Struggling to Land the Plane

jg2000 said:
Hi everyone.

So I have been flying for over 20 hours now and have done about 80 landings.

I generally find I can do most things in the plane reasonably well. We've basically just done traffic patters and a few essential things out of the pattern like turns, climbing and descending, stalls.

I am flying at a controlled airport and have pretty much nailed the traffic pattern.

However, the landings are just disastrous. Every time I land I flare to early or too quickly and we balloon and slam down on the runway. I know when the plane balloons quite a lot to level the nose and then flare when it descends again, but

My CFI just says I need more practise to nail the landings, but it feels like I am not making any improvement.

I usually fly once or sometimes twice a week so it's not like I am forgetting lots. Not sure if the airport helps. The traffic pattern is fairly large and it's a busy field with a bit of commercial traffic which sometimes means that I don't do that many touch and goes in the hour. It has a huge 8000 feet runway though.

Any suggestions on how to master the flare and improve? I feel like I am just stuck at this stage and will never solo.
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If your CFI isn't yelling at you, pulling the seat cushion out of nether regions, or squeezing blood out of the glareshield, and he's still willing to let you fly the landing without yelling "my airplane" at the top of his lungs, you're probably doing OK.

Landings are one of those things that everyone can improve on. Just focus on nailing the airspeed and glideslope on final, and the rest will come along.

If you want some perspective, I suggest reading Stephen Coont's "Cannibal Queen". Even with all his experience as Navy A-6 pilot in Viet Nam, and a well experienced GA pilot, he spends half the book bemoaning his inability to perfect the landings in his Stearman Biplane.
 
wilkersk said:
If your CFI isn't yelling at you, pulling the seat cushion out of nether regions, or squeezing blood out of the glareshield, and he's still willing to let you fly the landing without yelling "my airplane" at the top of his lungs, you're probably doing OK.

Landings are one of those things that everyone can improve on. Just focus on nailing the airspeed and glideslope on final, and the rest will come along.

If you want some perspective, I suggest reading Stephen Coont's "Cannibal Queen". Even with all his experience as Navy A-6 pilot in Viet Nam, and a well experienced GA pilot, he spends half the book bemoaning his inability to perfect the landings in his Stearman Biplane.
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From your recommendation I picked it up. I’m halfway through it. Good book.
At least so far, in his tailwheel (Stearman), i already see wha you mean about him working on his landings, but found it interesting that once he stopped using peripheral for checking his height, and decided to look left then right briefly at the right time so far he writes that his landings started getting a lot better.
Also he’s landing almost always at airports that are new to him. Since I’m halfway through, will be interesting to see if the improved landings hold with his focus an look left and right.

He has a similar style to Richard Bach’s more nuts and bolts flying stories, and that great “Skyhawk Companion” style. These books are like gold to me, as it helps a lot to get into the mindset of an experienced pilot, as well as their foibles. Decision making, and every one of them also has the pilot/author making some decisions they also share where they feel they really didn’t have their head in the game. Of course, it’s on a different level than students not having their focus, but the honesty and tips and sharing is good to read.
 
LongRoadBob said:
At least so far, in his tailwheel (Stearman), i already see wha you mean about him working on his landings, but found it interesting that once he stopped using peripheral for checking his height, and decided to look left then right briefly at the right time so far he writes that his landings started getting a lot better.
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As I mentioned upthread, the way peripheral vision works should make it lousy for discerning small variations in height. But I won’t argue with success, so if it’s working for some, great.

In Stearman - or in any tandem plane - the pilot is sitting on the centerline of the plane so looking either left or right, or alternating is a fine. In fact, I like the alternating suggestion, since it fits with the “head on a swivel” philosophy and takes in more information, which is good.

But in a side-by-side, I’ll still advocate looking primarily in the direction of the side you’re on - left in most cases for the PIC or right for instructors or copilots. As the nose comes up, the nose and panel will very often largely or completely block the view in the opposite direction anyway, so there’s little information to be gained by doing so.

