Student Airmen--It Might Actually be YOU, and not Your CFI

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spiderweb

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Ben
This is for you, students, who want to know why your training might not be going so well. I write this as a private pilot, instrument-rated, of 13 years; but much more importantly, as an instructor of 25 years.

Let's start with this--it is very entirely possible that your flight training is not going well because of your instructor. But I want to help you figure out why that may or may not be.

First of all, common sense tells us that not all instructors work well with all students. I had a cello teacher of international repute whose primary method was to insult his students. It worked well with me, because I took it as a challenge. But it didn't work with all of his students. I had yet another teacher who, on the first lesson, put down the gauntlet and challenged me to rise to a better skill level than his. That was both daunting and exciting. The point here is that -sometimes- if there is a problem, it is because of teaching styles--but it is probably rarer than you think.

Your CFI, just like thousands of music teachers or taekwondo teachers or gymnastic coaches, might be teaching just to build hours and get a paycheck. But he might also be a good teacher, while on that journey, and even very much happy being an instructor.

Having said that, here are some things of which to be wary:

1) Is the CFI accepting phone calls and/or texts during your lesson? One of those every now and then is excusable, but if this is a habit, take note. Oh and by the way, is your CFI texting while you're flying, especially under the hood? That's someone who not only is not paying attention to the lesson--he also doesn't hold safety in high regard.

2) Is your CFI constantly berating you? You might deserve it! Contrary to AOPA, not everyone "can learn to fly," and we should all be proud of that! But if your CFI is badgering you and putting you down, but not helping you learn how to FIX a given problem, then be wary. It is easy to be displeased at sub-par performances; but it takes a teacher to show the student how to improve.

3) On the other side of the coin, is your teacher overly dismissive of poor performance? Is he laughing off 100 ft deviations, or three-dot excursions on an ILS? Barring bad turbulence and constantly shifting winds, those diversions are indicators of slop. You should want to fix that slop, and your instructor should want you to be able to do so, as well! If he's laughing it off, he might think that it doesn't matter--as long as he's building time and making money, who cares?

4) Is your instructor flying too much for you? Your CFI should describe and demonstrate a maneuver or approach as well as possible, and then let YOU practice it, with a minimum of intervention, and then mostly only for safety. The equivalent in my world is the teacher who is constantly playing, and hoping you can simply mimic what he is doing.

5) Finally, and perhaps more subtly, does your CFI enjoy the lessons? Teaching is an honor and privilege. In aviation, good instruction can mean the difference between life and death. When I have a student who really has no talent, or who is purposefully unwilling to do what I say, I do get annoyed. But I dismiss them. I lose money, yes, but it isn't right for me to teach this sort of student.

So, are you really going to be a pilot? The fact that only 10% of student pilots make it all the way to the cert. should not be disheartening--it should be a badge of honor for those who make it through!
 
I did not know only 10% make it.

I guess I got lucky with my CFI. One thing that stuck with me is he was adamant on keeping your head OUTSIDE the cockpit and stay AHEAD of the airplane. I still practice this to this day. When I have the airport in sight for instance, I just fly the airplane by sight and feel to the landing.

Look outside! I can still hear him saying that. :)
 
...same here. I started when I was 19 and in the military but in the back of my head knew i wasn't going to finish it then...not enough time or money and it was cheap back then. I just wanted to get a fix.

My CFI was awesome - not a PTS kinda guy...he's mostly focused on A&P work now, but he is a 30k hour ATP that can fly anything...with or without wings...he focused on teaching me to fly the plane. I'm grateful for that. It made me a better pilot and kept me interested.
 
Your title is a bit misleading. You still posted mostly about what instructors could be doing wrong, not the students. However, you do have some excellent points. I remember having a CFI text the whole time. On occasion is fine, but not in the middle of a maneuver. I cannot compare to 25 years of teaching but I did teach for 4 years and can honestly say much more than 10 percent of my students went all the way through. If I only had 1 in 10 finish, I probably wouldn't have had a job.

Want to know how to be a successful student?

1. Study and take notes during ground sessions! I even encouraged mine to write down what they learned during the entire lesson and then review it before next lesson. I had so much respect for students that took notes while I taught. I'm not perfect at studying either but people can tell when no effort was made especially when you try to fake it.

