Student issues advice

Tristar

Tristar

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Tristar
Each student is different. That is the number one thing I've learned. One may learn stalls quicker than others and some have difficulty studying for written exams but I've never had one procrastinate with a medical.

I have an interesting student I was curious about what you think his thought process is. About the time we started doing stalls, I stressed that he should go ahead and get his medical. A few weeks later he had it. That's fine. Then he left half of it hanging out of his wallet. Of course, when I asked to look at it, it was unreadable and also unsignable. Thus begins the issue. I posted about this late November. As you can see, its January. I finally got a hold of the right person about the medical issue. She told me he would need a replacement (I knew that already) but from what she could see on their records, they sent him paperwork requesting some missing medical information that they missed on his original issuance. The lady was very nice and told me that I couldn't do anything else for him and that he'd have to solve the issue since I was not related to him and he was over age. This was very early December. Since then, I have asked him each time we meet up about if he'd received any paperwork from the FAA or called them. Each time its a "no" or "I tried and no one answered" or "I didn't have time to." Each time, he gets a talk of why he wont get to solo and why ultimately he wont become a pilot if he can't learn to take some responsibility. I'm getting tired of babying him. Am I doing something wrong as an instructor?

Another interesting thing happened with the same person. We went ahead and set up a date to take his written exam. While I was gone on vacation for a week, I asked him to take three practice exams. He's had trouble with ground in the past so I was expecting some low scores. He showed me two 98% and a 96%. I asked him if he'd had any help, looked at a book for reference, or had done any practice tests in the past. He said no. Should I be skeptical?
 
Tristar said:
Another interesting thing happened with the same person. We went ahead and set up a date to take his written exam. While I was gone on vacation for a week, I asked him to take three practice exams. He's had trouble with ground in the past so I was expecting some low scores. He showed me two 98% and a 96%. I asked him if he'd had any help, looked at a book for reference, or had done any practice tests in the past. He said no. Should I be skeptical?
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Hmm, now I've been around the block more htan most students so I typically do pretty good on Private writtens now, although my instrument practice writtens I tend to do poorly on (im still a ways away from my IR written, dont worry) which my CFII curses out the questions saying how useless they are making me feel a bit better about the low score. Back to the point, yeah I'd be a bit skeptical depending on how far into his training he is.
 
I have ran into a student or two that were like that, albiet not about the medical as you described.

I would be telling the student something like you are getting within a few hours of being able to solo. If we don't have the medical done soon then the lessons you are taking will need to repeated wasting your time and money. I am here to teach you to fly not just take your money so unless there is a reason we should continue the I am not going to schedule any more lessons with you until the medical is completed.

Perhaps that will prompt him into getting it done of telling you what is going on.

I initially tell my potential students that pilots are the kind of people that get things done and we don't want pilots that need baby sat. They are responsible for insuring that lessons are scheduled and that they are progressing. If the they don't schedule another lesson I won't be calling them to do so.

Brian
 
I have had to let a couple students "evaporate" over responsibility issues like that.
Usually it was a motivation issue (i.e mom or dad wanting jr to get his ticket but jr wasn't that into it).
I wouldn't spoon feed him anything, sit him down and see what his motivation really is. Your time is important and shouldn't be wasted. The student has to pull some serious weight for this to work, if the motivation is there... rarely are there any issues.
 
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The first thing you have to do is figure out the game he's playing, then you have to figure out how to beat him at it.

Just tell him his next lesson won't be in the plane, it will be a two-part ground lesson. Part one will be on the phone to the Med division with you there facilitating the call. Part two will be a mini-written, with a couple of questions from each section. If he balks or fails, cut the cord. You didn't sign up to raise him, your job is to teach him to fly. If he doesn't want to learn from you or man up to his part of the deal, there's nothing to lose and he might actually snap out of it.


Tristar said:
Each student is different. I asked him if he'd had any help, looked at a book for reference, or had done any practice tests in the past. He said no. Should I be skeptical?
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I wouldn't baby someone through the process. If they don't have the motivation to take ownership of their medical and the required ground then they don't have the motivation to become a pilot.

I would simply tell them that their next lesson is pending them straightening their medical out. You're there to teach them how to fly - not to teach them how to be an adult. "No child left behind" has no place in aviation.
 
brcase said:
I have ran into a student or two that were like that, albiet not about the medical as you described.

I would be telling the student something like you are getting within a few hours of being able to solo. If we don't have the medical done soon then the lessons you are taking will need to repeated wasting your time and money. I am here to teach you to fly not just take your money so unless there is a reason we should continue the I am not going to schedule any more lessons with you until the medical is completed.