But again, we’re all wired a bit differently, and we each have to find the technique that works best for us.
 
And in the interest of full disclosure...

For the last 12 years and 600 hours I’ve flown my Sky Arrow almost exclusively. My most common GoPro mount is attached to the bill of a baseball cap. In general, we turn our heads to coincide with where we’re looking, so this camera angle gives a pretty good indication of where I’m looking at any given moment.

And so...

49077991828_cd3948700e.jpg


That’s a screen shot of a soft field landing at touchdown with the nose WAY up in the air. So, truth be told, I was looking pretty much straight ahead, and that view right over the nose works for me in my particular plane. If I had to guess, my eyes are scanning maybe 50’ ahead of the plane to judge height.

But I recently I had a chance to do some landings from the back seat of a Citabria, and looking to the side, which is mandatory from the back seat, came right back to me.

So, again, I guess I’m saying “whatever works”!
 
Everyone I have ever flown with who sucks at landings does one of two things. 1. They blindly pull back until the plane slams into the ground or 2. they do the "sampling" technique with 0 finese. Both result in the airplane going up before it goes down. Go find a long runway and do a couple landings where you don't reduce the power until you are on the ground. After 1-2 good landings reduce the power a little bit at the threshold, keep doing that until you are able to make full power off landings. The pull power, nose drops phenomenon overwhelms people. Introducing it slowly while acclimate them to proper "flaring" and "sampling". Or just keep doing landings until one day you get "it".
 
The "Bold Method" guy talks about how the runway seems to "zoom" in size as you approach ground effect height. I think its about as good a way to describe it as any. But, I suspect that perfecting the flare is really just an individual thing you have to figure out for yourself. For a dumb klutz like me its just shear muscle memory, learned through several thousand repetitions. And, with my current ride's springy 1 piece aluminum gear, I'm still not nearly as consistent at it as I'd like to be.

https://www.boldmethod.com/learn-to...d-touchdown-for-a-perfect-landing-every-time/
 
May sound odd, but some of the better landings I've made are short field. I think it might be because I'm concentrating on holding speed and targeting touch down spot so much that I don't have time / capacity to over think and over control. Give it a try.
 
WDD said:
May sound odd, but some of the better landings I've made are short field. I think it might be because I'm concentrating on holding speed and targeting touch down spot so much that I don't have time / capacity to over think and over control. Give it a try.
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That makes sense to me if it's an actual short field and not just a simulated one because shorter fields are often narrower runways too. Narrow runways give you actual-size things to look at next to airplane, like blades of grass, weeds, runway lights. Can't see them at big airports if you land on the centerline.
 
Another issue is rudder and/or elevator authority. The prop wash spirals around the fuselage, particularly on a low-wing. Under power this airflow over and above your airspeed increases rudder and/or elevator authority. As soon as throttle is pulled to idle, three things happen: the nose drops, airspeed increases, rudder and/or elevator authority reduces.

In my Warrior I can feel the irony. Pull power and it feels like someone gave you a gentle forward shove.

Another Issue with pulling power is, you have established a nice more or less stabilized approach on final. When you are assured of the runway, you pull power. This trashes your stabilized approach on short final.

The solutions? Be ready for what happens when you pull power. Or, land with power (difficult on a shorter runway). And/or make adjustments to your final approach to accommodate pulling power sooner, giving yourself enough time to reestablish a stabilized approach.

As with all things aviation, practice, practice, practice.
 
