mattered because the airplane was "old school" avionics; the most modern item was a GNS530, so EFB was my only chart source. It was early enough in the vectoring process that I had plenty of time to switch to my backup app. Only point is that electronic backups might be hardware; or it might be software; or it might be both.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Fwiw, I also learned with paper. There's a bit of nostalgia I enjoyed.

I’ve never been able to manage electronic sectional charts well enough to keep the scale where I need it for low VFR flying.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I’ve never been able to manage electronic sectional charts well enough to keep the scale where I need it for low VFR flying.

I don't know if this is what your are referring to but one thing I came across in terms of VFR flying is that own ship on an EFB has the potential to enhance VFR skills. I'm thinking back to both myself when I was being trained and to student pilots I trained later. The CFI will point out some feature on a paper sectional and point to it on the ground. The student will obligingly say, "oh yeah!" while internally, thinking, "WTF? I don't see that." Sectionals try to depict ground references, but there are limitations inherent in the medium. Treated as a teaching tool, the EFB, zoomed to whatever level makes the most sense to the pilot, can help the pilot makes those visual connections.

 

[MauleSkinner]

I don't know if this is what your are referring to but one thing I came across in terms of VFR flying is that own ship on an EFB has the potential to enhance VFR skills. I'm thinking back to both myself when I was being trained and to student pilots I trained later. The CFI will point out some feature on a paper sectional and point to it on the ground. The student will obligingly say, "oh yeah!" while internally, thinking, "WTF? I don't see that." Sectionals try to depict ground references, but there are limitations inherent in the medium. Treated as a teaching tool, the EFB, zoomed to whatever level makes the most sense to the pilot, can help the pilot makes those visual connections.

When I’m flying below 1000 AGL in limited visibility, my brain can stay in sync with the airplane up to about 130 knots, but the chart scale has to be the normal sectional 500,000:1 so I can figure distances at a glance. I actually can’t navigate down low with a WAC or TAC to the level of accuracy that I need.

 

[alessandrocotrufo]

Thank you so much everyone for the replies, I am reading them all and I will be taking your advice with a heavy heart

 

[Jaminky]

I used about half and half paper and whizwheel vs Foreflight.I used paper and E6B for the sole reason of helping me understand what actually is going on but I ditched it immediately after my check ride.I think paper is a good way to learn,going to electronic maps is effortless after that but not so much the other way around

 

[Ed Haywood]

How many people still carry paper maps? I know it has been at least 10 years since I touched a sectional.

If you don't carry them, what is the benefit of knowing how to use one?

 

[Piperonca]

How many people still carry paper maps? I know it has been at least 10 years since I touched a sectional.

If you don't carry them, what is the benefit of knowing how to use one?

CFI buddy of mine, who used to be an F-18 driver, said two EFB in the cockpit is adequate back up. No paper needed, according to him.

Fair enough. If the instructor teaches us that way, the examiner grades that way, so be it. My belief is the prepared Pilot needs to have situation awareness. This may consist of preflight reconnaissance using a large scale map in a planning room. Ever seen those? In my day we used MOCA to determine minimum altitude and performance requirements. GPS is fine until it suddenly isn’t. Somebody needs to come up with a certified but affordable GA inertial nav system. /rant

 

[captainbobwalsh]

Hi everyone, happy to be here. My name is Alessandro Cotrufo and I’m a student pilot based in Simi Valley, CA, just starting my PPL journey.

I wanted to get the community's take on a debate I’ve been having with my instructor. I’m naturally more on the tech-savvy side along with most people in my age range, and I’ve already set myself up with a subscription to ForeFlight and an iPad mount.

However, I’ve heard conflicting advice from older pilots at the hangar who say I should ban the iPad from the cockpit entirely until after I get my license to ensure I actually learn dead reckoning and pilotage properly.

Is relying on the "magenta line" really that detrimental to early learning, or is that just an old-school mentality? I want to build safe habits for my future flying in California airspace, but I also don't want to ignore modern tools that increase situational awareness and would generally make me a better pilot.

What did you all do during your primary training? Did you stick to 100% paper charts, or did you mix in the tech?

Are you learning to fly or are you learning to go between point A and point B? Anything that takes your attention away from looking out the window for other airplanes or land markings to figure out where you are is harmful and a bad habit. Avoid bad habits, your instructor knows what a bad habit is, listen to him/her.

 

[StraightnLevel]

Learn to use the iPad w/FF. Once you have your PPL, you'll be using it, so better to train with it. Paper charts aren't the norm anymore, so learn to use the EFB and carry a backup.

That said, train yourself to look outside. Until you're flying IFR, you should avoid fixating inside the cockpit.