Stinson 108-3 revisited

Tom-D

Tom-D

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Tom-D
Yesterday I was call to help shorten and brake hydraulic line to the new Cleveland brake up-grade, and to do the 337s for installing the Petersen auto fuel and tire size increase to 8:50s STCs. OBTW the cleveland brake kit is an authorized replacement part= no STC.

Getting the research completed, I find that the 108 has been upgraded to a 165 horse Franklin but came from the factory as a 150 horse, with light weight cases which has a case cracking AD.
So now I've got to find the paper work to up grade to the 165, and low and behold Univair has added that to the TCDS as an alternate engine, " way to go" :) next, to see if the light weight cases are still on the engine, and find they are not by part number.

Next to see the entry to do this engine swap.... nothing nada. but I do find that there is a Work order by a CRS in Or. that did a complete overhaul in 2-22-99, with a complete list of parts that were replaced. and engine TT entered on the W/O. that time matches the last entry in the old log, So,,,, I found that the engine was overhaul but never installed on the aircraft. the aircraft simply had the engine installed then placed in storage. and no entry to return it to service as tested and found to be airworthy. IAW FAR 43.2.

So as the IA doing the annual, what would you do?
 
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Tom-D said:
So as the IA doing the annual, what would you do?
Click to expand...

Swap S/N? :D :nono:

Is the stored engine available for installation? If so, install the engine and complete inspection with that engine.

Or, can an entire engine be treated as yellow tagged assy?

If stored engine not available for installation, contact mechanic who made the most recent log book entry to discuss pertinent details.

At what point does the new IA (you) sort this out through the FSDO?
 
Richard said:
Swap S/N? :D :nono:

Is the stored engine available for installation? If so, install the engine and complete inspection with that engine.

Or, can an entire engine be treated as yellow tagged assy?

If stored engine not available for installation, contact mechanic who made the most recent log book entry to discuss pertinent details.

At what point does the new IA (you) sort this out through the FSDO?
Click to expand...

The engine is installed, and the new owner bought it that way, it has been on since 1999. (as far as I know)
 
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Richard said:
At what point does the new IA (you) sort this out through the FSDO?
Click to expand...

I don't, what would you ask them to do? every one who ever touched a wrench to this aircraft is dead or gone a different way.

Fun things these antiques :)
 
I'd sign the annual with someone else's credentials.

Alternately, advise the customer of the paperwork snafu, and give him an estimate to bring it fully into compliance(as best you understand it), then document everything in all logs from the moment you touched it. Then sign it off with your credentials.

By everything, I mean down to the air in the tires, and the parts you did NOT visit during the annual; i.e. "Fabric dope not chemically tested for certification standards. Metallurgy of rudder pedals not verified IAW type cert." etc.
 
Sign the books ,with the notation ,inspected the aircraft and engine( owner supplied part)
 
Tom-D said:
I don't, what would you ask them to do? every one who ever touched a wrench to this aircraft is dead or gone a different way.

Fun things these antiques :)
Click to expand...

Because it seems this is a problem of paperwork. Who else enjoys chasing paper than the Feds?

BTW: in you 1st post I read it as the engine was installed on the airframe then removed to be stored (pickled).

So Tom, are you now going to complete the paper trail before you even turn a wrench? Like Docmirror suggests, I'd rather the owner take that job. Then, the IA merely reviews the required docs and logbooks.
 
Tom-D said:
Yesterday I was call to help shorten and brake hydraulic line to the new Cleveland brake up-grade, and to do the 337s for installing the Petersen auto fuel and tire size increase to 8:50s STCs. OBTW the cleveland brake kit is an authorized replacement part= no STC.

Getting the research completed, I find that the 108 has been upgraded to a 165 horse Franklin but came from the factory as a 150 horse, with light weight cases which has a case cracking AD.
So now I've got to find the paper work to up grade to the 165, and low and behold Univair has added that to the TCDS as an alternate engine, " way to go" :) next, to see if the light weight cases are still on the engine, and find they are not by part number.

Next to see the entry to do this engine swap.... nothing nada. but I do find that there is a Work order by a CRS in Or. that did a complete overhaul in 2-22-99, with a complete list of parts that were replaced. and engine TT entered on the W/O. that time matches the last entry in the old log, So,,,, I found that the engine was overhaul but never installed on the aircraft. the aircraft simply had the engine installed then placed in storage. and no entry to return it to service as tested and found to be airworthy. IAW FAR 43.2.

So as the IA doing the annual, what would you do?
Click to expand...

If the plane has not operated since the installation, there isn't a violation of anything yet right? The engine itself is properly documented as I read it right? The only question of documentation here is the installation and return to service, correct?

