Stick shift or auto?

[sba55]

Yeah...I don't think they're feathering the clutch/brake into a turn...

More like "ohmygod I'mgoingreallyfastandthereareothercarsallaroundandIdon'tknowwhereIam..!"

LOL I think that captures the thinking process of most drivers very accurately!!

Coming to think of it, I bet that pilots drive differently in general. I know my driving style has changed quite a lot from before when I didn't fly....

Well, I'm usually more interested in getting the best gas mileage, not the best acceleration, so a fast start ain't what I'm going for. If someone is touting both faster acceleration and better gas mileage as benefits of stick, they're thinking like aircraft owners with humongous gas tanks talking about great load carrying capacity and long range. You can only be using one or the other at a given time!

Couldn't you reprogram the computer controlling an automatic to give you whichever you wanted? I don't know that it would be possible to switch while in motion, though. And I'd guess you could say goodbye to your warranty.

Edit: I'm not saying that PG is saying that gas mileage is a benefit, the post just made me think of the comparison.

I don't think that manual vs. automatic makes a significant difference in gas mileage these days. I know that one of my cars, for example, is both slightly slower 0-60 and uses more fuel with a manual.

What does make a difference is good engine design. I usually get around 25 mpg, and I can get 32 mpg if I drive carefully and that's in a 414hp V8. Having driven a couple of slow and boring manual rental cars with 4 cyl engines that couldn't even get to 28 mpg, I'm fairly convinced that the choice of transmission is secondary to engine technology. GM/Ford/Chrysler is not exactly where innovation is at.

 

[Bill]

How many of you fellow manual shifters have jammed on the brakes in a rented or borrowed automatic with your left foot in an attempt to disengage the clutch?

I'm also wondering what reasons if any the rest of you have for preferring a stick? These days the sophisticated slushboxes can achieve virtually identical performance and economy as a manual tranny.

I also should admit that I may consider a dual clutch sequential shifter on a future car (with fixed paddles).

Yeah, I've accidently hit the brake pedal, especially the large ones on older American cars.

Reason to prefer stick? Nothing like the feel of a perfectly blipped downshift or an oh so smooth upshift. I had friends think my car was an automatic.

The new DSG from Audi/VW are wonderful, but there is something about stirring your own gears.

 

[Ddayle]

Driving two footed can be difficult to master.But even in a stick, brake & gas can be used simutainously for performance driving. In a race car it is common to ride the brake while gassing it.On the street I also cover the brake with my left while driving with my right.. I can do either. It is sort of like being able to rub your belly & pat your head at the dame time. Dave

 

[Bill]

Your parents were wise. I just got back from a wake. 21 year old we've known since age 8. Died about 100 yards from the parent's home in the wee hours of Xmas morning. Took a tree in the driver's side door,as our rain had just turned to ice, in a Toyota.

Ugh, sorry to hear

That Dodge was some truck!

It was a work truck. Vinyl bench seat, black rubber floors, no AC, AM radio, no power anything. Basic truck, tough and rugged.

 

[fgcason]

Are you sure?? Just a little touching of the peddle will put the brake lights on. I see it all the time.

I'm sure. My vehicles take 3/4" (jeep) and 1" (motorhome) of brake lever travel in order for the brake light to come on. Yes, I checked that visually at night by hand and looking to see if the brake lights come on. While driving, my foot is either barely touching the foot pad with zero lever travel or not in actual contact with the footpad. If the light comes on, it's either a mechanical/electrical failure or it's intentional.

I typed that message on an iPhone while driving at 75mph on the interstate. There was simply no way it would work without extreme annoyance. I've also messed with two feet driving in my previous vehicles. They simply aren't designed for it.
For example, in my sunfire, if you move your left foot to the brake that puts your left knee directly underneath teh steering wheel and severely degrades steering.

That's probably vehicle dependent or possibly technique dependent. At least for me, it's never been awkward or uncomfortable doing two foot in most vehicles unless the design precluded putting my foot on the brake lever.