2. Consider yourself normal when you hit plateaus. Instructors know what these are. You are not the first nor will you be the last to have trouble with landings and communications. You'll be okay. However...if it takes you 200 hours back to back...your instructor is probably worried about you. (Being honest) If you find yourself not learning anything, it's ok to ask to either move on or brush up on another topic. Experienced instructors will usually sense this and be ahead of you. We get frustrated too and would gladly do something fun like unusual attitudes.

3. Don't no show repeatedly or show up drunk. You will loose respect and be sent home if drunk.

4. For the ladies in 150s, try not to get uptight about the momentary arm behind you. Most guys don't fit 150s very well. However don't be afraid to speak up if they do something out of line.

5. If you are having trouble articulating a topic, try switching roles! I used to have my students talk me through how to do stalls both on the ground and in the air. Talk to your instructor like he was your buddy and he wanted to understand that a stall had nothing to do with the engine but everything to do with wind and the wings. Then explain what to do if a wing drops. If you can do those things, I promise your understanding of any topic will improve. It's part of the pre and post brief anyways. Plus, how cool is it to make your instructor sit down and listen to you talk for a change. Btw, we love this role reversal stuff!

This is just a start and many instructors with many different teaching styles have many different tips as well. Instructors are incapable of being taught for every different person's learning style in every situation but thankfully students are enough alike and usually have enough enthusiasm to pull through the tough spots. If it helps, there's very few situations instructors didn't know the outcome well in advance to prevent dents and scrapes. I used to tell my guys, "there's not much you can do that I can't fix."

Also remember instructors are not god and don't know/remember every little detail. (It's a secret they don't say willingly) There is absolutely no shame in looking things up and learning together.

We are in aviation because we love it. If you are not enjoying yourself, you are not learning and the instructor isn't having any fun either. So relax and have some fun!
 
Fyi, the claim that not everyone can learn to fly is disingenuous at best, and smacks of arrogance. Every one can learn to fly, it is actually quite easy (easier than driving actually).

I believe that the 10% pass rate comes from instructors that believe that not everyone can fly, combined with lacking knowledge and dedication to adjust to the student's best learning technique.

The FAA makes it worse by trying to dictate style and course content. Much better for the FAA to butt out just focus on the exam itself
 
SkyHog said:
Fyi, the claim that not everyone can learn to fly is disingenuous at best, and smacks of arrogance. Every one can learn to fly, it is actually quite easy (easier than driving actually).

I believe that the 10% pass rate comes from instructors that believe that not everyone can fly, combined with lacking knowledge and dedication to adjust to the student's best learning technique.
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I think the claim that not everyone can learn to fly is not false, but misleading. There are some people with terrible spatial awareness or anumeracy or bad anxiety, etc. Some of these border between "ability" and "medical issue", but my point is that claiming everyone can fly isn't much better than claiming only 10% of people can.

Still, I suspect 95% can learn to fly, given a decent instructor and ample funding. I suspect the 10% number comes from people who quit when they realize the expense (for training or long-term to exercise the privilege) or that their loved ones aren't into it. (I like solo flight as much as the next guy, but what really does it for me is taking friends and family on little trips. I don't know that I'd put the effort into staying current if it was just for solo flight. Lucky I figured this out early enough to pick a family with that in mind...)
 
Thanks for creating this thread and for all who posted. I'm a new student. I have less than 5 hours of flying time. I was considering either switching instructors or just studying for the knowledge test and then start flying again. The reason is that my instructor uses what I consider to be a very rude tone of voice sometimes in the way he explains things. He yells at me when I make mistakes and sometimes doesn't explain what I need to do just asks me to do them. This is very hard when I'm still getting familiar with the instruments, learning radio communication and even taxing. I fear making mistakes and consequently I'm too slow in reacting or applying controls efficiently. I enjoy part of the lesson but not all. I know that I'm learning but I'm very discouraged at the moment.

Another issue is that every time we fly we find something wrong with the plane. There have been minor electronic problems but also a mechanical problem with the nose wheel. I'm not confident of my safety in that plane maybe because I'm new and don't know these kind of problems are common in planes that are 30 years old.