TheGolfPilot said:
Everyone I have ever flown with who sucks at landings does one of two things. 1. They blindly pull back until the plane slams into the ground or 2. they do the "sampling" technique with 0 finese. Both result in the airplane going up before it goes down. Go find a long runway and do a couple landings where you don't reduce the power until you are on the ground. After 1-2 good landings reduce the power a little bit at the threshold, keep doing that until you are able to make full power off landings. The pull power, nose drops phenomenon overwhelms people. Introducing it slowly while acclimate them to proper "flaring" and "sampling". Or just keep doing landings until one day you get "it".
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Keeping power in until you touch down is a crutch that quickly becomes a bad habit. We're not flying airliners here. It uses up a lot of runway, limiting your trips to big places only and presenting real risk if you have an engine failure. If one cuts the power on short final, one needs to hold the nose up so it doesn't drop. You want the thing to slow down; you sure don't want to arrive in ground effect at approach speed. That's just a fear of stalling and it offers opportunities for ballooning and running out of airspeed at 20 feet, or wheelbarrowing when the pilot forces the airplane on at high speed and ending up busting the airplane off the side of the runway when it groundloops (wheelbarrowing can easily groundloop a trike), or running off the runway's end, or blowing tires trying to stop the thing with brakes when the speed means there's still lift and little weight on the mains.

Primacy is one of the Seven Learning Factors. It means that first things learned are the most strongly implanted and very hard to shake off and relearn if the wrong thing was taught. A student should see and learn the right technique first time and every time. It comes a lot easier that way. Crutches end up being lifetime habits because they were learned first. Too many instructors are ignoring this stuff.

From the Canadian Flight Instructor guide:

PRIMACY - Present new knowledge or skills correctly the first time. (Teach it right the first time.)

(a) When students are presented with new knowledge or skills, the first impression received is almost unshakeable. This means that what you teach must be correct the first time. Students may forget the details of lessons, but will retain an overall image of the skill or knowledge for a long time. Frequently you will be required to perform manoeuvres in the aircraft before a student has had the necessary background training. You must perform those manoeuvres correctly or the student may imitate any errors you make. For example, before the exercise on cross-wind landings, you and your student are required to land in a cross-wind. Any poor example shown at this time would have to be "unlearned" when the exercise came up in a subsequent lesson.

https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviat...5494.htm#part-i-learning-and-learning-factors
 
Dan Thomas said:
Keeping power in until you touch down is a crutch that quickly becomes a bad habit. We're not flying airliners here. It uses up a lot of runway, limiting your trips to big places only and presenting real risk if you have an engine failure. If one cuts the power on short final, one needs to hold the nose up so it doesn't drop. You want the thing to slow down; you sure don't want to arrive in ground effect at approach speed. That's just a fear of stalling and it offers opportunities for ballooning and running out of airspeed at 20 feet, or wheelbarrowing when the pilot forces the airplane on at high speed and ending up busting the airplane off the side of the runway when it groundloops (wheelbarrowing can easily groundloop a trike), or running off the runway's end, or blowing tires trying to stop the thing with brakes when the speed means there's still lift and little weight on the mains.

Primacy is one of the Seven Learning Factors. It means that first things learned are the most strongly implanted and very hard to shake off and relearn if the wrong thing was taught. A student should see and learn the right technique first time and every time. It comes a lot easier that way. Crutches end up being lifetime habits because they were learned first. Too many instructors are ignoring this stuff.

From the Canadian Flight Instructor guide:

PRIMACY - Present new knowledge or skills correctly the first time. (Teach it right the first time.)

(a) When students are presented with new knowledge or skills, the first impression received is almost unshakeable. This means that what you teach must be correct the first time. Students may forget the details of lessons, but will retain an overall image of the skill or knowledge for a long time. Frequently you will be required to perform manoeuvres in the aircraft before a student has had the necessary background training. You must perform those manoeuvres correctly or the student may imitate any errors you make. For example, before the exercise on cross-wind landings, you and your student are required to land in a cross-wind. Any poor example shown at this time would have to be "unlearned" when the exercise came up in a subsequent lesson.

https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviat...5494.htm#part-i-learning-and-learning-factors
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I didn't say get into the habit of power on landings all the time. This is a one day event. Slowly introduce a greater reduction of power over the course of 10-12 landings. Another great way to practice this to have the student fly into ground effect and have them tap the left or right main gear on the runway then go back into ground effect. My instructor would have me tap mains down 3-4 times over the course of a 7000ft runway then go around. This was especially useful in crosswind enviornments.
 
