student pilot flying without a cfi....

korben88

korben88

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As a pre solo student pilot, can you practice maneuvers with a pilot in the right seat that isn't a CFI, or is there some rule against it?

I'm guessing yes, but I can't log the time but I want to be sure.


Thanks
 
saddletramp said:
Perfectly legal. You can't log it because the licensed pilot is the pilot-in-command.

The more flying the better - even if it's not logged.
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True to your first point, but I'm not in agreement with your second. A PP trying to teach may not be a good thing. Bad habits can be hard to break. Leave the teaching to the CFI's. Obviously I'm assuming the PP is butting in giving advice/pointers.
 
Kritchlow said:
True to your first point, but I'm not in agreement with your second. A PP trying to teach may not be a good thing. Bad habits can be hard to break. Leave the teaching to the CFI's. Obviously I'm assuming the PP is butting in giving advice/pointers.
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Good point Kritchlow. As a seasoned CFI myself I can appreciate what you said.
 
saddletramp said:
Perfectly legal. You can't log it because the licensed pilot is the pilot-in-command.

The more flying the better - even if it's not logged.
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Minor correction, you can't log it because you're not rated in the airplane.
 
korben88 said:
There wouldn't be any "teaching" just an opportunity to fly and practice.
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I doubt that. It's simply not human nature for a PP to watch stalls performed without a comment.
 
Kritchlow said:
I doubt that. It's simply not human nature for a PP to watch stalls performed without a comment.
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Generally I would agree, but the guy just wants to save some money on the plane rental to keep proficient himself. Plus he's my boss so I can just tell him to shut up :)
 
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korben88 said:
Generally I would agree, but the guy just wants to save some money on the plane rental to keep proficient himself. Plus he's my boss so I can just tell him to shut up
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It's your decision. While it's certainly legal, IMO it may not be wise.
YMMV
 
Over the years I have learned vastly more from flying with others than I have from the 'certified' CFI.
Now, to be clear, much of what I learned from the others was what NOT to do.
So I disagree that having a 'student' fly with non CFI pilots is bad.
All experience is valuable and a learning situation.
If a CFI tells his student he should fly with other pilots I tend to suspect insecurity over avoidance of learning bad habits (so called).
 
Just a side note... Who is in the left seat? If its you, then I think the PP needs to be checked and signed off in the right seat... If you are in the right seat, I don't see how you can "practice" with total benefit since things can get a little squirley from the other seat, if you aren't used to it. Also, how experienced is this PP? Do you trust he is good enough to get you out of any mess you might get into? Just spit balling here...
 
FlySince9 said:
Just a side note... Who is in the left seat? If its you, then I think the PP needs to be checked and signed off in the right seat... If you are in the right seat, I don't see how you can "practice" with total benefit since things can get a little squirley from the other seat, if you aren't used to it. Also, how experienced is this PP? Do you trust he is good enough to get you out of any mess you might get into? Just spit balling here...
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You don't need any sign off to sit in the right seat.
 
It's legal ,as long as you don't log it,I would want to know how good of a pilot I was flying with,so as not to pick up bad habits.
 
Lindberg said:
Minor correction, you can't log it because you're not rated in the airplane.
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Minor expansion, you can't log it because you're not rated in the airplane, you're not alone in the airplane, and you''r not receiving instruction from an authorized instructor, the only three conditions in which student pilot may log anything.

back to the main question...
No there's no FAA rule against it. If the aircraft is a rental or club airplane, there may (or may not) be FBO or club rules that apply, such as rules prohibiting the other pilot from acting as PIC fro the right seat without a specific checkout. If the airplane is privately owned, there may (or may not) be insurance issues.

Pre-solo, I'm not quite as concerned as @Kritchlow but he makes a good point about bad habits forming during the course of pre-solo primary instruction. There is also the matter of inconsistent instruction and feedback, which can actually delay the learning process.
 
Every rental outfit I've used has prohibited right seat PICs who weren't at least checked out. Most limit it to CFIs.

This is a presolo student. Is the private pilot capable of recovering from landing mistakes? There is a lot that can go wrong here, and it seems rather unwise.
 
Done often with my post-solo student pilot son in the left and me in the right. I don't instruct how to fly the plane, but do use the opportunities to work with him on navigation, comm, wx, situational awareness, decision making, etc.

I have a minority opinion on logging that I will keep to myself.
 
Kritchlow said:
True to your first point, but I'm not in agreement with your second. A PP trying to teach may not be a good thing. Bad habits can be hard to break. Leave the teaching to the CFI's. Obviously I'm assuming the PP is butting in giving advice/pointers.
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I learn something new quite frequently when I fly with other private pilots.

And, I suspect I teach some things to other private pilots when we fly together.
 
Not all CFIs are equal. Not all non-CFIs are equal. So in a vacuum, I wouldn't want to guess at who might be better at teaching or who might have the better technique. Mark has a point about consistency, but inconsistency can be introduced by having multiple CFIs.
 
FlySince9 said:
Just a side note... Who is in the left seat? If its you, then I think the PP needs to be checked and signed off in the right seat... If you are in the right seat, I don't see how you can "practice" with total benefit since things can get a little squirley from the other seat, if you aren't used to it. Also, how experienced is this PP? Do you trust he is good enough to get you out of any mess you might get into? Just spit balling here...
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The plane is his or more precisely it belongs to his dad that owns the business I work for. He has plenty of time in it, both right and left seat. However he doesn't fly as much as he used to. He said he needs to get up more and offered to take me along for some practice.
 
midlifeflyer said:
You might. I have flown with more than one club or FBO that prohibited right seat ops without an endorsement (see #5 in my signature block)
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Of course. I took it as there's no FAA rule regarding a sign off. My school won't let any renter sit in the right seat unless it's our instructor or that person is going for their CFI rating.
 
korben88 said:
The plane is his or more precisely it belongs to his dad that owns the business I work for. He has plenty of time in it, both right and left seat. However he doesn't fly as much as he used to. He said he needs to get up more and offered to take me along for some practice.
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That's nice of him, but if you're a presolo student, you would do better to fly with someone experienced and trained to identify and correct student mistakes.

The risk is that you encounter something you haven't seen before, and the other guy recognizes it late or not at all.

It's a different equation post solo, and especially post checkride.
 
I say go for it. I flew 3 differnt 172,s in the last 2 days and flew them all from the right seat even when I was by myself. I just prefer to fly from that side.
 
Kritchlow said:
A PP trying to teach may not be a good thing. Bad habits can be hard to break. Leave the teaching to the CFI's
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Heck, I still have bad habits FROM my CFI that I am trying to break.

The OP did not say the pilot offered to train him, only take him up for some additional time and practice. Flying alongside any other pilot can be a valuable learning tool...the more experience the better! I do not believe a student pilot should live in a vacuum.
 
Does anyone truly believe a PP will sit idly by?? We all know once a student becomes a PP they say it's a license to learn, but in their own mind they are instantly experts. It's human nature.
No, it's not the death spiral should a student do maneuvers with a pp, but it could get ugly. A low time pp trying to save a landing out of instinct??? Ya, I'm not a fan. Especially someone mentioned consistency. That is huge in the students learning. Let his CFI do the training.
Ymmv
 
Dude, you get a chance to fly, fly. I bet you're smart enough to ignore bad advice, and/or run it by your CFI before adding it to your store of knowledge.

It's the nature of humans to assume everyone else can be influenced and mis-directed, and that critcal analysis is unique unto themselves.

Go fly. . .
 
Yeah what Sundancer ^ said. CFI here, go fly and enjoy. You'll learn something and maybe a lesson if it's bad! :D
 
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