I was looking forward to working hard and earning my pilot certificate but was not counting on having to deal with these things. I appreciate the comments on this thread and I'm interested in what others have to say about my experience.
 
I must have misread. You're a private pilot of 13 years but an instructor of 25 years?
 
Bucket of prop wash, If your CFI yells and is rude find another one. Simple as that. There is no reason you should pay someone as an instructor and be treated in that way. Is he an old ex military guy?
There are other CFIs in your area. If you post where you live I imagine someone here can make a suggestion.
 
BucketOfPropwash said:
Another issue is that every time we fly we find something wrong with the plane. There have been minor electronic problems but also a mechanical problem with the nose wheel. I'm not confident of my safety in that plane maybe because I'm new and don't know these kind of problems are common in planes that are 30 years old.
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BTDT. Bad brakes, missing Lord mounts on the cowl, tires looked like they should have been changed 50 hours ago. Though my instructor was overall excellent, the plane was the only one available to him on a regular basis. So I switched to a different flight school 25 miles away. Best decision I ever made.
 
My CFII was just a chump....Plain and simple. All he talked about was getting on a regional. He would get mad if I did something wrong and yell my airplane!if he didn't like what I was doing.

I never learned dme arcs or how to use an NDB because of him. He just quit on me and was along for the ride. Without warning one day, he didn't show up. Found out 15 min after my lesson was to start he got hired by Delta connection to fly a turbo prop and just walked away.

I hope that dude got fired for a long time. He was an Adam Henry for sure.

My follow up instructor got me to the check ride a few hours later and that was that.
 
Reading the OP, I'm wondering what students can do that would make the student responsible for lack of progress.

Does the Student:
1) Study before and after each flight?
2) Show up on-time / 5 minutes early?
3) Ask guiding questions and take notes during the ground session?
4) Make sure they draft/understand the Plan of Action & how it ties in to the overall syllabus and getting their license BEFORE they go out to the ramp?
5) Make an effort during flight & ask for clarification when unsure and address issues that "pop up" during the flight?
6) Exercise generally good judgment, motor coordination, and awareness?
7) Understand that nobody's perfect- they just have to be SAFE?
8) Lead the debrief, ask the instructor for a critique, and make sure all the student's questions are answered?
9) Schedule the next flight within a reasonable period of time (2-5 days)

Other than these few items, I don't know of anything that students can do on their end to help them get their certificates. :dunno:. The last option of course, being finding a different or more compatible school/instructor.
 
Bucketofpropwash-

Do you:

1) Feel safe with the overall condition of the plane?
2) Have fun and look forward to flying with your instructor?
3) Feel that you are learning something with most lessons?

If not, find a different CFI/school.

Things can and will break on aircraft occasionally; but if is constant and/or a safety issue that is not being addressed- RUN, don't walk in the other direction.

As for the other stuff: you are the customer. If your CFI is not treating you like a valued customer, then take your business elsewhere.
 
I too am curious where that 10% success rate comes from? I've met a number of people who got the private certificate and then subsequently dropped out of aviation for various reasons but very few that started training and then dropped out before obtaining the certificate.
 
SkyHog said:
Fyi, the claim that not everyone can learn to fly is disingenuous at best, and smacks of arrogance. Every one can learn to fly, it is actually quite easy (easier than driving actually).
Click to expand...
I'd contend that any of the higher primates could be trained to manipulate the controls of an airplane successfully, OTOH there are people who suffer from such anxiety that they'll freeze up and be unable to function under pressure.
 
And there is much more to becoming a pilot than just manipulating the controls of an aircraft.
 
There are people who cannot learn to fly. Or maybe I should say they should not try.

I'll use my own wife for an example.

She panics. She freezes up or starts gasping or screaming when things go bad. If a bee or wasp flew into the cockpit, look out. She loses control. She's just too nervous and flips out too easy, and I would not try to teach her....:no:
 
SkyHog said:
Fyi, the claim that not everyone can learn to fly is disingenuous at best, and smacks of arrogance.
Click to expand...

It's also true. NOT everyone in fact can learn to fly. It's not arrogance, it's fact.