Edit: Bill in the next post has it right for backing up in tight quarters or maneuvering near obstacles. Two footing it is about the only way to avoid hitting something or maintaining precise control sometimes. A friend and I backed her motorhome up a hill a while back with me outside putting blocks under the tire for ground clearance. Even with the blocks, we had under half an inch rear clearance most of the time. Move exactly 2 inches back and no further or less, stop, new block in place, move 1 inch further, pull the previously used block and put it behind the tire, move 5 inches, move a block, move half an inch to get the other block out, continue, etc etc etc for about 50 feet. Maneuvering in that tight of an area, single foot driving is totally impractical and extremely dangerous with me on my knees inches away from a slowly moving 5+ ton vehicle that's not far from toppling off the blocks toward me.

 

[Bill]

Driving two footed can be difficult to master.But even in a stick, brake & gas can be used simutainously for performance driving. In a race car it is common to ride the brake while gassing it.On the street I also cover the brake with my left while driving with my right.. I can do either. It is sort of like being able to rub your belly & pat your head at the dame time. Dave

I used to heel and toe if the car was set up for it. Difficult to get it right all the time, though.

I sometimes use two feet with the automatic, especially when trying to pull out quickly from a side street on a busy road. Much quicker to get the off the brake and on the gas with two feet.

Also backing in tight quarters, I use two feet, right foot gives a little gas, left foot modulates the brake as I back.

My Dad always drove two footed in an automatic but transitioned between autos and sticks all the time and never got confused. I learned two foot automatic driving by watching him as a kid.

 

[Ddayle]

Heel & toe is a another good skill. I just got new rubber on the back of the Mighty Maverick. That required a few hours of throttle mashing to eliminate any extra rubber nubbs on the treads. Sortof sanding them smoother on the asphalt. It is an automatic because I like winning. Dave

 

[gismo]

I notice a huge difference in acceleration. Top speed seems about the same, IME.

In the last couple Audis I've bought (2001 S4 and 2005 S4) the only advantage the manual had over the automatic WRT acceleration was the launch and you have to abuse the clutch to beat the auto.

 

[gismo]

I used to heel and toe if the car was set up for it. Difficult to get it right all the time, though.

I sometimes use two feet with the automatic, especially when trying to pull out quickly from a side street on a busy road. Much quicker to get the off the brake and on the gas with two feet.

Also backing in tight quarters, I use two feet, right foot gives a little gas, left foot modulates the brake as I back.

My Dad always drove two footed in an automatic but transitioned between autos and sticks all the time and never got confused. I learned two foot automatic driving by watching him as a kid.

If you really want to get your toes twisted try left foot braking with a manual transmission.

 

[Everskyward]

figured no one here on the internet ever wears out a clutch.

I also had no idea people were so analytical about their driving styles, but why am I surprised?

 

[Ted]

One thing I've never liked about an automatic, though, is that in the ones I've driven, you can't take advantage of an engine's torque, and instead rely on RPM's. It makes for a lot of unnecessary wear on both the engine (from the RPM's) and the transmission (from more frequent shifting) depending on how you drive and where you are. With the one I've got now, it's not too much of an issue; but with ones in the past, it used to make me cringe (my overly active imagination could hear the poor 4Runner crying).

I know that it's easy to perceive things being that way, but it's really not as bad as it seems (most of the time). The primary thing suffering is the transmission itself due to the heat being generated by slip in the torque converter. You could potentially argue a bit more wear on the engine due to extra load to feed that friction, but the higher RPMs are generally not actually that big of a deal, especially on modern engines. The things are balanced well enough that revs are fairly inconsequential on engine longevity. If anything, the advantage to higher revs for a given power output is reduced torsional vibrations and cylinder pressures.

Engines are pretty tolerant beasts. Honestly, the more I work with them (be they aircraft or automotive), the more impressed I am with just how tolerant they are. I try to be good to mine since they go through a lot, but in 300,000 miles I've only had one catastrophic engine failure - a thrown rod at 173,000 total miles on the engine with a rod knock for the previous 35,000 miles or so (it was an old clattery diesel - the sound was misdiagnosed as piston slap). The V12 in my '82 XJ-S had nothing much to show for the piston rings after about 170,000 total miles, including 40,000 miles of me beating the snot out of it on an almost daily basis. It still ran, made good oil pressure, and got good mileage.

We all have our driving styles and most people really are bad drivers. What's impressive is the fact that in spite of all these variations, cars do tend to hold up pretty well.

 

[Ted]

I also had no idea people were so analytical about their driving styles, but why am I surprised?