Perhaps that will prompt him into getting it done of telling you what is going on.

I initially tell my potential students that pilots are the kind of people that get things done and we don't want pilots that need baby sat. They are responsible for insuring that lessons are scheduled and that they are progressing. If the they don't schedule another lesson I won't be calling them to do so.

Brian
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I actually have done that step already. I have told him that if he doesn't get this straightened out, we will have to decrease his lessons. He is pretty much past his solo except for some ground work I want to confirm he understands. Of course, I can't officially solo him. The problem is actually that he's 21 years old and his mom is paying for flying lessons. Heck I'd let someone else pay for mine too but the problem is the encouragement isn't there. I've sadly told him that "if you don't do something about this, your flying is going to get expensive and your parents aren't going to like this. I'd rather not have to explain to your mom why flying got more expensive than it's supposed to." He hears me, but he doesn't. I think I'll try the sitting down with him and calling the medical office one more time. After that, I'll have to tell him that we aren't going to schedule another lesson until he gets a resolution. I hate it, but I'm not his mother.

I do encourage my students to set up their own lessons but to be honest, I prefer to talk to them so that they stay on task at the rate they need and in the correct airplane. Some students are busy with work and scheduling lessons gets put on the side, this way I know it gets done..but if they talk to me, it's icing on the cake. To top it off...if they don't fly...my paycheck is small.
 
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I'm confused about one thing:

What if he knows he's a perpetual student, because of a medical issue (hence, the refusal to answer the questions the FAA is asking), and he's ok with that, but embarrassed to admit it.

There could be worse things than letting him fly with you for a while longer, until he either grows tired of flying or admits that he'll never get his PPL. Either way, you benefit from it.

I don't mean to scam him, but perhaps, if you push it, you'll risk what could be a very good thing for both of you: he gets to fly without the embarrassment of telling you he's got some medical issues, and you get a steady paycheck acting as an instructor for a student that will never progress.
 
I don't think that's what it is nick. From what the lady could tell me, it sounded like an old issue that could be resolved. Now obviously I could be wrong because the privacy of information thing. His mom told me he's a "slow learner" but I've been working with him for months. He's not stupid, I think he's just lazy and doesn't think about consequences. Even when I ask him questions during ground training, he's quick to say, "I dont know" or weasel his way through the answer. Now we've all done that in training but usually we go home and go, "hmm, I didn't know that, maybe I should study it." I asked him the other day what 4 things do you have to have in an airplane to make it airworthy. He couldn't tell me without me hinting. That worries me, that's something I teach day one. I'm at a loss of why this guy wants to be a pilot.
 
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Tristar said:
I'm at a loss of why this guy wants to be a pilot.
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I am too. Is he doing it for his parents? I found that becoming a pilot is difficult enough that the student's motivation needs to come from within, not from someone else; their parents, their spouse, their friend, etc. He's 21, not a kid, and you're not his mother.

wabower said:
Just tell him his next lesson won't be in the plane, it will be a two-part ground lesson. Part one will be on the phone to the Med division with you there facilitating the call. Part two will be a mini-written, with a couple of questions from each section. If he balks or fails, cut the cord. You didn't sign up to raise him, your job is to teach him to fly. If he doesn't want to learn from you or man up to his part of the deal, there's nothing to lose and he might actually snap out of it.
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I think this is some pretty good advice.
 
I'd follow Wayne's advice, or else just let him evaporate. My view is that if he doesn't have the time to do what he needs to in order to learn, then I don't have the time for him. If he has problems now, he'll have more problems later, and your name will be on the hook for it.
 
Hmmmm....

You've received some good advice here so far.

I can only add that flight training is a partnership, with the gradual adoption by the student of more and more responsibility.

Folks that have "responsibility issues" are not ideal candidates for the tremendous freedom granted to a Private Pilot.
 
Tristar said:
I don't think that's what it is nick. From what the lady could tell me, it sounded like an old issue that could be resolved. Now obviously I could be wrong because the privacy of information thing. His mom told me he's a "slow learner" but I've been working with him for months. He's not stupid, I think he's just lazy and doesn't think about consequences. Even when I ask him questions during ground training, he's quick to say, "I dont know" or weasel his way through the answer. Now we've all done that in training but usually we go home and go, "hmm, I didn't know that, maybe I should study it." I asked him the other day what 4 things do you have to have in an airplane to make it airworthy. He couldn't tell me without me hinting. That worries me, that's something I teach day one. I'm at a loss of why this guy wants to be a pilot.
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This kid does not appear to be pilot material. I would tell him and his mom that from an aviation perspective he is a threat to himself and others. It is actually a good thing that he applied for a medical which will probably be denied making him ineligible for any type of flying. It's probably not worth it for you as an instructor if you factor in the liability. Mom (and her attorney) will want to know why you signed him off for a cross country after he augers it in a couple of hundred miles from his asssigned destination.
 
