Student Issue for CFIs

Tristar

Tristar

Pattern Altitude
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Tristar
I have an interesting student that I was wondering if the other CFIs could help me with. His primary problem; he does everything out of order. For example, when I was teaching him ground reference, he would start flying around some random point without being at any particular altitude or airspeed. At the same time he'd forget what maneuver we were doing. We would work on communications and instead of calling clearance, he'd try to call tower. We've began to touch on emergencies and instead of finding a field or pitching for best glide, he immediately tries to shut the plane down. By the time he figures out where he's going, he's lost 1,000 ft or more. It doesn't matter what we work on, he always does things out of order. The good thing is he understands he has this problem and he also understands why things go in a particular order. I have also tried flying the plane and have him talk me through how to do it, he still tells me things out of order. I purposely make the same mistakes so that he sees it and understands it but he still can't do things as they should be. It's even down to the smallest things like not reading his checklist in order...every time we fly. It sounds trivial and something students would eventually get over but its frustrating and he's not getting over it. I haven't been able to find a cure for this so the only thing I've been able to encourage him with is that we'll keep going and hopefully repetition will work.
 
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Um, I'd be tempted to have him find another instructor... if I was in your shoes. Probably one with a "hard" reputation, too. Sounds like trouble is in his future unless something changes.
Also, I'd be tempted to let him get more things out of order without helping him... in other words, LET ATC yell at him. Let him go as far as possible with his mistakes so that he can see the consequences to them.


Ryan
 
bbchien said:
Ruh Roh. Has a processing defect.....this is how they present....
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Yes, there is definitely "something" going on here.

Supposing that this "something" would disqual him if diagnosed and on the medical (or at least would require some work of your sort) what, if any, responsibility does the CFI have to inform someone?

Similarly, what if the CFI knew the student had some other disqual condition that somehow slipped through the medical or was not self-reported in the medical history?
 
:yeahthat: As a noob CFI it would be nice to get a better idea of the things that aren't "me" that are barriers to learning.
 
Maybe he's just not cut out for flying:dunno:.
Have you guys (CFIs) ever had a student that just didn't get it? Did you ever have to turn away a student? Just curious.
 
TMetzinger said:
:yeahthat: As a noob CFI it would be nice to get a better idea of the things that aren't "me" that are barriers to learning.
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Exactly, It goes back to one of my favorite lines, "To the man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail." The premise of the OP is that this is something he can fix as a CFI. I doubt that. Not with what I imagine is the toolbag of the CFI. From my personal philosophy, I would never rule out the miracles that can happen when two individuals set their mind to something but not so sure that is happening in this instance??
 
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Maybe the student is nervous and this prevents him from acting correctly? I've noticed people come undone when they get nervous.
 
redtail said:
Maybe he's just not cut out for flying:dunno:.
Have you guys (CFIs) ever had a student that just didn't get it? Did you ever have to turn away a student? Just curious.
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If they haven't, I hope it is only because they have not yet met someone they should. I like Alan Bramson's books on piloting and, in Be A Better Pilot, he describes some personality traits that he thinks should disqualify someone from being a pilot. Now, I am not going to say that he describes me perfectly, LOL, but I do have some work to do. And, believe me, I am working on it! But the OP's situation is a horse of a different feather.
 
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Yeah I'm just wondering if anyone has ever had a situation like that and how'd they go about telling the student. I consider myself a good pilot but far from great:lol:.

