Student Landing Issue

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fire67bird

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fire67bird
I'm a student pilot at 10 hours total and have been working on pattern/landings the last 3.5 hours. It seems like the first couple of landings each lesson I am focused and they are very close to being good. After that, it seems like I get overwhelmed and everything gets progressively worse. My CFI is coaching me during flight but it's hard for me to comprehend while focusing on everything else. To add to the situation, the airport I train out of is a 2500' grass strip with 50' obstacles all around.

My CFI is giving me enough rope to hang myself and somehow I always seem to control the aircraft well enough to get by but I know I am making mistakes that I feel are on the edge of disaster.

Next lesson he said we are going to a towered airport to work on touch and gos. I feel confident that this is a good strategy but right now my confidence is fairly low about my abilities.

Basically I am looking for advice from other people who may have been in my situation before. Your insight will be really helpful right now.
 
just keep working at it. this stuff takes a while.
 
Been there, done that. I dug holes with the nose gear at Flagler and Daytona daily for probably two weeks until I started to get it. Started.. it’s a process. Keep it up.
 
Define good.

Seems to be stressed by bugsmasher instructors that it has to be a full stall 1 inch above the tarmac elevator in your lap every time when that is actually a negative learning transfer if you ever drive jets for a living.

Round out/level off, increase pitch at a rate relative to the rate you are descending, maintain center line with aileron, maintain longitudinal direction with rudder, main wheels touch first and nose wheel after in the touch down zone - that's a good landing, nothing at all wrong with a firm landing, especially with a cross wind.
 
I learned at a 9k feet runway with no obstructions anywhere and it took me forever to learn how to land decent enough not to give my CFI a heart attack. You are doing great, just keep at it
 
jaybee said:
Define good.

Seems to be stressed by bugsmasher instructors that it has to be a full stall 1 inch above the tarmac elevator in your lap every time when that is actually a negative learning transfer if you ever drive jets for a living.

Round out/level off, increase pitch at a rate relative to the rate you are descending, maintain center line with aileron, maintain longitudinal direction with rudder, main wheels touch first and nose wheel after in the touch down zone - that's a good landing, nothing at all wrong with a firm landing, especially with a cross wind.
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I couldn’t agree with this more.
 
jaybee said:
Define good.

Seems to be stressed by bugsmasher instructors that it has to be a full stall 1 inch above the tarmac elevator in your lap every time when that is actually a negative learning transfer if you ever drive jets for a living.

Round out/level off, increase pitch at a rate relative to the rate you are descending, maintain center line with aileron, maintain longitudinal direction with rudder, main wheels touch first and nose wheel after in the touch down zone - that's a good landing, nothing at all wrong with a firm landing, especially with a cross wind.
Click to expand...

Your advice makes a lot of sense. Thank You.
 
I have 15 hours of pattern work and landings. If I do my average of 12 landing per hour I have 'tried' to land 180 times.

It literally just started getting 'acceptable' this week. Now we just need to see if I am consistent next week. Here is what helped me:

Right rudder
USE YOUR RUDDER!
Be FIRM on your pedals
It is not a car, pedals require use of TWO feet
Find an aim point and fly the plane right into that aim point until to round out
Look at the end of the runway and keep looking. Do not look at the nose of the airplane
If you are struggling to get within speed or altitude on base or final your landing is going to suck. A good landing starts at your downwind.
Pitch for airspeed, power for altitude
More right ridder
 
Did not read all the responses, but I (when I was instructing) had a different approach to landings.

Once they mastered the 4 fundamentals I let them fly the pattern until base leg. Then I took over. At first no explanation what I was doing.
Why? Because I didn’t want them worrying about landings. I needed them concentrating on their next task, which may have been MCA and stalls.
Gradually I would incorporate in those aspects to the landing. First with me demonstrating and talking them through it. Around the fourth lesson they would attempt their first landing. It progressed from there.
My technique was let them learn what the lesson calls for. Let the try landing on day one all they care about is the landing. I had better results with my method, although many instructors questioned me not even giving verbal I the first couple of landings. I just wanted them to stay focused at the task in hand.

This is a five beer post so there may be some typos and snafus.
 
Learn to land there and you'll be good anywhere. You'll be shocked at how much extra room that towered tarmac will give you. Although, ironically, the first few there will be ugly just because of the different sight picture - you'll try to land WAY too early, probably. No worries, that's why your CFI is there. It'll all click when it's time. Keep at it. 10 hours (3.5 of landings) is still relatively NOTHING. Don't stress it. It feels new because it IS new.
 