Every one can learn to fly, it is actually quite easy (easier than driving actually).
Click to expand...

As someone who has a driver's license as well, I vigorously disagree with you.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
It's also true. NOT everyone in fact can learn to fly. It's not arrogance, it's fact.



As someone who has a driver's license as well, I vigorously disagree with you.
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When was the last time you flew for an hour every morning, feet from 3 other planes, with only one option for a direction to travel?

On the flip side, when was the last time you were driving, and took your hands off the steering wheel for 30-45 seconds to grab a new map, fold it, and figure out where you were only to look up and see that you were still on the road and safe?

When was the last time you let a passenger who had never driven a car before grab the controls and drive for a while in the middle of nowhere because it was fun?

It is not a popular opinion because it reduces the "I'm so awesome because I am a pilot" factor, but it's true. A monkey with mental illness could safely fly a plane. He couldn't drive a car safely though.
 
RichNY said:
I must have misread. You're a private pilot of 13 years but an instructor of 25 years?
Click to expand...

He didn't say he was a flight instructor for 25 years, just that he's been an instructor for 25 years. There is a lot of cross-over in teaching skills and experiences regardless of what you're teaching. Someone who is good at teaching in one field would probably be good at teaching in another field.
 
SkyHog said:
When was the last time you flew for an hour every morning, feet from 3 other planes, with only one option for a direction to travel?

On the flip side, when was the last time you were driving, and took your hands off the steering wheel for 30-45 seconds to grab a new map, fold it, and figure out where you were only to look up and see that you were still on the road and safe?

When was the last time you let a passenger who had never driven a car before grab the controls and drive for a while in the middle of nowhere because it was fun?
Click to expand...

Yes, pretty much ANY "monkey" can grab the controls and fly around. But that's not all there is to it. Unless you know a VERY lenient DPE.

I'm talking "learning to fly" in the figurative sense and all that goes with getting that certificate, not just horsing the aircraft around on an intro flight.

It is not a popular opinion because it reduces the "I'm so awesome because I am a pilot" factor, but it's true. A monkey with mental illness could safely fly a plane. He couldn't drive a car safely though.
Click to expand...

Speak for yourself, I don't have the "I'm awesome because I'm a pilot" mentality.
 
A lot of good points in this post. I've been blessed with a father who is a pilot for Delta who has given me a lot of career/training advice that I would have no idea about if it not for him. I am also blessed with fantastic flight instructors. The one thing I like about my instructors is that they are VERY honest with me and know how to use constructive criticism. If he didn't like my manuever or ladning, he will tell me. But instead of just berating me,he will say something like, "your approach looked good until..." He also likes to poont out things I did well and I did correctly which some instructors might only point out the students mistakes. We both learn from each other on every flight
 
warthog1984 said:
Bucketofpropwash-

Do you:

1) Feel safe with the overall condition of the plane?
2) Have fun and look forward to flying with your instructor?
3) Feel that you are learning something with most lessons?

If not, find a different CFI/school.
Click to expand...
1) Yes. Relatively safe. It's just that at this point when things are broken, it adds to the pressure of learning.
2) I have some fun but a lot of stress
3) I am definitely learning with each lesson and with each passing moment.

Thanks everyone for their input. I'm going to take more responsibility for my training and do the things that others mentioned such as studying, asking more questions and preparing ahead of the training. Also be more engaged in the debriefing (we don't always have debriefings and seldom discuss what we're going to do before start flying).
 
I agree that it's probably rare to find someone that really can't learn to fly an airplane safely if they can drive a car safely, and probably VERY rare to find someone who just can't learn to manipulate the controls. But there are definitely people who should not be flying because they are a menace to everyone. I just heard a story about someone I know who allegedly landed with someone behind him in the pattern on a no wind/direct crosswind day, turned around, and took off in the opposite direction with the other traffic on short final. This person is infamous for doing other seriously unsafe things with his airplane on the ground, some of which I have witnessed myself so I suspect they are mostly true (possibly identifying details deleted). Some people do not have the temperament or maturity to be safe pilots. I suspect, though, that fortunately, they are rare.