I know there's a lot of things that I absolutely suck at so I don't even try them.....singing, dancing, sports, cooking, etc:rofl:. Then again, I'm not likely die trying them....am I ?:lol:
 
One thought I had was to sit down with the student and go through the checklist and the procedures (maneuvers, etc) on the ground very thoroughly. Chair flying helps reinforce the right order and you can immediately stop and talk about skipping a step without the distraction of having to fly the airplane. Maybe it would also help to put numbers next to each item on the checklist and he/she can read them out loud with each item until things fall into place.

redtail said:
Maybe he's just not cut out for flying:dunno:.
Have you guys (CFIs) ever had a student that just didn't get it? Did you ever have to turn away a student? Just curious.
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Yes, not a fun situation. I had one student who never finished and I could tell from the first hour that he really didn't have the aptitude or motivation to learn to fly. It was very frustrating and we both tried our best but it didn't work out. He wanted to pursue flying as a career so we spoke at length about how it wasn't worth struggling during every phase of his training and that you should really love what you do for a living and hopefully be pretty good at it. He was disappointed but understood.
 
redtail said:
Maybe he's just not cut out for flying:dunno:.
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That's possible.
Have you guys (CFIs) ever had a student that just didn't get it? Did you ever have to turn away a student?
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Yes, and yes. As the manager in "Bull Durham" said, "This is the hardest part of the job." Seems to me we did a CFI podcast about this some time back. And as I hinted in my earlier post, I don't really know what a "processing defect" is, but it sounds like something that might be insurmountable, which is why I asked Bruce for more information on it.
 
Dr. Chien,

Could this be dyslexia (sp?) I had a friend when growing up who was dyslexic (again sp?) He was a really smart guy, but it effected him in many ways. That was so long ago I don't remember if he ever did anything as described in the OP.
 
IANAMD and all that but dyslexia is primarily a reading disability. This seems well beyond that. A "processing defect" might be better termed "cognitive disorder". Google that. Serious stuff and obviously nothing that I would attempt to pin down further; that would be the most utter speculation.
 
Guys I'm not a pilot but I am a darn good high school instructor and let me say the following. It definitely sounds like this guy has a specific learning disability. For instance, I have students who I give a table of contents of assignments to copy and they will repeatedly create the contents from #10 to #1 instead of #1-#10. No matter how I explain it or illustrate the concept they simply cannot perform tasks in logical order. I don't think this would be very good for someone who wants to be a pilot.
 
Before I read too far, let me add he's a sport student and I'm the only instructor small enough to fly with him.
 
redtail said:
I know there's a lot of things that I absolutely suck at so I don't even try them.....singing, dancing, sports, cooking, etc:rofl:. Then again, I'm not likely die trying them....am I ?:lol:
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Perhaps, perhaps not. About the only way to die from singing is to do it so badly someone decides to put you out of your (and their) misery but plenty of folks have met their end in sports (e.g. cliff diving is a sport), and if you eat your own cooking...
 
LJS1993 said:
Guys I'm not a pilot but I am a darn good high school instructor and let me say the following. It definitely sounds like this guy has a specific learning disability. For instance, I have students who I give a table of contents of assignments to copy and they will repeatedly create the contents from #10 to #1 instead of #1-#10. No matter how I explain it or illustrate the concept they simply cannot perform tasks in logical order. I don't think this would be very good for someone who wants to be a pilot.
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That sounds more like dyslexia. IAMAD. It is not about how you explain or illustrate, it is about how their brain works and how they perceive. Don't kick yourself. Or them.
 
Does this trait show in other areas of his life? How is his personal appearance? If he is otherwise, orderly then have you considered teaching him on a sim first until he satisfies your standards on procedures then put him in the airplane. By so doing, you would eliminate some possible distractions before going the medical route.

alfadog said:
Yes, there is definitely "something" going on here.

Supposing that this "something" would disqual him if diagnosed and on the medical (or at least would require some work of your sort) what, if any, responsibility does the CFI have to inform someone?

Similarly, what if the CFI knew the student had some other disqual condition that somehow slipped through the medical or was not self-reported in the medical history?
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I have the same questions.
 
I'd be surprised if this student hasn't had similar issues with other aspects of his life and perhaps found ways to cope with what appears to be a learning disability. Rather than trying to "fix" his problem on your own, I'd have a long and frank discussion with the student about the symptoms you've experienced with him and see if you can work something out together. Hopefully you'll be able to get across to him the need to overcome the problem in order to be a safe pilot.
 