Not sure why someone would carry power on final in a trainer... Should be power off from abeam the numbers to touchdown. If you are flying a HP airplane then maybe not, in pretty much ever GA plane there is no reason to carry power through base and final. Trim the plane on final for power off 1.3Vso MAX. Round your flare and keep eyes down the runway with glances to the front or side to judge height.
 
TheGolfPilot said:
I didn't say get into the habit of power on landings all the time. This is a one day event.
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It has the potential to become a habit real quick. Feed a stray dog just once and you have a problem.
 
TheGolfPilot said:
I didn't say get into the habit of power on landings all the time. This is a one day event. Slowly introduce a greater reduction of power over the course of 10-12 landings. Another great way to practice this to have the student fly into ground effect and have them tap the left or right main gear on the runway then go back into ground effect. My instructor would have me tap mains down 3-4 times over the course of a 7000ft runway then go around. This was especially useful in crosswind enviornments.
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It sounds to me like you had a real good instructor. You don't sound like a stray dog to me.:)
 
Ok, so quick update.

I've actually, sort of, got the hang of the flare. I think my main problem was rounding off too early and too much and then flaring too quickly.

I say I think, because it's the things I have changed doing and my instructor doesn't really mention them apart from flaring too quickly.

The problem is though, I still haven't soloed.

My instructor has said he thinks I need one more lesson for the last three lessons and that I won't be ready to do it next flight either.

:(
 
dtuuri said:
That makes sense to me if it's an actual short field and not just a simulated one because shorter fields are often narrower runways too. Narrow runways give you actual-size things to look at next to airplane, like blades of grass, weeds, runway lights. Can't see them at big airports if you land on the centerline.
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Actually the "short fields" I was referring to were all simulated (my school doesn't allow grass / short strips). Maybe it's connected to the previous posts about not looking down the runway but closer.
 
WDD said:
Actually the "short fields" I was referring to were all simulated (my school doesn't allow grass / short strips). Maybe it's connected to the previous posts about not looking down the runway but closer.
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Question for you, why do you choose to spend your hard earned money there?
 
As others mentioned you are probably to fast. Get some additional slow flight training for confidence and the fly down the runway slow can be very helpful. My favorite lunch stop has a 2200 foot runway where you can eat outside and watch the planes land. 75% are to fast at touchdown and it’s not unusual to see the nose wheel touch first or 3 point landings. Nosewheel aircraft should not be 3 pointed!
 
jg2000 said:
The problem is though, I still haven't soloed.

My instructor has said he thinks I need one more lesson for the last three lessons and that I won't be ready to do it next flight either.

:(
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Don't be in such a hurry to solo. You were just asking about how to land the plane! Your instructor will solo you when he/she feels you can land consistently.

My CFI made it clear to me that he needed to see three consistent landings in a row before he would solo me. I thought he was holding a pretty high standard...and he was, but not for the reasons I thought. He wanted to ensure I could land since it is the most dangerous phase of flight and he wanted to be sure I had good control of my airspeed in a stabilized final. I thought he just wanted to be sure I knew how to flare and land the plane. It wasn't about the flare at all... but being in control once you turned base to final, knowing how to slip the plane to lose altitude while controlling airspeed, knowing the sight picture... it was all of it put together.

Hang in there. Your CFI will solo you when he thinks you are ready.
 
JG, who has been doing all those landings, all the ones up to now? Have you been doing them and are they ok, by that I mean an 8 out of 10 min.? If so, you can do them on your solo, just keep the weather conditions the same. To me a 8 landing is in control and safe, it might not be the exact speed or the flare is a little less but safe. A 9 is just a slight 2 mph off or 90% flare made. Now even a 7 is safe, the problem there is no more margin for error or it becomes unsafe. If the weather is really good and I concentrate on the whole pattern and approach, I can make a 10 more often than not. But what I really care about is nothing less than an 8, and really a 9 is where I want to be.
After you solo, and almost all solos are safe, you'll look back on it as normal, wont matter so much how promptly you did. And there is a lot to learn post solo, like going cross country, etc.
My solo was at 12 hours, I remember I was ok at landing, but great at takeoffs so I thought I'll takeoff and see how it goes and it was fine. By the way we shared our north side of the pattern with the south side of Top Gun school.
 
