Student Flying over Clouds Question

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shawjames

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S. James
I recently had a cross country route check with another instructor, and I was asked if I can legally fly over a cloud as a student pilot. I answered yes, if I am at least 1,000 ft over the cloud and can see the ground at all times. The instructor seemed displeased with that answer, and said we would look it up after our session - but we never did.

There is no limitations in my logbook for cloud clearance, so I assume my limitations are basic VFR from 91.155.

I believe my answer is correct, but is there anything I may be missing?
 
Yes, a student must be in visual contact with the ground at all times. You can't fly over the clouds until you're a private pilot.

At least that's my recollection, too lazy to look it up.

Edit: oops I missed that you included "see the ground".

Reading is fundamental!
 
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timwinters said:
Yes, a student must be in visual contact with the ground at all times. You can't fly over the clouds until you're a private pilot.

At least that's my recollection, too lazy to look it up.
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I didn't know that one. I'm curious to know if that's true.
 
shawjames said:
I recently had a cross country route check with another instructor, and I was asked if I can legally fly over a cloud as a student pilot. I answered yes, if I am at least 1,000 ft over the cloud and can see the ground at all times. The instructor seemed displeased with that answer, and said we would look it up after our session - but we never did.

There is no limitations in my logbook for cloud clearance, so I assume my limitations are basic VFR from 91.155.

I believe my answer is correct, but is there anything I may be missing?
Click to expand...

14 CFR 61.89(a)(7)
(a) A student pilot may not act as pilot in command of an aircraft:
(7) When the flight cannot be made with visual reference to the surface;

Assuming you can maintain visual reference to the surface, you're good to go.

Of course:

(8) In a manner contrary to any limitations placed in the pilot's logbook by an authorized instructor.

...may be the ultimate limiting factor.
 
Well, there is a difference between flying over a cloud (ie a single cloud off by itself), or flying on top of an overcast or broken ceiling. I wonder if you and your displeased instructor were talking about the same thing.
Jon
 
4CornerFlyer said:
Well, there is a difference between flying over a cloud (ie a single cloud off by itself), or flying on top of an overcast or broken ceiling. I wonder if you and your displeased instructor were talking about the same thing.
Jon
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Yeah, sounded like a poor question that got the correct answer. As long as the coverage allows you reference to the surface, you are good to be above clouds.
 
As an aside, regardless of ratings and experience, anyone operating under Sport Pilot limitations has the same need to "maintain visual reference to the surface".

It's been bandied about exactly what that means, but I don't think it's ever been defined exactly.

In my interpretation, it means that one (I) cannot fly over a solid overcast extending in all directions. Ground seen through a scattered or broken layer is fine, as is a small patch of overcast I can see beyond or around or through (if thin or partial).

But Lord knows, others will gave their own interpretation!
 
If you can't refernce the ground,and your trusty GPS goes out,flying above clouds will teach you a hard lesson quickly.
 
The real problem comes with broken, or rapidly developing layers, that is where you can get trapped on top. This is why I think that in that hood training time involved in PP training, it's probably a good idea to do a PAR or ASR approach for familiarity.
 
timwinters;17[B said:
07550]Yes, a student must be in visual contact with the ground at all times. You can't fly over the clouds until you're a private pilot.[/B]

At least that's my recollection, too lazy to look it up.

Edit: oops I missed that you included "see the ground".

Reading is fundamental!
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Ok, stupid question time.
I have always understood and believed without question that certificated VFR pilots could not fly above the clouds if the ground was not visible in any direction.
Have I been wrong all this time?
 
JOhnH said:
Ok, stupid question time.
I have always understood and believed without question that certificated VFR pilots could not fly above the clouds if the ground was not visible in any direction.
Have I been wrong all this time?
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If by "certificated VFR pilots" you mean a person holding a Private certificate without an instrument rating then you've been wrong all this time.
 
Cloud limitations are the same for all VFR pilots. I agree, I love to climb above, especially around sunset, just have to be careful. Last time I went above the deck was after a front had past through the area, leaving thick stratus to the east with a few straggler left behind. Climbed through an open area and had a beautiful sunset from above.
 
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roncachamp said:
If by "certificated VFR pilots" you mean a person holding a Private certificate without an instrument rating then you've been wrong all this time.
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That's what I meant, and this is one of the first times I have been happy to be told I was wrong.
Thanks. I love being above the clouds a whole lot more than underneath of them.
 
JOhnH said:
Ok, stupid question time.
I have always understood and believed without question that certificated VFR pilots could not fly above the clouds if the ground was not visible in any direction.
Have I been wrong all this time?
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Yes, that is incorrect. If you hold a PP, you can fly over a solid under cast as long as both ends have a way up and down. Not to say it's a brilliant solution, but it is legal.
 
Henning said:
Yes, that is incorrect. If you hold a PP, you can fly over a solid under cast as long as both ends have a way up and down. Not to say it's a brilliant solution, but it is legal.
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The thing that surprises me even more than the fact that I was wrong is the fact that Leslie was wrong too. BTW, she is at ~10 hrs dual in the Bo. It is just taking a while due to various constraints.
 
Henning said:
Yes, that is incorrect. If you hold a PP, you can fly over a solid under cast as long as both ends have a way up and down. Not to say it's a brilliant solution, but it is legal.
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I question that.

If, at any point in the flight the pilot cannot see the surface at all, for that portion the pilot is in violation of the reg, regardless of the conditions on departure and arrival.