Ron Levy said:
Can you expand on this? Just what is it, what's the prognosis, and is there any way for the instructor to deal with it?
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The short term memory link that takes information from the thought process regions to the control process regions is screwed up. This is an early indicator in several conditions.
 
It sounds like dyslexia to me as well. I have a close friend with the condition. I'd say he could fly a plane just fine, he has the motor skills and intelligence to work through mistakes he might make.

If I were the person responsible for his medical.. i'd limit him to day VFR. (Is LSA with no medical limited to day vfr?). He can drive a car or a boat just fine, no reason he couldn't do this with a plane. But at night or in IMC, you just can't struggle with procedures, headings and altitudes...

If he is just going for LSA w no medical, i'd say to keep training him and encourage him to work through his problems, so long as his motor skills and understanding of stick and rudder are normal, he can work through the rest of the stuff unless his condition is truly severe.
 
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dell30rb said:
It sounds like dyslexia to me as well. I have a close friend with the condition. I'd say he could fly a plane just fine, he has the motor skills and intelligence to work through mistakes he might make.

If I were the person responsible for his medical.. i'd limit him to day VFR. (Is LSA with no medical limited to day vfr?). He can drive a car or a boat just fine, no reason he couldn't do this with a plane. But at night or in IMC, you just can't struggle with procedures, headings and altitudes...

If he is just going for LSA w no medical, i'd say to keep training him and encourage him to work through his problems, so long as his motor skills and understanding of stick and rudder are normal, he can work through the rest of the stuff unless his condition is truly severe.
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Really? You think a person that cannot manage a checklist should be allowed to fly an airplane because he can usually manipulate the controls correctly? And when he tries to take-off on an empty tank, or with the gust lock still in? Or a hundred other things? Talking about the OP's student, not your friend.
 
alfadog said:
Really? You think a person that cannot manage a checklist should be allowed to fly an airplane because he can usually manipulate the controls correctly? And when he tries to take-off on an empty tank, or with the gust lock still in? Or a hundred other things? Talking about the OP's student, not your friend.
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Actually, the use of a printed checklist is something the OP's student should be able to do. Using a printed checklist will prevent all of those mistakes you just mentioned.

It sounded like the problem was getting things "not" on the printed checklist done. Things you should have memorized - like the emergency checklist. Or that you call ground before tower.

If the OP's student is dyslexic like my friend, he can memorize and learn important things in order, it just takes him longer to do so.

Edit: I just saw the part in the OP where it says the student has trouble with the printed checklist. Sounds like it is more serious than I thought...
 
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Is the student able to recite the correct sequence of events when he is on the ground, not in the airplane? For example, would he be able to say that he should first contact clearance then ground then tower? Can he recite the steps for doing a particular maneuver in the correct order? If he can't do these things while on the ground he probably would not be able to do it in an airplane while he is under more stress.
 
Hey Mari,

Most of the time he has trouble with doing things in order on the ground before even stepping foot in the plane as well. I'll tell him the correct order and the usual response is, "oh yea, that's right." I have talked to him before about having these issues and he said he's always been like that even in school when he was a kid. He's in his late 40s I think.
 
What is his reason for doing LSA?
 
Tristar said:
Most of the time he has trouble with doing things in order on the ground before even stepping foot in the plane as well. I'll tell him the correct order and the usual response is, "oh yea, that's right." I have talked to him before about having these issues and he said he's always been like that even in school when he was a kid. He's in his late 40s I think.
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That doesn't sound very promising. I would say that until he can do it reliably on the ground or while "chair flying", he'll have a lot of trouble doing it in the airplane. I am not a psychologist but it seems that would be some kind of learning disability. I wonder how he compensates in his real life and in his job.
 