What is your stall speed. Cross the fence at 1.3 times that with a bit of a nose down attitude. Transition to level and let it run out of elevator as you pull back onto the rear wheels.
 
jg2000 said:
Ok, so quick update.

The problem is though, I still haven't soloed.

:(
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That’s not a problem. Just keep flying and practicing. Don’t fixate on the solo. Most CFIs will want to see three consistently good landings before the solo. Your time will come. Sometimes I think that thinking too much about landing the plane sometimes gets in the way of landing the plane. Just keep flying until it’s down.
 
jg2000 said:
Hi everyone.

So I have been flying for over 20 hours now and have done about 80 landings.
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Eighty landings in 20 hours? What's that, about eight per hour for the last 10 hours? Seven and a half minutes to go around the pattern, rinse and repeat? If you fly at a small airport, nailing down the landing can take a little longer. Not spending enough time in the practice area nailing down fundamental aircraft control will do it too. Being stubborn about how you "think" it should be instead of how everybody implores you to think can hold you back too. The test I used for soloing a student on a 2200' runway with obstructions was 4 of the last five landings had to be made to a full stall (or nearly so) within the first third of the runway without any assistance from me. The one exception I allowed was a single go-around if the student recognized the need for it, but also without any suggestion or input from me. In other words, 100% safe and 80% consistent on the first try. The field length of 2200' is challenging when there are real obstructions and usually a crosswind. You can use that as a benchmark. If you would have trouble under those conditions meeting that level of consistency, your CFI is quite right, IMO.
 
At the time, we'd done about 5 hours in the training area and about 17 in the pattern. Perhaps you're right that I didn't have full control over all aspects.

I understand what everyone is saying about speed, but my CFI simply won't allow me to fly below 60 knots on final. This is the SOP at my school for all students (PPL/CPL etc) - It's in the SOP document and on all of our checklists.


Just a quick update, I did eventually solo! However, I promptly broke my wrist the day after. :/

Going to have another go at getting this PPL after the new year. This is looking like a lot more expensive and slower that I originally thought. :(

Am I right in saying that airlines don't look at the total hours required to do the PPL when hiring? It's not like 45 hours = excellent, 60 = average and 70 = terrible, don't hire.
Oh gosh, I am a worrier.
 
CharlieD3 said:
This may help... But pay close attention to the recommended speed, and know what it is for your aircraft.



Learned about it from POA, so it must be ONE of the right ways to do it
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Dang! I wish I’d known about that lateral expansion trick. I had a terrible time learning landings.
 
Rushie said:
Dang! I wish I’d known about that lateral expansion trick. I had a terrible time learning landings.
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I don't have my copy of Stick and Rudder handy, but I think Wolfgang Langeweische talked about this way back when.

Of course looking way down the runway centerline during the flare would be a novel experience for me...

upload_2019-12-7_20-1-13.png
 
jg2000 said:
I understand what everyone is saying about speed, but my CFI simply won't allow me to fly below 60 knots on final. This is the SOP at my school for all students (PPL/CPL etc) - It's in the SOP document and on all of our checklists.


Just a quick update, I did eventually solo! However, I promptly broke my wrist the day after. :/

Going to have another go at getting this PPL after the new year. This is looking like a lot more expensive and slower that I Originally though
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Congrats on the solo! Andy sorry to read about the wrist. Hopefully it heals quickly!

BTW, in a light sport, 60 knots on final is fine. Even 65 knots. You’re maintaining this speed with no power, so it’s all about a stabilized final and pitch. When over the fence you should be around 55 knots. Don’t flare too quickly. Look down the runway and pull back slowly on the stick until you’ve just about got the take off sight picture...then WAIT. Let the plane bleed off speed on its own, and you’ll feel yourself increasing back pressure on the stick to maintain that sight picture as the plane bleeds off more airspeed. Before you know it, you’ve landed! (Unless you’re midfield and your wheels haven’t touched, then I’d go-around!)