Mom is paying for the lessons. Who will pay post PP? I see a potential incentive for foot dragging.
 
Tristar said:
I think he's just lazy and doesn't think about consequences.
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I think that the effort you have put forth so far has been commendable. I think that at this stage I would do what Wayne suggested. However the quote above makes me think that he really isn't cut out to be a pilot and isn't someone that I want to share airspace with...
 
Sounds like several kids I know in their 20's these days including a couple of nephews. No ambition. never really had to work for something they wanted or to survive, parents always there - cars, school, travel. I not a parent or an instuctor so no real experience but it appears my sisters should cuts all the strings.
 
As regards the medical issue, it sounds like either he's in denial over the medical issues, or he's got some fears about soloing and is using that medical situation as a mental flight defense mechanism. Either way, you're going to need to delve more deeply and carefully into what's going on in his head.

On the written test side, you've got three choices I see:
  1. Make him take another practice test under test center conditions with you monitoring to ensure no cheating.
  2. Blend some written test material into some pre-/post-flight briefings or other ground training sessions and see if he knows his stuff or not.
  3. Sign him off and see what happens.
Choice #1 has some risk of giving the impression you don't trust him, and trust in both directions is important in a teacher-trainee relationship. Choice #2 won't allow you to cover a very broad range of material in a time-efficient manner, and doesn't duplicate the actual test conditions. Choice #3 has some risk for you, but since the FSDO's don't usually track written test results versus who signed them off, the risk is minimal.
 
May I respectfully request that some of you guys review the AOPA Pilot article and data on student retention. I think it's this month's issue. I can see from some of the responses....


Please review the article. Thanks


a humble student
 
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En re attitude:

Welcome to the 'me' generation. We are all trying to understand how to work with them. There are lots of books on the subject ;)

You have a choice...learn how to relate to them as students, employees, customers...

...or go broke.
 
Jaybird180 said:
May I respectfully request that some of you guys review the AOPA data on student retention. I think it's this month's issue. I can see from some of the responses....


Please review the article. Thanks


a humble student
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Your suggestions?
 
So I did as wayne suggested. I met with my student this morning. The first step is I called the FAA in oklahoma city and they forwarded me to the medical office. I also called a local number one of my students gave me which is I believe our local branch. I called at both 9am and 10 am this morning when I had my student sitting in front of me. No one answered. I was afraid that might happen. He might be telling the truth but, as I told him, I have no proof as to how often he's tried. This is frustrating because I was hoping to solve it then and there. I left my name and number and haven't heard back yet.

As far as the odd written exam, I decided to open the test prep book and ask him random questions. I noticed if I just asked him the question, he didn't know the answers but if I gave him the a,b,c choices to pick from, he'd get it about 3/4ths the time, which is better than I expected. This is the good news, he might actually pass the written portion. I asked him if he was just memorizing the questions. He said yes. That explains it and...to a small sense...that's okay. What I don't get though is he's having trouble explaining the basics like when I asked him what is ground effect or what are the basic cloud requirements for class C (home airspace) and he couldn't tell me. I know we've had one on one ground training sessions on this and he also has an online ground course to complete and review. I understand that as a student it's hard to retain every piece of information that I'm exposed to daily but I feel like it was basic stuff. I explained to him today that he'll have to be able to understand and explain these things to not only me, but to an examiner and to save his butt in the real world. Maybe a bit harsh, but its the truth. I might have to look on the bright side and see that he's one heck of a memorizer when it comes to multiple choice but is lacking on his "understanding." It's silly it took me that long to figure that out, it's a typical student issue. I've just never seen such a huge difference between retention and understanding.

At the end of the lesson, I called back one more time to both numbers and couldn't get anyone on the phone. I told him that his best decision might to be just to dish out another $100 and get a new medical. Until he decides to do that, keep calling. In the mean time, I explained that my objective was not to waste his mom's money but if she felt like she was okay with him to continue to fly, I'm fine with it. So his objective was to take 3 practice exams each week until the 26th and call me and tell me the scores. Also to let me know his solution on the medical. Now it's his decision.
 
perhaps he's not interested in soloing or becoming a pilot but he likes flying.
 