I suggest that when you have a "bad one," depart the pattern, go out to the practice area (usually a straight and level activity) get the council of your CFI, do a couple steeps or stalls, and head back in to do some more tries.

When I had three "good ones" and then a botched fourth, fifth, etc the fowled up ones got progressively worse until I cleared my head with a longer chat than the pattern allows for.
 
Ravioli said:
When I had three "good ones" and then a botched fourth, fifth, etc the fowled up ones got progressively worse until I cleared my head with a longer chat than the pattern allows for.
Click to expand...

When I had three good ones I would stop, even if it was a bit early. Try to end on a good landing when you can. Let a good one be the one that replays in your memory over and over until it's burned in. Do a lot of chair flying.
 
...
fire67bird said:
Your advice makes a lot of sense. Thank You.
Click to expand...

Well I hope it helps and for what is worth these principles have earned me everything from Commercial Helicopter/Instrument and Private Airplane up to ATP CL65 type with recent Captain upgrade. Bottom line end of the day, after the all the knowledge is learned and limitations memorized, whether you are banging around in your bugsmasher or a 787 its your job to put that sucker down SAFELY in the touch down zone on centerline. Note I said SAFELY and not perfect greaser. I watch guys everyday on the line float down out of the touchdown zone trying to grease it. Its not a problem till it is a problem then what. You lose your license? You have blood on your hands? etc etc all because you are trying to grease it? eff that. good luck. you can do it. we are all counting on you.
 
Oh, my other thing. I always did Stop-n-goes or land and taxi back. I don't like TNG. My thing there is that TNG didn't ever get me slow enough to need to worry about slowing to a stop OR "enough" right rudder on the take off. And with land and taxi back you can sit and talk about stuffs with the CFI.
 
Ravioli said:
Oh, my other thing. I always did Stop-n-goes or land and taxi back. I don't like TNG. My thing there is that TNG didn't ever get me slow enough to need to worry about slowing to a stop OR "enough" right rudder on the take off. And with land and taxi back you can sit and talk about stuffs with the CFI.
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Bingo. When I had a student at this stage of training we did not do T&Gs...after each landing I would take the controls and do the taxiing back to the departure point. During this time, without any responsibilities, the student could pay attention to my comments and suggestions about the approach and landing we had just completed and assimilate that information. Back at the hold line I returned control to the student.

To the OP: Airspeed control is your first priority, and the rule is that good landings are slow landings. You are an energy manager, and as you get near the landing surface you have both potential energy (the energy of position, decreasing as you descend), and kinetic energy (the energy of motion). Your goal is to touch down with the minimum amount of total energy necessary to keep the airplane controllable. Kinetic energy varies as the square of the airspeed, so any increase in airspeed, however slight, increases the amount of total energy you must get rid of; a decrease in airspeed reduces kinetic energy exponentially. Potential energy goes away as soon as you touch down, and you must reduce kinetic energy after touchdown by rolling friction, brake application, etc. The less kinetic energy the less necessity for braking. Too much and the airplane tries to fly again...not a good thing.

Good landings are slow landings. Follow POH recommendations and not a knot more (exceptions for gusts or crosswinds...but they will come later, when you are more comfortable with simple landings).

Bob
 
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Airspeed, airspeed, airspeed. I think one thing is very important but I'm only going to hint at it. Airspeed, airspeed, airspeed...

It's funny how your answer or thoughts on this change as you gain experience. Here's what I'll tell you: if you are not aware of how that airplane feels on the edge of a stall and how it behaves when it does stall, stop right there. Go back up with your instructor and do stalls. If you're afraid of them, get over it and do stalls. You need to know what the plane feels like when it gets close to a stall. That's the only way you'll feel confident low and "slow" approaching to land.
 
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Landings only really 'clicked' for me about halfway through my commercial, and I trained out of a 5000' hard surfaced runway. I was a rather slow learner in that particular of flight; many people will pick it up sooner (yourself included, most likely). Sounds like you're doing just fine, especially when considering the conditions you're training under IMHO.
 
Here my two cents.

Yeah, don't "round out" or "flare".