And I'll also wager that if only 10% of student pilots eventually get their PPL, the reasons have more to do with finances, persistence of interest, and objections of spouses than anything else.
 
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Agree ^

We should never speak in terms of absolutes though. There is always an exception:)
 
SkyHog said:
Fyi, the claim that not everyone can learn to fly is disingenuous at best, and smacks of arrogance. Every one can learn to fly, it is actually quite easy (easier than driving actually).
Click to expand...

Anyone who can drive can manipulate an airplane's controls to make it go up, down, left and right.

Not all are good with spacial awareness. When landing, matching proper speed and attitude while flying in close formation with the ground (on the centerline) is far more difficult than stepping on a brake pedal at a Stop sign.

Cars are not affected by winds and stray off course.
Cars don't bounce into the air if you get it wrong.
Cars never stall/spin if they go too slow.
Cars don't care about mixture, cowl flaps, or engine management at all, except to keep the RPM at or below redline.

Some people have no desire to learn about weather
Some people have no desire to learn about the FARs, standard radio phraseology, yada, yada....

I'm not a CFI, but as a race car driver and instructor, it is quickly apparent which students have a good feel of what the car is doing, and those that simply move the controls in a mechanical fashion, and wonder why the car reacts as it does.

The learning curve for a pilot's license is more like the competition license needed to race than your standard driver's license. Neither are incredibly difficult, but both require a higher level of commitment and money than merely driving to the grocery store.

The local driving school takes 16-year-old kids, has a few one-hour class sessions and a handful of drives with an instructor, and has a 90% passing rate. Lets see your local FBO match that record!
 
Folks, to clarify, that 10% doesn't mean that only 10% of those who applied for the checkride passed it. It means that there is a certain percentage of persons who quit before solo, another group which quits right after, another which quits after long cross-countries, another which never takes the written, another which never gets a physical, etc.

This is how we want it to be--or, at least, we should want it to be. Earning the privilege of piloting a plane should not merely show you can monkey an airplane around in the sky; rather, it should show knowledge of aerodynamics, airplane systems, weather, traffic control, etc., in addition to that. That takes dedication.

A person asked me about how I could be a pilot for 13 years, but an instructor for 25 years. I have been teaching the cello, piano, and instructing at colleges for that time (not aviation). I've probably taught about 1,000 private students and thousands of classroom students. In that time, I've learned that lots of people can play an instrument or learn a bit of music theory, but it takes special dedication to actually become a professional music. In that profession, we also want it to be that way.
 
Great post!

Tristar said:
Your title is a bit misleading. You still posted mostly about what instructors could be doing wrong, not the students. However, you do have some excellent points. I remember having a CFI text the whole time. On occasion is fine, but not in the middle of a maneuver. I cannot compare to 25 years of teaching but I did teach for 4 years and can honestly say much more than 10 percent of my students went all the way through. If I only had 1 in 10 finish, I probably wouldn't have had a job.

Want to know how to be a successful student?

1. Study and take notes during ground sessions! I even encouraged mine to write down what they learned during the entire lesson and then review it before next lesson. I had so much respect for students that took notes while I taught. I'm not perfect at studying either but people can tell when no effort was made especially when you try to fake it.

2. Consider yourself normal when you hit plateaus. Instructors know what these are. You are not the first nor will you be the last to have trouble with landings and communications. You'll be okay. However...if it takes you 200 hours back to back...your instructor is probably worried about you. (Being honest) If you find yourself not learning anything, it's ok to ask to either move on or brush up on another topic. Experienced instructors will usually sense this and be ahead of you. We get frustrated too and would gladly do something fun like unusual attitudes.

3. Don't no show repeatedly or show up drunk. You will loose respect and be sent home if drunk.

4. For the ladies in 150s, try not to get uptight about the momentary arm behind you. Most guys don't fit 150s very well. However don't be afraid to speak up if they do something out of line.

5. If you are having trouble articulating a topic, try switching roles! I used to have my students talk me through how to do stalls both on the ground and in the air. Talk to your instructor like he was your buddy and he wanted to understand that a stall had nothing to do with the engine but everything to do with wind and the wings. Then explain what to do if a wing drops. If you can do those things, I promise your understanding of any topic will improve. It's part of the pre and post brief anyways. Plus, how cool is it to make your instructor sit down and listen to you talk for a change. Btw, we love this role reversal stuff!

