Strobes

James331 said:
According to that they would have me taxi by the flight line at 0100 with my strobes blasting away, that ain't going to happen.



I do recall something in there that said "unless the PIC deems it unsafe" or something like that.
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That would be the 91.13 reference clearly called out in the quoted Reg.
 
James331 said:
Last I checked the AIM isn't regulatory.



I've approached fields with multiple targets, just students taxing and sitting around with their xpdr on
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So? You're saying your display technology is poor at representing multiple targets doing normal things? :)
 
Jay Honeck said:
It's funny -- I see strobes on the ground on every flight, and I've never considered it anything but SOP.

Why would blinking lights be "rude" in the daytime?
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Jay, you're forgetting that some people think it's rude to say 'howdy!' too early in the morning. I think it's a regional thing ...

Like the Steve Martin movie 'my blue heaven' where he's a relocated New Yorker crime witness to a small midwest town. Some guy in the grocery store tells him 'hi! how are you?' and Steve replies "yeah, **** you!" :lol:


steve-martin-myblueheaven-4.jpg
 
On. I like being seen. If I think it's causing problems, I turn them off. The 310 has LED wingtip and tail stringer nav/strobes, and LED nacelle landing lights on a wig-wag.
 
denverpilot said:
So? You're saying your display technology is poor at representing multiple targets doing normal things? :)
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Not my plane, company plane, and it's just showing what other planes are sending.
 
I have no beacon.
My single, tail-mounted strobe is on if the fan is turning.

FWIW, I've never been blinded or bothered by strobes in daylight.
 
JoeSelch said:
I have no beacon.
My single, tail-mounted strobe is on if the fan is turning.

FWIW, I've never been blinded or bothered by strobes in daylight.
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True, strobes won't cause a issue during day ops, the problem is when you have a different procedure for day and night, especially when you don't fly that much at night.

If you do the exact same thing during day and night, you less likely to forget to kill the strobes at night.

Most working planes will turn their lights on and off the same regardless of the position of the sun (instrument and cabin lights excluded :wink2: ).
 
James331 said:
Most working planes will turn their lights on and off the same regardless of the position of the sun (instrument and cabin lights excluded :wink2: ).
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Our checklist on 135 for lights was "as required".
 
Funny, any USN/USMC plane captain will lose their mind if your strobes aren't on the moment the first engine is online. What do the FARs actually say?
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Our checklist on 135 for lights was "as required".
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And what did your check airman have you do after you were down, reset trim, xpdr strobes and landing lights off clear the runway, heats off, etc.
 
txflyer said:
See, that's the funny thing to me because nobody's strobes have ever bothered me on a clear day. Night yes, cloudy, yes, but sunny? No.

It's like a welder Ron, don't look at it. ;)
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Exactly, Day VFR conditions I have to be looking towards a strobe to notice, and in daylight I don't find them bothersome at all.:dunno: Night time however the strobes don't come on until after the gear comes up, but I run a beacon or red strobe with the master from start up to shut down, day or night. Legally required or not, if you don't it's a liability trap.
 
Can someone cite the regulation that says they need to be on at all like some are suggesting? I could have built my sonex with no lights and still flew day vfr legally.

Keith
 
kmacht said:
Can someone cite the regulation that says they need to be on at all like some are suggesting? I could have built my sonex with no lights and still flew day vfr legally.

Keith
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§91.209 Aircraft lights:

No person may:

(a) During the period from sunset to sunrise (or, in Alaska, during the period a prominent unlighted object cannot be seen from a distance of 3 statute miles or the sun is more than 6 degrees below the horizon)—

(1) Operate an aircraft unless it has lighted position lights;

(2) Park or move an aircraft in, or in dangerous proximity to, a night flight operations area of an airport unless the aircraft—

(i) Is clearly illuminated;

(ii) Has lighted position lights; or

(iii) is in an area that is marked by obstruction lights;

(3) Anchor an aircraft unless the aircraft—

(i) Has lighted anchor lights; or

(ii) Is in an area where anchor lights are not required on vessels; or

(b) Operate an aircraft that is equipped with an anticollision light system, unless it has lighted anticollision lights. However, the anticollision lights need not be lighted when the pilot-in-command determines that, because of operating conditions, it would be in the interest of safety to turn the lights off.

(Bold and italicized mine)
 
I would also hope there is a FAR somewhere that requires an aircraft with an electrical system to have a beacon.
 
James331 said:
And what did your check airman have you do after you were down, reset trim, xpdr strobes and landing lights off clear the runway, heats off, etc.
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"As required".

He didn't care.
 
"91.205

(11) For small civil airplanes certificated after March 11, 1996, in accordance with part 23 of this chapter, an approved aviation red or aviation white anticollision light system. In the event of failure of any light of the anticollision light system, operation of the aircraft may continue to a location where repairs or replacement can be made."
 
As a ramp guy, I don't think I'd ever say the phrase "Man, I wish I didn't see those bright flashing lights on the plane that is starting up and moving around the ramp".

Occasionally annoying? Maybe, but I'll take all the warning I can get with something that can kill me. I can also direct people (skydive customers etc) and vehicles around aircraft who have their lights on because I know what that means. The non-pilots can also probably guess that a plane with lights on is either about to start or is about to move too.

And as a pilot, of course I can tell when they are going to start and recognize the danger of a plane taxiing on the ramp when I'm out there. Even if they don't yell clear, I know they will be starting soon because the chocks are gone and the plane isn't tied down and they just closed the door.

But if you were too occupied with work or too busy to notice them saunter across the ramp and pre-flight, the reflections of flashing lights off of my fuel truck or the plane that I'm fueling just give me more awareness and let me know that they're there. The engine noise almost always tips me off of course, but the fuel truck is old and cranky and loud :dunno:

I say it's just another warning for something that can be dangerous, just don't walk into the light!
 