Come in on final with your sight picture locked, use a area just before where you want to touch down, it shouldn't move in your windshield, if it gets low you're too high and vise versa, --> don't be afraid to slip <--

Once you're a few feet over that point, runway assured, pull the power, look all the way down the runway to the point that moves the least, think of those paintings of a road with power lines at both ends, how they disappear into one infinity point, look at that.

Now with the power out, try to fly down the runway to that infinity point holding the plane 6" off the deck, keep holding her off, once the mains touch, keep flying the plane to that point till she's slowed to a speed of a brisk jog, don't just let go of the back force and prang that flimsey nose gear down.

Once you get low over the runway, remeber it's alerons to keep the plane in the middle of the runway, rudder to keep it pointing down the runway.

Lastly, imagine the yoke has a ratchet on it,once you pull back when you're down low you can't put the stick forward again, if it starts to sink just burp in a little power.


A good landing will have the stall horn going off just after you transition from your landing target to flying to the infinity point.



These things should NOT be a laundry list of steps, it's one fluidic thing, don't strap into the plane, strap the plane onto you.


And remember
--> don't be afraid to slip <--
 
bobmrg said:
When I had a student at this stage of training we did not do T&Gs...after each landing I would take the controls and do the taxiing back to the departure point. During this time, without any responsibilities, the student could pay attention to my comments and suggestions about the approach and landing we had just completed and assimilate that information. Back at the hold line I returned control to the student.
Click to expand...
This is exactly what my CFI did with me. Everything about flying seemed to be so overwhelming that I couldn't think about landing until much much later.

OP, don't get discouraged. We all go through the learning process. For some of us it's easier, for others (me) it's harder. I had about 20 landings or so under my belt when I reached the point of wanting to quit because of my poor landings. I asked a pilot friend to fly with me before I finally give up and miracle happened. His different approach to teaching just made something click for me and I realized that I too, can learn this stuff. Gradually I got better and better at it to the point when another CFI called my short filed landing 'perfect carrier landing'. It will come to you, don't worry! But I do agree with the above (considering my experience) that doing T&Gs early during training is not beneficial. Take the time during the taxi back to let the information sink in.
 
Once you level out just above the rwy, pull power and try not to land. Hold off is a much better word than flair
 
My instructor and I did a round-robin of a dozen airports in one flight, just to make sure that I wasn't good at landing at just the home airport.
 
mryan75 said:
Airspeed, airspeed, airspeed....
Click to expand...

^^^ This! I was very inconsistent on my landings, sometimes doing a good one sometimes bouncing and maybe landing flat. He then told me about my management of airspeed was not good and I was always coming in too fast. Once I went down to the speeds on POH (which I thought were too slow), suddenly my landings became a lot better, easier to land on a spot and no bouncing. :)

Stable approaches at the proper speeds are key. I now call out target speeds during downwind, base, final and short final every time.
 
I think the vast majority of us have been in your situation before. You are more than likely being too hard on yourself. And I didn’t learn on the strip you are. My home base airport had 10,000 foot runways and the training airport for practice had 5,000 feet.

Just enjoy the ride. And remember, a go around is always an option, until it isn’t.
 
10 hours, don't worry yet. Focus on making the same approach every time (airspeed and altitudes), once you get that down you will have the flare figured out.. If you counted your total landings, you would probably realize that you just haven't done that many landings yet. Remember every day's conditions are a little different, make them as similar as you possibly can.
 
Kritchlow said:
Did not read all the responses, but I (when I was instructing) had a different approach to landings.

Once they mastered the 4 fundamentals I let them fly the pattern until base leg. Then I took over. At first no explanation what I was doing.
Why? Because I didn’t want them worrying about landings. I needed them concentrating on their next task, which may have been MCA and stalls.
Gradually I would incorporate in those aspects to the landing. First with me demonstrating and talking them through it. Around the fourth lesson they would attempt their first landing. It progressed from there.
My technique was let them learn what the lesson calls for. Let the try landing on day one all they care about is the landing. I had better results with my method, although many instructors questioned me not even giving verbal I the first couple of landings. I just wanted them to stay focused at the task in hand.

This is a five beer post so there may be some typos and snafus.
Click to expand...

I like it a lot. This approach. In my experience (and I only have that to go on) and my preference, I would also LOVE IT if an instructor did this AND while landing pointed out their own thought process and evaluation...
"I'm watching my airspeed, see I am just a little high so I give a little less throttle..." etc. etc.