This is just a start and many instructors with many different teaching styles have many different tips as well. Instructors are incapable of being taught for every different person's learning style in every situation but thankfully students are enough alike and usually have enough enthusiasm to pull through the tough spots. If it helps, there's very few situations instructors didn't know the outcome well in advance to prevent dents and scrapes. I used to tell my guys, "there's not much you can do that I can't fix."

Also remember instructors are not god and don't know/remember every little detail. (It's a secret they don't say willingly) There is absolutely no shame in looking things up and learning together.

We are in aviation because we love it. If you are not enjoying yourself, you are not learning and the instructor isn't having any fun either. So relax and have some fun!
Click to expand...
 
I hope by now I've made it clear that I wasn't claiming only 10% of people can fly. Rather, I was saying that only 10% of those who take that first flight end up following through all the studying, testing, learning, physical, researching, etc., then get to the checkride and pass.

Think of Taekwondo schools. How many start in those beginner classes compared to the number of those who end up with that first dan black belt?

mcmanigle said:
I think the claim that not everyone can learn to fly is not false, but misleading. There are some people with terrible spatial awareness or anumeracy or bad anxiety, etc. Some of these border between "ability" and "medical issue", but my point is that claiming everyone can fly isn't much better than claiming only 10% of people can.

Still, I suspect 95% can learn to fly, given a decent instructor and ample funding. I suspect the 10% number comes from people who quit when they realize the expense (for training or long-term to exercise the privilege) or that their loved ones aren't into it. (I like solo flight as much as the next guy, but what really does it for me is taking friends and family on little trips. I don't know that I'd put the effort into staying current if it was just for solo flight. Lucky I figured this out early enough to pick a family with that in mind...)
Click to expand...
 
"only 10% make it all the way to the certificate" seems pretty clear to me.
 
Jeanie said:
And there is much more to becoming a pilot than just manipulating the controls of an aircraft.
Click to expand...

Isn't that the truth! Just witness the questions asked about stalls , spins, crosswind landings, etc. and many have a ppl!
 
Nick, I'm just gonna quote Henry Jones Jr.

"Fly? Yes. Land? No."
 
SkyHog said:
Fyi, the claim that not everyone can learn to fly is disingenuous at best, and smacks of arrogance. Every one can learn to fly, it is actually quite easy (easier than driving actually).

I believe that the 10% pass rate comes from instructors that believe that not everyone can fly, combined with lacking knowledge and dedication to adjust to the student's best learning technique.

The FAA makes it worse by trying to dictate style and course content. Much better for the FAA to butt out just focus on the exam itself
Click to expand...

Anyone can learn to manipulate the controls of an airplane (possibly even to passable standards); however, NOT everyone has what it takes to be a pilot. In fact there are some "pilots" who really shouldn't even be allowed to decide what to have for dinner let alone fly an airplane. I would know, I've flown with some of them.
 
I, too, used to think that (almost) anyone could be a pilot. That was before I was a CFI.
 
SkyHog said:
When was the last time you flew for an hour every morning, feet from 3 other planes, with only one option for a direction to travel?

On the flip side, when was the last time you were driving, and took your hands off the steering wheel for 30-45 seconds to grab a new map, fold it, and figure out where you were only to look up and see that you were still on the road and safe?

When was the last time you let a passenger who had never driven a car before grab the controls and drive for a while in the middle of nowhere because it was fun?

It is not a popular opinion because it reduces the "I'm so awesome because I am a pilot" factor, but it's true. A monkey with mental illness could safely fly a plane. He couldn't drive a car safely though.
Click to expand...

Just because there is one regime of flight (cruise) that does not always require a lot from the pilot, doesn't mean that it's all easy. There is a lot that comes before and after that flight regime. More importantly, there are a lot of dangers that creep up on you if you let your guard down. I don't recall anyone driving a car falling to their death because they drove too slowly. There is also a lot of weather I will happily drive in that I wouldn't dream of flying my own plane in.
 
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