Heal that wrist!
 
jg2000 said:
Am I right in saying that airlines don't look at the total hours required to do the PPL when hiring? It's not like 45 hours = excellent, 60 = average and 70 = terrible, don't hire.
Oh gosh, I am a worrier.
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You are right! No worries about this.

-Skip
 
Just a quick update to thank everyone again.

My wrist healed and I got back to flying in mid January but with a new instructor.

And gosh, they are like night and day. I really like the old instructor personally, but the new one gives a hell of a lot more 'instruction'. My old instructor's idea was more practice and it will come which I don't think was the most helpful.

I soloed after 2.5 hours the second time which I was pretty happy with :p
Very happy that I didn't give up too.
 
Grum.Man said:
Not sure why someone would carry power on final in a trainer... Should be power off from abeam the numbers to touchdown. If you are flying a HP airplane then maybe not, in pretty much ever GA plane there is no reason to carry power through base and final. Trim the plane on final for power off 1.3Vso MAX. Round your flare and keep eyes down the runway with glances to the front or side to judge height.
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It appears that some are taking the "Keeping power in until you touch down" phrase out of context.
The reason for doing it is to learn how to land, and learn about ground effect, and how to fly in it.

My instructor had me do this, and his reasoning was this:
Normally when one is taught to land, they right off the bat do it with no power. Sure, this is a proper way to land, but for a student pilot who is just learning to land, things happen too quickly. With no power, you just don't have much time to experience the ground effect, and really feel it, and learn to use it.
When you practice a few landings with a bit of power, you stay in the ground effect longer, and can fly the plane for a bit. Then, as my instructor put it, it's now a game to keep the plane from landing. So, as the plane wants to settle down to the runway, you fight it, and pull back just enough to keep it level. This continues until the plane finally wins the battle, and you land.

Again, this is nothing more than a learning exercise, that shows the student what flying within ground effect is like. It gives them time to truly experience it.

With my instructor, we did it maybe three times, then it was doing it once with a little less power, then finally no power.

That one exercise helped me a great deal.
 
Stephen Shore said:
Alot of good advice. My only additional advice is to re-emphasize steady approach, hit your target speed over the numbers, and sight picture - look all the way down to the end of the runway once you get over the numbers.

Two things should always come as a surprise - when you release an arrow (I am in a tree hunting right now) and when your plane contacts the runway.

And don't ever feel bad or give up. Every pilot goes through a bad run on landings from time to time. And if all else fails - get you a Commander 114B - any idiot can land those planes! I know - I have one and their huge trailing link MLG is almost impossible to get a bad landing on. My other airplane is a Beech Sundowner with the rubber donuts for landing gear. A very humbling airplane to land to be sure!
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Did you get the Sundowner landings under control? Why such a challenge?
 
jg2000 said:
Hi everyone.

So I have been flying for over 20 hours now and have done about 80 landings.

I generally find I can do most things in the plane reasonably well. We've basically just done traffic patters and a few essential things out of the pattern like turns, climbing and descending, stalls.

I am flying at a controlled airport and have pretty much nailed the traffic pattern.

However, the landings are just disastrous. Every time I land I flare to early or too quickly and we balloon and slam down on the runway. I know when the plane balloons quite a lot to level the nose and then flare when it descends again, but

My CFI just says I need more practise to nail the landings, but it feels like I am not making any improvement.

I usually fly once or sometimes twice a week so it's not like I am forgetting lots. Not sure if the airport helps. The traffic pattern is fairly large and it's a busy field with a bit of commercial traffic which sometimes means that I don't do that many touch and goes in the hour. It has a huge 8000 feet runway though.

Any suggestions on how to master the flare and improve? I feel like I am just stuck at this stage and will never solo.
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Step 1) Find an aircraft with AoA or install

Step 2) Trim for an "on-speed" condition

Step 3) Maintain "on-speed" until earth impact at intended point of landing

Flaring is overrated....
 
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