If all that is correct, I would inspect and assure the installation to whatever level you determine you need to approve it for return to service under the same authority that you can take responsibility for an apprentice or owners work. Then proceed with the testing to RTS.

In the end it needs to have the installation documented, and it looks like it's going to happen with your signature. So that means you do what you feel is required whether that is to uninstall, inspect everything, and reinstall it, or just give it a good visual and shake. Your signature, your determination.
 
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Now my experience was on a 108-1, that said I never heard of a -3 with a 150hp, I recall them all being 165s.
 
Ok, lets look at this piece by piece.

Tom-D said:
Yesterday I was call to help shorten and brake hydraulic line to the new Cleveland brake up-grade, and to do the 337s for installing the Petersen auto fuel and tire size increase to 8:50s STCs. OBTW the cleveland brake kit is an authorized replacement part= no STC.
Click to expand...

Is this all you were asked to do? Do the work, sign it off.

Getting the research completed, I find that the 108 has been upgraded to a 165 horse Franklin but came from the factory as a 150 horse, with light weight cases which has a case cracking AD.
Click to expand...

Ok, but . . .

So now I've got to find the paper work to up grade to the 165, and low and behold Univair has added that to the TCDS as an alternate engine, " way to go" :) next, to see if the light weight cases are still on the engine, and find they are not by part number.
Click to expand...

So far, good to go. Right?

Next to see the entry to do this engine swap.... nothing nada. but I do find that there is a Work order by a CRS in Or. that did a complete overhaul in 2-22-99, with a complete list of parts that were replaced. and engine TT entered on the W/O. that time matches the last entry in the old log, So,,,, I found that the engine was overhaul but never installed on the aircraft. the aircraft simply had the engine installed then placed in storage. and no entry to return it to service as tested and found to be airworthy. IAW FAR 43.2.
Click to expand...

So as the IA doing the annual, what would you do?
Click to expand...

Wait a minute. Are you doing an annual, or just doing the work mentioned in the first paragraph?

As far as the engine swap goes, does the engine that is on the airframe now comply with the TCDS as amended by Univair? If so, I see that as a simple logbook entry. Same idea as when we put the Jake on my 190 in replacement of the Continental.

What am I missing?

In other words, I agree with Henning.
 
I would pull that Franklin out and install a O-470 Continental, and make a legitimate bush plane.
 
when I looked at the Stinson line since they seemed so cheap, I investigated the engine swap STC and when I saw the prices for just the paperwork -- it all made sense. I think it was $12k for a piece of paper and some instructions before ever turning a wrench. Maybe why we never see any Stinsons with alternate engines.
 
kgruber said:
I would pull that Franklin out and install a O-470 Continental, and make a legitimate bush plane.
Click to expand...

I did just fine with my -1 and 150hp, just have to think ahead and not rely on power to get yourself out of screw ups.

To the mechanic, do the customer a favor and have him get on the yahoo group and get some good advise on this stuff.

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Stinson/info
 
James331 said:
Now my experience was on a 108-1, that said I never heard of a -3 with a 150hp, I recall them all being 165s.
Click to expand...

The one I flew had the 165 standard,with an STC available for a pzl 200.
 
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From the information you've given us Tom it sounds to me as though everything is kosher, no need for any STC's or 337's for that matter. As an IA you could simply annual the aircraft documenting the alterations covered by the TCDS. I see no reason to contact the FAA about any of it.
 
It's obviuosly an unairworthy death trap. I will be by with a check from my Nigerian uncle for $200,000usd. I will take the plane for a museum and your customer can wire transfer me 150,000usd, thus keeping 50,000 for himself.:D

Ok,
Sounds like a fun paperwork project. Enjoy.
 
Inspect the airframe, the engine and installation, and sign off if airworthy.
 
I'm with James. Pretty sure all 108-3's had the 165 engine. There's a real nice yellow one at Arlington out on the flightline.
 
I'm not sure I would want to know that piece of information as the IAsigning it off looking at what he's looking at becauses it raises questions the answer to which can cause only problems with no chance of benefit. :lol:
 
Richard said:
Because it seems this is a problem of paperwork. Who else enjoys chasing paper than the Feds?

BTW: in you 1st post I read it as the engine was installed on the airframe then removed to be stored (pickled).

So Tom, are you now going to complete the paper trail before you even turn a wrench? Like Docmirror suggests, I'd rather the owner take that job. Then, the IA merely reviews the required docs and logbooks.
Click to expand...

Where did I say removed?
 
