student and a PPL PIC

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muleywannabe

Pre-takeoff checklist
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As a student pilot, am I legal to fly with a person who has a PPL and is PIC? if they fly from the right seat as PIC, Can I still fly and use it as practice from the left seat? I am sure I cant log it as time until I am signed off for solo but thought I would ask.
 
Sure you can. There are no rules saying the PIC has to be in the left seat. The private pilot can not give instruction though
 
muleywannabe said:
As a student pilot, am I legal to fly with a person who has a PPL and is PIC? if they fly from the right seat as PIC, Can I still fly and use it as practice from the left seat? I am sure I cant log it as time until I am signed off for solo but thought I would ask.
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You can only log PIC time as a student if you are the only person in the aircraft. Once you pass your checkride you can log PIC time if you are rated in category (Airplane) and class (Single Engine Land) and are sole manipulator of the controls (or under a few more circumstances - EdFred will be along with a flowchart)
 
You can do so legally, but I strongly advise against it on safety and training grounds. The PP in the right seat is neither trained nor certified to evaluate your performance, determine when intervention is necessary, or intervene safely and effectively if necessary. While some PP's may be able to do that, my experience training people for CFI says the vast majority cannot. In addition, if I were your instructor, I'd be concerned that you are going to deviate from the habits and procedures I want you to learn and that PP will allow that to happen, thus making my job when you get back in the plane with me that much harder.

And you are correct that you could not log the time.
 
Also, my CFI mentioned to me that many schools require checkouts for right seat PIC renting because of insurance. It seems last time someone did that out here (a PPL riding right seat without telling anyone), they had a prop strike as the aircraft was entering the run up area!
 
muleywannabe said:
As a student pilot, am I legal to fly with a person who has a PPL and is PIC? if they fly from the right seat as PIC, Can I still fly and use it as practice from the left seat? I am sure I cant log it as time until I am signed off for solo but thought I would ask.
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You cannot fly with others unless they are a CFI. You can fly solo with an endorsement for solo as a student and PIC. But you can't take a passenger, even another pilot (PP) unless the PP is PIC and flying the plane with you as a passenger - but they can't fly from the right seat unless they have an endorsement to do that....
 
CTLSi said:
You cannot fly with others unless they are a CFI. You can fly solo with an endorsement for solo as a student and PIC. But you can't take a passenger, even another pilot (PP) unless the PP is PIC and flying the plane with you as a passenger - but they can't fly from the right seat unless they have an endorsement to do that....
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No such thing as an endorsement to fly from the right seat...

There are no rules saying what seat you have to fly in to be PIC. As long as your airplane has the proper dual controls you are fine. Of course, it takes a little getting used too, so maybe have a CFI or safety pilot with you when you try it out for the first time.
 
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CTLSi said:
You cannot fly with others unless they are a CFI. You can fly solo with an endorsement for solo as a student and PIC. But you can't take a passenger, even another pilot (PP) unless the PP is PIC and flying the plane with you as a passenger - but they can't fly from the right seat unless they have an endorsement to do that....
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Whoa! Umm ... Incorrect on multiple counts.

A student pilot can fly with any rated and current pilot - just like any other person can. But a student pilot may not log that time unless with a CFI and receiving instruction.

There is no "right seat endorsement."
 
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CTLSi said:
You cannot fly with others unless they are a CFI. You can fly solo with an endorsement for solo as a student and PIC. But you can't take a passenger, even another pilot (PP) unless the PP is PIC and flying the plane with you as a passenger - but they can't fly from the right seat unless they have an endorsement to do that....
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Can you show where you found these rules??????

He can fly with a PPL and control the plane, just the same as someone who is not a student or pilot can take the controls.

Aside from having an FBO stipulate what seat the renter is required to be in, there are no FARs stating which seat needs to be occupied.

He can go up with his PP! freind and have fun! just like flying is supposed to be.
 
muleywannabe said:
As a student pilot, am I legal to fly with a person who has a PPL and is PIC? if they fly from the right seat as PIC, Can I still fly and use it as practice from the left seat? I am sure I cant log it as time until I am signed off for solo but thought I would ask.
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Exactly. No logging without a CFI, so it doesn't count.

But it's legal for a trained monkey or a small kid or a poorly designed electromechanical servo to fly the airplane, as long as the PIC takes responsibility.
 
TommyG said:
Aside from having an FBO stipulate what seat the renter is required to be in, there are no FARs stating which seat needs to be occupied.
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There are some aircraft whose type certificates or POH specify that. There are also insurers which require the PIC to be in the left seat other than a CFI giving the training to the insured pilot. But as a general rule, it would be legal for a Student Pilot to occupy the left seat and be the sole manipulator of the controls of the average light single while a PP occupies the right seat and acts as PIC. Not necessarily a good idea, perhaps, but nevertheless legal.
 
CTLSi said:
You cannot fly with others unless they are a CFI. You can fly solo with an endorsement for solo as a student and PIC. But you can't take a passenger, even another pilot (PP) unless the PP is PIC and flying the plane with you as a passenger - but they can't fly from the right seat unless they have an endorsement to do that....
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There may be insurance rules that say that.

But the FAA doesn't give a rat's posterior which seat you fly from. Some airplanes don't even have left seats (e.g. Citabria 7ECA).

From a safety perspective, you might want to be sure you can reach all relevant controls. Not all airplanes have brakes in both positions, for instance. Even in a 172, it can be difficult to reach the primer, ignition switch, and master from the right seat, and in a Cherokee, it can be hard to reach the fuel selector.
 
MAKG1 said:
But the FAA doesn't give a rat's posterior which seat you fly from. Some airplanes don't even have left seats (e.g. Citabria 7ECA).
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Sometimes the FAA does "give a rat's posterior which seat you fly from", as noted above. And the fact that it's a tandem doesn't change that -- for example, it's solo from rear seat only in a J-3 Cub.

From a safety perspective, you might want to be sure you can reach all relevant controls. Not all airplanes have brakes in both positions, for instance. Even in a 172, it can be difficult to reach the primer, ignition switch, and master from the right seat, and in a Cherokee, it can be hard to reach the fuel selector.
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Exactly.
 
Ron Levy said:
And the fact that it's a tandem doesn't change that -- for example, it's solo from rear seat only in a J-3 Cub.
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Unless the TCDS or AFM has limitations on where the PIC sits I'd expect that any seat with "fully functioning flight controls" would be legal for the PIC with a student or non-pilot at the other "control station" regardless of the requirement to solo from a particular seat. IME the solo issue in a tandem seat airplane is usually a CG issue, not a control one.

Is there any reason to believe that a pilot couldn't legally put a non pilot in the rear seat and fly from the front of a J-3?
 
gismo said:
Unless the TCDS or AFM has limitations on where the PIC sits I'd expect that any seat with "fully functioning flight controls" would be legal for the PIC with a student or non-pilot at the other "control station" regardless of the requirement to solo from a particular seat. IME the solo issue in a tandem seat airplane is usually a CG issue, not a control one.
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Agreed, but it is an FAA restriction on where you fly from, and I was responding to the unqualified statement "But the FAA doesn't give a rat's posterior which seat you fly from," because sometimes they do. Another case is either the DA40 or the SR22 which has a restriction that if the autopilot is used, the left seat must be occupied. Doesn't say who has to occupy it, just that it must be "occupied".
Is there any reason to believe that a pilot couldn't legally put a non pilot in the rear seat and fly from the front of a J-3?
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Nope. In fact, that's exactly what happened on my first training flight.
 
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