Tristar said:
I have talked to him before about having these issues and he said he's always been like that even in school when he was a kid. He's in his late 40s I think.
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Time for a heart to heart where you explain that he must overcome this disability in order to fly safely. Tell him you're willing to work on it with him but the issue cannot simply be ignored.
 
> Time for a heart to heart where you explain that he must overcome this
> disability in order to fly safely. Tell him you're willing to work on it with him
> but the issue cannot simply be ignored.

+1
 
I don't know if this is legal, but can you to see if he has any prior police record(drugs)?
Along with the possible medical factors/genetic factors in his learning disability, drugs could also be another factor.
My $0.10. I will shut up now.
 
Hooboy, Tris. With LSA only you are on your own. No AME can help you out.

This doesn't sound like dyslexia. It sounds more fundamentally in the visual processing -->executive function.

The clinical psychs would have an expen$ive ball with this one....

What did he do to make his way through the world? Does he work with his hands? Is he in an office?
 
Henning said:
The short term memory link that takes information from the thought process regions to the control process regions is screwed up. This is an early indicator in several conditions.
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Thanks, but can we get confirmation (and perhaps some expansion, including aeromedical impact, prognosis, and treatment) of that from a real medical professional?
 
gismo said:
Time for a heart to heart where you explain that he must overcome this disability in order to fly safely. Tell him you're willing to work on it with him but the issue cannot simply be ignored.
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Concur. You don't need to know all the medical details, just that based on your observation of his performance, he cannot safely perform the duties of a pilot in command of an aircraft (even on the ground, it appears, no less in flight). If Bruce or the other medical experts here can suggest a course of action to alter that situation, you can certainly suggest that he contact an appropriate practitioner, and they you'll be happy to fly dual with him until the situation is resolved. Just make sure he understands that no matter what the docs say or do, he isn't going to be alone in an airplane until he can demonstrate satisfactory performance in flight.
 
I cannot venture so far as to say he can't be a pilot just yet. He's definitely a slow learner and has some challenges. I have talked to him a couple times about the sequencing and the forgetting being a problem. He understands where I'm coming from. It's odd that the last time he fumbled through radios but did fine getting through the emergency procedures even if they were out of order. Today he did okay on the radios but couldn't get through the emergencies, got so caught up in lining up for a field he'd forget everything else. I would ask him if he'd forgotten anything and he was able to tell me but didn't seem to fix it the next try. Every student is going to have issues but it's unusual to have 3 lessons on emergencies.
 
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Im new here but ive got abour 1000 hours dual given which I know for CFIs these days is actually alot lol! but I dont by any means think of myself as experienced yet. However over the last few years ive had a few students who frankly just dont get it!

On my CFI oral the FAA examiner asked me what are some qualities to look for in potential students, and I rattled off a few like technical skills, hand eye coordination etc, well the examiner was not satisfied and asked me what I though the most important trait a student could posess was. I was a little dumbfounded by this question and couldnt come up with just one answer so he answered it for me. His answer was "common sense" and I though to myself well doesnt everyone? Well after teaching roughly 30 students on and off the answer to my own question is simply no, some people just dont have the common sense to fly an airplane..I dont know if the lack of common sense is the perfect way to describe the OP's student, but it sounds like the student clearly lacks something in the mental department and I think that it really may be time to have the talk with him.

As CFI's were pushed by flight schools, Financial issues, and desire to build hours to try and fit every single person who has an interest for learning to fly onto our schedules and keep them flying. While its true that 8 people out of 10 that walk through your door have the physical and mental skills to get their license if they truely want it, there are still those 2 that simply cant do it! And as a CFI it is your job to recognize over time who those people are a sit them down and say simpy that this isnt for you. even though they might be upset, it is not fair to them if you keep taking their money, when you know that their isnt a snowballs chance in hell that they will ever be successful
 
Worth noting that he's a Cornhusker, and among his peer group is considered as "gifted." :D

*cue "Boomer Sooner" fight song
 
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