To me THAT is the key. So far I'm still being coached on landings to what to do, and when. When I get home, I think "man, I should have been watching " some thing or another. Well, maybe next time. But I've never had a real discussion with my CFI about the steps, the focus...it's presented as an "everything at once" thing. When it's over, we are on the ground and I'm not 100% sure how I got there.

It's when I contemplate the CFI not saying anything, where are the holes in my understanding, and I see there are a number between when we head back to the airport, and approach, heights, what alt at how close, etc. It's not being discussed. Maybe that is the way.

On the first few flights, I think I was so worn out (and a little airsick on some of the earlier ones, until I learned to "eat normal" before a flight and that starving wasn't a good choice) by the time we were coming in for landing I wasn't sharp and aware. Like the OP mentions, after several landing rounds.
 
Like the others said, you have 10 hours. Sounds to me like what you are experiencing is very normal. Stick with it, things will click and that feeling of being overloaded and behind the airplane will go away.
 
Full stop. taxi back is your friend. A leisurely taxi back and hold gives you plenty of time to parse what happened in the landing.
 
SethV said:
Like the others said, you have 10 hours. Sounds to me like what you are experiencing is very normal. Stick with it, things will click and that feeling of being overloaded and behind the airplane will go away.
Click to expand...
I was happy at 10 hours not to have to bring a barf bag for “just in case”!!!
 
I can't add a thing except what it took for "me" to solo...I learned to look all the way down the runway and not fixate on the cowling. Landings have never been a issue since that point...

Keep at it.
 
fire67bird said:
It seems like the first couple of landings each lesson I am focused and they are very close to being good. After that, it seems like I get overwhelmed and everything gets progressively worse.
Click to expand...

Your brain is just getting saturated as the lesson goes on, making it harder to relax and multitask. It gets easier. Don't worry about it at this point.
 
It took me a good long while to learn to land... and I'm still working at it!

One suggestion - don't over-control on short final, especially with the ailerons. In slow flight (which is short final) there's a small lag between turning the yoke and when the plane responds. Plus there will be accentuated adverse yaw, so any major aileron input will result in the nose see-sawing in the opposite direction. Then you'll start to wallow, and things go bad to worse. Give slower, deliberate aileron inputs and wait for the plane to respond. Only then correct as needed.

Two other suggestions... give a bit of nose-up trim on final approach. Even if you don't need it at approach speed, it will help when you slow down in the flare (or level off) before touchdown. Also don't yank the power back all at once when the runway is made. Take it to idle over a couple of seconds... that way the nose won't suddenly drop, and you'll have better control keeping the proper pitch prior to the flare.
 
jaybee said:
...


Well I hope it helps and for what is worth these principles have earned me everything from Commercial Helicopter/Instrument and Private Airplane up to ATP CL65 type with recent Captain upgrade. Bottom line end of the day, after the all the knowledge is learned and limitations memorized, whether you are banging around in your bugsmasher or a 787 its your job to put that sucker down SAFELY in the touch down zone on centerline. Note I said SAFELY and not perfect greaser. I watch guys everyday on the line float down out of the touchdown zone trying to grease it. Its not a problem till it is a problem then what. You lose your license? You have blood on your hands? etc etc all because you are trying to grease it? eff that. good luck. you can do it. we are all counting on you.
Click to expand...

That's the FIRST time I've ever read "...its your job to put that sucker down SAFELY in the touch down zone on centerline. Note I said SAFELY and not perfect greaser..." and I wish my CFI had had that mindset. It would have taken a lot of pressure off but with passengers, you can navigate, communicate and keep a pyramid of wine glasses balanced in the back seat but all they'll judge you on is your landing.

To the OP - We've ALL been there, you'll get it and you'll reach a point when you start telling your CFI what you did wrong. Then after a while longer with more landings, you'll start looking forward to landings.
 
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Lots of very good wisdom that everyone has shared here. I'm flying later today and this advice gives me a lot of confidence that good progress will be made. Thanks everyone.
 
Watch Rod Machado teach landings here:
and here:
 
fire67bird said:
I'm a student pilot at 10 hours total and have been working on pattern/landings the last 3.5 hours. It seems like the first couple of landings each lesson I am focused and they are very close to being good. After that, it seems like I get overwhelmed and everything gets progressively worse. My CFI is coaching me during flight but it's hard for me to comprehend while focusing on everything else. To add to the situation, the airport I train out of is a 2500' grass strip with 50' obstacles all around.