I don't really see how one could interpret it otherwise.
 
FastEddieB said:
I question that.

If, at any point in the flight the pilot cannot see the surface at all, for that portion the pilot is in violation of the reg, regardless of the conditions on departure and arrival.

I don't really see how one could interpret it otherwise.
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Which reg applies to a rated PP?
 
FastEddieB said:
I question that.

If, at any point in the flight the pilot cannot see the surface at all, for that portion the pilot is in violation of the reg, regardless of the conditions on departure and arrival.

I don't really see how one could interpret it otherwise.
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What reg are you referring to?
 
FastEddieB said:
Sorry - I was thinking of students and Sport Pilots and those operating under Sport Pilot limitations.

I have trouble keeping up sometimes!
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Yeah, like I said, I don't think it's bright, but it is legal once you have a PP. The thing that I would most consider is "What has changed between Student and Private that would suddenly make this safe?" The answer is "Nothing".
 
roncachamp said:
What reg are you referring to?
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As quoted by Brad Z:

14 CFR 61.89(a)(7)
(a) A student pilot may not act as pilot in command of an aircraft:
(7) When the flight cannot be made with visual reference to the surface;


This same language is also used for Sport Pilots and those operating under Sport Pilot limitations.

It is NOT relevant for a Private Pilot or above - sorry for any confusion.
 
roncachamp said:
If by "certificated VFR pilots" you mean a person holding a Private certificate without an instrument rating then you've been wrong all this time.
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You can, but the aircraft has to be IFR equipped.

Sec. 91.507 — Equipment requirements: Over-the-top or night VFR operations.

No person may operate an airplane over-the-top or at night under VFR unless that airplane is equipped with the instruments and equipment required for IFR operations under §91.205(d) and one electric landing light for night operations. Each required instrument and item of equipment must be in operable condition.
 
Pretty sure "over the top" is a specific clearance and not a general description of flying over an overcast, which you can legally do in a Cub, let's say.
 
FastEddieB said:
Pretty sure "over the top" is a specific clearance and not a general description of flying over an overcast, which you can legally do in a Cub, let's say.
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I thought "VFR on top" was more of an IFR clearance.
 
Henning said:
Yeah, like I said, I don't think it's bright, but it is legal once you have a PP. The thing that I would most consider is "What has changed between Student and Private that would suddenly make this safe?" The answer is "Nothing".
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The answer is "skill, confidence, education and experience"
Otherwise, why is it ok for an IFR pilot? Even an IFR pilot can't spot a suitable emergency landing area from above the clouds. I think flying in the turbulence below a cloud covering may be more dangerous than flying above.
 
JOhnH said:
The answer is "skill, confidence, education and experience"
Otherwise, why is it ok for an IFR pilot? Even an IFR pilot can't spot a suitable emergency landing area from above the clouds. I think flying in the turbulence below a cloud covering may be more dangerous than flying above.
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Because an IFR pilot has the abilities to make it down through a closed deck safely. Turbulence is not dangerous, it's uncomfortable as hell, but not dangerous.
 
Henning said:
Yeah, sounded like a poor question that got the correct answer. As long as the coverage allows you reference to the surface, you are good to be above clouds.
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I think I'd rather say "you are legal to be above clouds" -- too many bad things happen because the clouds close up beneath non-IR pilots, and a Student Pilot is even less well-equipped to deal with that eventuality, as well as having less experience by which to judge the likelihood of that happening.
 
Ron Levy said:
I think I'd rather say "you are legal to be above clouds" -- too many bad things happen because the clouds close up beneath non-IR pilots, and a Student Pilot is even less well-equipped to deal with that eventuality, as well as having less experience by which to judge the likelihood of that happening.
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I agree, which is why I think it was a poor question which got the wrong, yet accurate, answer.
 
Ryanb said:
Cloud limitations are the same for all VFR pilots.
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Not quite true. As noted above, Sport Pilots share the same "visual reference to the surface" restriction as Student Pilots, and so to Recreational Pilots. Only PP's and above are legal to be VFR above a deck without "visual reference to the surface".
 
FlyingIsGood said:
You can, but the aircraft has to be IFR equipped.

Sec. 91.507 — Equipment requirements: Over-the-top or night VFR operations.

No person may operate an airplane over-the-top or at night under VFR unless that airplane is equipped with the instruments and equipment required for IFR operations under §91.205(d) and one electric landing light for night operations. Each required instrument and item of equipment must be in operable condition.
Click to expand...

That's under Subpart F—LARGE AND TURBINE-POWERED MULTIENGINE AIRPLANES AND FRACTIONAL OWNERSHIP PROGRAM AIRCRAFT

Not applicable for what we are talking about here.
 
FastEddieB said:
AHA!

So my Cub statement was not wrong!

I hope.
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Yes, you could legally fly a Cub over a cloud deck. - if you are a private pilot exercising private pilot privileges.
 
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IFR - VFR on Top
VFR - Over the Top
 
FastEddieB said:
I question that.

If, at any point in the flight the pilot cannot see the surface at all, for that portion the pilot is in violation of the reg, regardless of the conditions on departure and arrival.

I don't really see how one could interpret it otherwise.
Click to expand...
Which regulation do you think prohibits that? Note that Student, Sport, and Recreational Pilots have that "visual reference to the surface" limitation explicitly in 61.89, 61.101, and 61.315, but not PP's in 61.113.
 
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