James331 said:
Now my experience was on a 108-1, that said I never heard of a -3 with a 150hp, I recall them all being 165s.
Click to expand...

This is true, but when a 108-1 is given a engine upgrade to 165 horse what does it become?
 
Henning said:
If the plane has not operated since the installation, there isn't a violation of anything yet right?
Right
The engine itself is properly documented as I read it right?

There is no entry in any engine logs as to what was done by the CRS in Or. just what's writen in the work order, is that all that is needed?

The only question of documentation here is the installation and return to service, correct? nope we are missing the basic entry in the logs that say what was done by the CRS.

If all that is correct, I would inspect and assure the installation to whatever level you determine you need to approve it for return to service under the same authority that you can take responsibility for an apprentice or owners work. Then proceed with the testing to RTS. Would you do that with out watching the engine being put together?

In the end it needs to have the installation documented, and it looks like it's going to happen with your signature. So that means you do what you feel is required whether that is to uninstall, inspect everything, and reinstall it, or just give it a good visual and shake. Your signature, your determination.
Click to expand...

That part you got right.
 
kgruber said:
I would pull that Franklin out

so would I,

and install a O-470 Continental, and make a legitimate bush plane.
Click to expand...
Oh No, the 0-470 is way to heavy. then you couldn't do short field landings.

do the TCM IO-360 210 horse power, lighter than the Franklin and much lighter than the 0-470. and there is an STC.
 
Henning said:
Are any of the STCs transferable?
Click to expand...

All STC's are buyable and placed on any aircraft that they apply to.

your question says that you don't know how STCs are applied. They are issued by the holder to a specific N number. then applied to the N number by a 337 installing the stc as per instructions.
 
Tom-D said:
This is true, but when a 108-1 is given a engine upgrade to 165 horse what does it become?
Click to expand...

Providing it is a Franklin 6A4-165-B3 or 6A4-165-B4 engine it remains a 108-1 with optional engine IAW item #111 in TCDS A-767 and Service Letter 74A.

Seems pretty straight forward to me.
 
Silvaire said:
From the information you've given us Tom it sounds to me as though everything is kosher, no need for any STC's or 337's for that matter. As an IA you could simply annual the aircraft documenting the alterations covered by the TCDS. I see no reason to contact the FAA about any of it.
Click to expand...

Neither do I. this is a log book lesson on how to bring an old aircraft that has sat for a long time back into compliance and return it to service. with the logs missing the entries it should have had.
This Stinson was one hell of a barn find, that Franklin is worth more than he paid for the whole aircraft and the up grades added. he's about $10k into a $35k aircraft.
 
kgruber said:
Is that why you bought a 185?
Click to expand...

It wasn't a wheels to wheels performance issue at all.

It came down to wanting a good IFR platform, and the cost to rig the VFR Stinson as a proper /G IFR plane

I also wanted amphibs and putting them on the Stinson would have made a performance issue, where on wheels she did just fine, also I don't have any float rigging on the plane.

So IFR and Amphibs were the reason.


On wheels the 150hp did just fine for me, grass, beaches, short strips, flew across the country, totally OK.

Now if you MUST do a engine conversion I'd go with the 220HP franklin, they are VERY smooth engines and a Stinson just isn't a Stinson without being a rag wing frank powered plane. The biggest benifit I would have felt from the conversion on mine would have been cruise speed, but again, it wasn't thst big of a deal.
 
Silvaire said:
Providing it is a Franklin 6A4-165-B3 or 6A4-165-B4 engine it remains a 108-1 with optional engine IAW item #111 in TCDS A-767 and Service Letter 74A.

Seems pretty straight forward to me.
Click to expand...

Yep that's correct, my mistake to post it as a -3.
 
James331 said:
Now if you MUST do a engine conversion I'd go with the 220HP franklin, they are VERY smooth engines and a Stinson just isn't a Stinson without being a rag wing frank powered plane. The biggest benifit I would have felt from the conversion on mine would have been cruise speed, but again, it wasn't thst big of a deal.
Click to expand...

You realize that the New error PZL Franklins are no longer made or supported.
 
Tom-D said:
This is true, but when a 108-1 is given a engine upgrade to 165 horse what does it become?
Click to expand...

It becomes a 108-1 with a 165 horse on it.

The 108-3 has the big tail on it. I don't think a 108-1 can become a 108-3 without a lot of work and paperwork.
 
Tom-D said:
All STC's are buyable and placed on any aircraft that they apply to.

your question says that you don't know how STCs are applied. They are issued by the holder to a specific N number. then applied to the N number by a 337 installing the stc as per instructions.
Click to expand...

N-number? Or air frame serial number?
 
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