My CFI is giving me enough rope to hang myself and somehow I always seem to control the aircraft well enough to get by but I know I am making mistakes that I feel are on the edge of disaster.

Next lesson he said we are going to a towered airport to work on touch and gos. I feel confident that this is a good strategy but right now my confidence is fairly low about my abilities.

Basically I am looking for advice from other people who may have been in my situation before. Your insight will be really helpful right now.
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I have a bad tendency to not scroll up (or in Outlook at work - scroll down ) to read prior replies.
When I first started flying - it took 18 months at the 141 school just for me to get to 25 hours and I hadn't solo'd . I went to the FBO across the ramp and flew there instead. My landings were terrible, akin to dropping a bouncy ball onto the floor. The CFI after 4 landings finally told me on landing # 5 as I approached ground effect
"look at the end of the runway now and do nothing else but try and keep centered, just let the plane bring itself down"

I solo'd 2 flights later and got my private a month and half after that.

As you approach the runway, transitions eyes down the runway.
 
You'll get it. The airplane will land when it wants to. Forcing it down too soon is a common error.
 
If you are not doing this already...TRIM the plane on final approach to the appropriate approach speed to take the pressure off the yoke. That way, you are not fighting the yoke so hard during the approach, flare and final nose-high gradual settle onto the runway. Don't forget to use your feet to point the plane in the right direction. Some pilots seem to forget you have a third control, and using it can really smooth out the small corrections necessary to keep the plane in the middle of the runway. Ailerons are really slow at re-pointing the airplane especially low and slow. It is all too easy to get into a "sawing" mode that makes things way more difficult than needed.

The main secret to making safe landings is to use the recommended approach speed (no more!), reduce power when the runway is made, then don't drive the plane into the runway, holding it just off the runway surface with the elevator (and nose-high) until it runs out of lift and settles in. If you level off too high (takes practice to learn the right height and sight lines) and get too slow, you may have to add a little burst of power to cushion the sink until you are are at the right height to start the slow settle and pull on the yoke. It's a kind of game of leveling, settling, and slowing (by raising the nose) above the runway so that you don't run out of speed and lift until you are only a couple feet above the runway. If you do it right, you level, settle, raise the nose a bit, level, settle, raise the nose some more, level, settle, etc. and you plop down (hopefully not too hard) when you are just above stall speed. It doesn't have to be a full-stall landing. It just has be well nose-high and near the minimum flyable speed when the mains touch. The nose will come down when it's ready.

This reads much, much, more difficult than it is to actually perform. Once you figure out the right sight lines, it will become natural.
 
chemgeek said:
If you are not doing this already...TRIM the plane on final approach to the appropriate approach speed to take the pressure off the yoke. That way, you are not fighting the yoke so hard during the approach, flare and final nose-high gradual settle onto the runway. Don't forget to use your feet to point the plane in the right direction. Some pilots seem to forget you have a third control, and using it can really smooth out the small corrections necessary to keep the plane in the middle of the runway. Ailerons are really slow at re-pointing the airplane especially low and slow. It is all too easy to get into a "sawing" mode that makes things way more difficult than needed.

The main secret to making safe landings is to use the recommended approach speed (no more!), reduce power when the runway is made, then don't drive the plane into the runway, holding it just off the runway surface with the elevator (and nose-high) until it runs out of lift and settles in. If you level off too high (takes practice to learn the right height and sight lines) and get too slow, you may have to add a little burst of power to cushion the sink until you are are at the right height to start the slow settle and pull on the yoke. It's a kind of game of leveling, settling, and slowing (by raising the nose) above the runway so that you don't run out of speed and lift until you are only a couple feet above the runway. If you do it right, you level, settle, raise the nose a bit, level, settle, raise the nose some more, level, settle, etc. and you plop down (hopefully not too hard) when you are just above stall speed. It doesn't have to be a full-stall landing. It just has be well nose-high and near the minimum flyable speed when the mains touch. The nose will come down when it's ready.

This reads much, much, more difficult than it is to actually perform. Once you figure out the right sight lines, it will become natural.
Click to expand...

As another student, I like this description and many of the others as well.

Just wondering though, there are exceptions to approach speed? If crosswind, I've heard one wants to have a little extra airspeed to be able to counter? Also when doing a slip final?

Just trying to get it straight when conditions are a little more challenging.
 
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