The only time strobes annoy me is when they are on a plane holding short at an airport with minimal lighting and I'm on short final.
 
timwinters said:
I would also hope there is a FAR somewhere that requires an aircraft with an electrical system to have a beacon.
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:sigh: I would hope it wouldn't be necessary to make such a regulation, I would hope that people would just take that upon themselves as common sense.:(
 
At night, my strobes are off for ground ops whenever there is other traffic around. Otherwise I turn them on when I'm about to start moving, and off when I come to a permanent stop.

An old CFI of mine interpreted 91.209 (b) to mean that if ANY anticollision lights are installed they must ALL be on during all operations. IOW, if you have a beacon and strobes installed, the beacon is not enough, the strobes need to be lit too. I can't see any way to read the paragraph so that it says that, in fact it seems to be carefully worded so as NOT to say that. If they meant that, it would have been much easier to say:

(b) Operate an aircraft that is equipped with an anticollision light system, unless the anticollision lights are lighted.

Then again, it's the government, so IDK. :dunno:
 
FastEddieB said:
I was surprised when it was pointed out that my new-to-me demo Cirrus had zero lights anywhere on the tail.

The position lights are red or green to the front and white to the rear, taking the place of a tail position light. I did not know that was even legal.
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That's the way the Piper PA-28, PA-32 and PA-34 have been since the 1983 model year. No lights on the tail, other than sometimes an optional red strobe supplementing the white strobes on the wingtips.
 
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Yep, position lights are legal so long as they are all visible within their respective 112.5°/135° arcs.
 
Henning said:
:sigh: I would hope it wouldn't be necessary to make such a regulation, I would hope that people would just take that upon themselves as common sense.:(
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Why? I just removed the tail beacon and belly beacon from the 310, replaced with Whelen LEDs in the tips and the tail. The result is a much more visible aircraft with reduced drag.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Why? I just removed the tail beacon and belly beacon from the 310, replaced with Whelen LEDs in the tips and the tail. The result is a much more visible aircraft with reduced drag.
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That's fine, I wasn't really restricting it to physical 'rotating beacons', but rather in general to 'anti collision light(s)'. If you get an electric system and decide to install more than the simplest beacon you can get cheap on eBay, that's fine by me. But I would expect that one of the reasons one would have in installing an electric system would be the ability to have some form of anti collision lighting. There is an element of enlightened self intrest involved that I would hope would supersede the requirement for legislation. But sadly that's probably not true.:(
 
Henning said:
That's fine, I wasn't really restricting it to physical 'rotating beacons', but rather in general to 'anti collision light(s)'. If you get an electric system and decide to install more than the simplest beacon you can get cheap on eBay, that's fine by me. But I would expect that one of the reasons one would have in installing an electric system would be the ability to have some form of anti collision lighting. There is an element of enlightened self intrest involved that I would hope would supersede the requirement for legislation. But sadly that's probably not true.:(
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23.1397 and 23.1401 lighting ends up being required for night and/or IFR operations, which therefore means that virtually every airplane with an electrical system has lighting that meets the requirements. You can legally remove them, but then you're restricted to day VFR.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
23.1397 and 23.1401 lighting ends up being required for night and/or IFR operations, which therefore means that virtually every airplane with an electrical system has lighting that meets the requirements. You can legally remove them, but then you're restricted to day VFR.
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Exactly, as I was saying, I hope that anyone with an electric system would be smart enough to add anti collision lights, because it requires a special level of stupid not to.
 
azure said:
At night, my strobes are off for ground ops whenever there is other traffic around. Otherwise I turn them on when I'm about to start moving, and off when I come to a permanent stop.



An old CFI of mine interpreted 91.209 (b) to mean that if ANY anticollision lights are installed they must ALL be on during all operations. IOW, if you have a beacon and strobes installed, the beacon is not enough, the strobes need to be lit too. I can't see any way to read the paragraph so that it says that, in fact it seems to be carefully worded so as NOT to say that. If they meant that, it would have been much easier to say:



(b) Operate an aircraft that is equipped with an anticollision light system, unless the anticollision lights are lighted.



Then again, it's the government, so IDK. :dunno:
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Look further up in the thread. Don't have to worry about your old CFI anymore. The Chief Counsel agreed and has decreed it so, without NPRM nor any input from the people actually tasked with writing FAA laws, as always.

Henning said:
Exactly, as I was saying, I hope that anyone with an electric system would be smart enough to add anti collision lights, because it requires a special level of stupid not to.
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Not many crop dusters have them. Most are certified in the Restricted Category for various reasons, including but not limited to, lack of lights of any sort. Day VFR ops only. Did any you flew have them?
 
denverpilot said:
Not many crop dusters have them. Most are certified in the Restricted Category for various reasons, including but not limited to, lack of lights of any sort. Day VFR ops only. Did any you flew have them?
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Never seen or flown one that DIDNT have nav lights, beacon, and landing lights at least. Most of the sprayers I know did a certain amount of night ops.

Is your experience different?
 
All the new thrush planes I've seen have nav, strobes, drop down landing/field lights, etc.

Heck even the old Pawnees had a beacon, nav and landing lights as I recall, now if they still work or not..
 
MauleSkinner said:
Never seen or flown one that DIDNT have nav lights, beacon, and landing lights at least. Most of the sprayers I know did a certain amount of night ops.



Is your experience different?
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Seen a lot of folks hurrying to land before it got dark. Couldn't tell ya why they don't have any lights on the aircraft but they don't.

Henning's assertion was that anyone dining so would be crazy for not having them, and yet here's a bunch of commercial ops folks flying around regularly without them.

Shouldn't they know better? LOL.
 
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