He told me he wants to be an airline pilot. His mom has asked me about the aviation program at UNO. I couldn't tell her much about UNO, just about "life in an aviation college" in general, transferrable credits etc.
 
After going to bed last night I started thinking about this again. How many pilots have ever left their medical cert hanging out of their pocket in such a way that it can't be used for the sign-off? Can that be an accident, especially with all the other behavioral aberrations?

Tristar said:
Also to let me know his solution on the medical. Now it's his decision.
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Tristar said:
He told me he wants to be an airline pilot.
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I wonder if he's saying this because he really wants it or if he is just choosing something that sounds cool to get mom off his back about picking a profession.
 
I'm not sure. Supposedly he's wanted to do it all his life, reads the magazines, and has flight sim. I hear that from a wide range of people though.
 
wabower said:
After going to bed last night I started thinking about this again. How many pilots have ever left their medical cert hanging out of their pocket in such a way that it can't be used for the sign-off? Can that be an accident, especially with all the other behavioral aberrations?
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It's quite possible. I told him to keep it with him in his wallet or some other safe place such as tape it to his logbook. I guess I never said where in his wallet. To me if you're noticing that it's starting to get bent, move it.
 
jesse said:
I wouldn't baby someone through the process. If they don't have the motivation to take ownership of their medical and the required ground then they don't have the motivation to become a pilot.

I would simply tell them that their next lesson is pending them straightening their medical out. You're there to teach them how to fly - not to teach them how to be an adult. "No child left behind" has no place in aviation.
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Agreed. I had my medical and insurance before I picked an instructor. I wanted to make sure my knee wouldn't disqualify me. I've not been the best student time-wise until now, but I've tried to get the prelims out of the way every single time.
 
Tristar said:
I'm not sure. Supposedly he's wanted to do it all his life, reads the magazines, and has flight sim. I hear that from a wide range of people though.
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Often people's fantasies about something are a long way from reality. Maybe he thought it would be easier than it is. He probably has apprehensions about soloing. Most people do. Maybe that's why he's putting off getting the medical. Perhaps you could feel him out on this and if it is true reassure him that it is quite normal.
 
Everskyward said:
Well, I will admit that I did but I don't think very far ahead and didn't realize it until my CFI got out of the airplane. :crazy:
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All I'll type is that I did tell myself that it was entirely up to me on whether or not to rotate that first time.
 
I know two people who took flying lessons just for the experience. When it came to "solo" they passed on it and just did everything else. Never took the checkride or written test. He claims his companies life insurance wouldn't cover him to fly.
 
Tristar said:
I asked him if he was just memorizing the questions. He said yes. That explains it and...to a small sense...that's okay. What I don't get though is he's having trouble explaining the basics like when I asked him what is ground effect or what are the basic cloud requirements for class C (home airspace) and he couldn't tell me.
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What? You don't get that?
I might have to look on the bright side and see that he's one heck of a memorizer when it comes to multiple choice but is lacking on his "understanding."
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...oh, you do. :wink2:
 
Without any personal experience as an instructor, I can only apply common sense to this problem.


I can appreciate how badly you want to turn this kid around- it's an interesting challenge for an instructor. Must be very frustrating.

But on the other hand, he seems to have a problem that goes outside the parameters of the student/teacher relationship. You shouldn't be handling any of the stuff he needs to handle himself, nor should you feel obliged to constantly have to explain obvious realities to him when you should be teaching him about flying and the rules and regs.

You seem to have tried everything within reason... if he ever overcomes this self-defeating tendency, he needs to find it within himself to do so.

Personally, I wouldn't want to take any more of this guy's mother's money... he seems to be missing that intangible but very important "pilot mindset" thing, the thing that doesn't get checked off on any applications and isn't found in any test material. He's not ready for the responsibility, and possibly never will be. No instructor can instill that "right stuff" in a student; they can focus it, build it up, whatever... but a student has to have it to begin with. I see some aptitude based on your description, but not enough of the right attitude.

Even if he gets the medical cleared up, I'm not sure I'd continue with him.

Not an easy thing to tell a student, but not as hard as someday responding to "Hey, wasn't it you who signed him off?" after something really bad happens. :nonod:

I'm also not sure I'd want to continue with him as a "perpetual student", either, partly because I don't see this individual admitting that's what he wants. It's not like he's got a concrete obstacle to getting certified (medical, employer's insurance, etc)... it's all very vague, and IMHO a bit weird. :dunno:

Maybe he'll mature and sort of wake up on his own, but I don't think you will have failed as a CFI if you say "I can't do any more with you, and here's why."
 
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