Strange Hold Short lines

[bluesky74656]

Is it me, or do these hold short lines not make any sense. This is at BKL in Cleveland. There are parallel runways, one shorter than the other. The hold short lines to the longer runway past the point that the shorter parallel runway ends are confusing.



This is a close up of the lines. I don’t know what the set closest to the runway is asking you to hold short of, and it seems odd that they would prevent you from clearing the runway.



There’s also this, just past the last crossing taxiway for the short runway is another hold short line nowhere near the end of the long runway. I can’t imagine actually holding short of the long runway this far from its end, especially since it’s not marked as being for any particular runway.



What are all these extra lines for?

 

[mscard88]

Hold short lines. Plain and simple. The runways may be closer together (parallel) than normal which seems to be the case in your first pic. I've flown into there many times years ago and I don't recall exactly how close they are, but it seems they were closer than normal. Some airport layouts just have different configurations, not a big deal really.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I would expect the one on the parallel taxiway just short of the 24L threshold to be a single bar taxiway hold short, but the double line is sometimes used. Other than that they make sense. They are all protecting the runways or the runway approach paths from incursions.

 

[bluesky74656]

Hold short lines. Plain and simple. The runways may be closer together (parallel) than normal which seems to be the case in your first pic. I've flown into there many times years ago and I don't recall exactly how close they are, but it seems they were closer than normal. Some airport layouts just have different configurations, not a big deal really.

I’m familiar with the hold short lines between the runways. They make sense: one gets you clear of the long one, one keeps you short of the short one. That’s actually what confused me: they were doing construction and closed most of the crossing taxiways and had me take it all the way down to the end. I stopped between the two hold short lines as I normally do before I realized it didn’t make any sense. Here’s a more zoomed out picture so you can see the normal hold short lines between the runways in context.

 

[Unit74]

Taxiway is too close on 24L. Does one on 24R happened to be an ILS hold short line?

 

[mscard88]

Seems from my experience there that 24R was arrivals and 24L used for departures. Just an old airport so they do the best they can do with it.

 

[mscard88]

Taxiway is too close on 24L. Does one on 24R happened to be an ILS hold short line?

No, not an ILS critical line.

 

[bluesky74656]

Seems from my experience there that 24R was arrivals and 24L used for departures. Just an old airport so they do the best they can do with it.

Flip that and you’re right. I’ve been based here for years and never departed from 24R, which is why I’ve never seen this before. I generally don’t make the first turn off landing on 24R since I park at the other end.

 

[mscard88]

Flip that and you’re right. I’ve been based here for years and never departed from 24R, which is why I’ve never seen this before. I generally don’t make the first turn off landing on 24R since I park at the other end.

Probably been 5-6 years since I've been there. Thanks for the clarification. Are you XJT?

 

[bluesky74656]

Probably been 5-6 years since I've been there. Thanks for the clarification. Are you XJT?

No, not professional. My club has planes there.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I’m familiar with the hold short lines between the runways. They make sense: one gets you clear of the long one, one keeps you short of the short one. That’s actually what confused me: they were doing construction and closed most of the crossing taxiways and had me take it all the way down to the end. I stopped between the two hold short lines as I normally do before I realized it didn’t make any sense. Here’s a more zoomed out picture so you can see the normal hold short lines between the runways in context.

That's not in context. Context is including 24L so you can see it's protecting the approach path. Coming in to land on 24L, do you really want to see an aircraft taxi right under you? I guess they could have put it closer to 24L (on the other side of the 24R hold line) but I guess don't see the complete lack of sense you do.

 

[midwestpa24]

That's not in context. Context is including 24L so you can see it's protecting the approach path. Coming in to land on 24L, do you really want to see an aircraft taxi right under you? I guess they could have put it closer to 24L (on the other side of the 24R hold line) but I guess don't see the complete lack of sense you do.

View attachment 64755

You are correct here. The runway safety area extends 1000 feet from the runway threshold, as well as an aircraft on that taxiway would extend vertically into the Part 77 protected airspace on the end of the runway.

Older airports are prone to unusual airfield layouts. With the current standards, they would never build an airport like that. It is likely that if the FAA ever funded a reconstruction of that runway, they would require it to be moved.

 

[bluesky74656]

That's not in context. Context is including 24L so you can see it's protecting the approach path. Coming in to land on 24L, do you really want to see an aircraft taxi right under you? I guess they could have put it closer to 24L (on the other side of the 24R hold line) but I guess don't see the complete lack of sense you do.

View attachment 64755

That makes sense conceptually. Operationally, though, I’m still confused. There’s no implicit prohibition on crossing the approach path, so absent an explicit restriction I would pull right up into that restricted space. And I’m not sure how the controller would phrase an explicit restriction. There’s no runway there, so he couldn’t just say hold short of 24L, and the hold short line is unlabeled. I guess he could just in plain English say to hold short of the approach area for 24L, but if you weren’t familiar with the airport that could be confusing, especially if given on the rollout before you exited the runway which is the only time the restriction could be given.

Luckily in normal operations this would almost never come up. It just happened to because of the maintenance they were doing on the other taxiways.

 

[midwestpa24]

In this photo you can see there is a sign adjacent to the hold short sign. That sign probably looks like the one shown below. There really should be a Surface Painted Hold Position Sign as well, but I can't find anywhere that specifically requires it for an approach hold.

 

[midwestpa24]

That makes sense conceptually. Operationally, though, I’m still confused. There’s no implicit prohibition on crossing the approach path, so absent an explicit restriction I would pull right up into that restricted space. And I’m not sure how the controller would phrase an explicit restriction.

The controller would say, "Hold Short of the 24L Approach".

 

[JDACO]

Those are weird.

 

[bluesky74656]

In this photo you can see there is a sign adjacent to the hold short sign. That sign probably looks like the one shown below. There really should be a Surface Painted Hold Position Sign as well, but I can't find anywhere that specifically requires it for an approach hold.

I don’t recall seeing an approach sign next to it; the only sign I remember was the taxiway identifier. But, the sign is on the far side of what was a fairly wide taxiway, and I was trying to clear quickly for traffic behind me, so it’s possible it was there and I just missed it. I’ll have to keep an eye out the next time I’m out there.

 

[SkyDog58]

That's not in context. Context is including 24L so you can see it's protecting the approach path. Coming in to land on 24L, do you really want to see an aircraft taxi right under you? I guess they could have put it closer to 24L (on the other side of the 24R hold line) but I guess don't see the complete lack of sense you do.

View attachment 64755

I see it the same way as you do Mark.

 

[kkoran]

You are required to hold short of approach hold lines only if instructed to do so, e.g., "Hold short Rwy 24L approach." You are required to hold short of runway hold lines unless specifically cleared to cross the runway.

There is an initiative to change approach hold markings to the ones used for ILS hold since they also only apply if you are instructed to hold short of them.