What amuses me is how pilots deal with their cars vs. normal people. Specifically, most of us pilots will gladly throw another pilot the keys to our cars, generally no questions asked (I know I would). Most other groups won't generally loan out their cars so freely.

Once a pilot friend of mine let me borrow her car to drive into Manhattan. I said she didn't have to and her response was "I've let you fly my plane, why wouldn't I let you borrow my car?" She had a point - the few times I've flown her plane she just threw me the keys and told me to go take someone else flying.

 

[tonycondon]

my alero and chris' old pickup are auto's. Leah's Subaru is a 5 speed.

 

[Bob Bement]

I have a ranger pickup that is stick. and I own a 1954 Willlys Jeep that is a stick. The jeep isn't runable just now however.

 

[t0r0nad0]

I learned to drive a stick working at a used car lot when I was in high school. I moved the cars around and detailed them, so it was lots of reverse and first gear - the hardest parts. I was the first person in my family to drive a stick, and I purposely bought one when I got my first car because a) they are more fun to drive and b) my parents couldn't take my car when one of theirs broke down. I'm now on my 2nd car, a 2002 Nissa XTerra with a 5-speed, and while I still enjoy driving the stick, there are times I wish I had an automatic. Most notably when the girlfriend and I are out somewhere and I'd like to have another beer, but can't because she can't drive my car. Sadly enough, I think my next car will be an automatic, but it will be under protest.

 

[RickH]

So, to use a real world example. You're saying that if you were at an old style freeway onramp (basically a short T intersection with the slow lane) with an 7 year old car. You have to merge from a dead stop on a short on-ramp. Would you be confident enough not to stall or grind gears vs the dependable low acceleration of an older auto?

ROFLMAO! A 7-year old car?...surely you mean a 70-year old car. Then there might be an issue with either sort of transmission. I'm perfectly happy accelerating my 15-year old, 115K miles, 5-speed, 4-cylinder Jeep into any sort of traffic. In almost 50 years of driving, in 20 or so vehicles, I've never ruined or replaced a clutch and only trashed one automatic transmission. That one was less than a year old and was repaired under warranty. I drive a stick for some of the same reasons I fly a taildragger.

 

[TMetzinger]

Forester is auto, Miata is a stick. The stick is part of the "fun" of driving a sports car.

 

[snowbird]

I taught my 19 yo son to drive our manual Miata last summer. He claims less than 10% of his friends can drive a stick. It was surprisingly inexpensive to insure him as a full time driver on the Miata. The actuaries must know something. Our LEO neighbor claims manual shift cars are stolen less because joyriding punks can't drive them.
As for left foot braking, is there any other way to steer a front wheel drive vehicle on snow and ice other than the handbrake?
For heel & toe plus left foot braking watch the master, Walter Rohrl http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HjXXUyQhPE

 

[TMetzinger]

I'm buying another miata this year for my wife. they're just too much fun, and with any luck in 10 years one of them will still be available for my daughter.

 

[Ted]

So, to use a real world example. You're saying that if you were at an old style freeway onramp (basically a short T intersection with the slow lane) with an 7 year old car. You have to merge from a dead stop on a short on-ramp. Would you be confident enough not to stall or grind gears vs the dependable low acceleration of an older auto?

Why yes, yes I am confident enough to do that. I've done it many times, including with trailers and on hills. If you stall or grind gears doing something like that, you need more training.

That's why you don't start off taking someone learning to drive stick into that situation, you start out in a parking lot and other unpopulated areas for them to get the feel down.

 

[gismo]

my alero and chris' old pickup are auto's. Leah's Subaru is a 5 speed.

I knew there had to be a reason (besides the good looks and pleasant demeaor) I liked that young woman!

 

[gismo]

I learned to drive a stick working at a used car lot when I was in high school. I moved the cars around and detailed them, so it was lots of reverse and first gear - the hardest parts. I was the first person in my family to drive a stick, and I purposely bought one when I got my first car because a) they are more fun to drive and b) my parents couldn't take my car when one of theirs broke down. I'm now on my 2nd car, a 2002 Nissa XTerra with a 5-speed, and while I still enjoy driving the stick, there are times I wish I had an automatic. Most notably when the girlfriend and I are out somewhere and I'd like to have another beer, but can't because she can't drive my car. Sadly enough, I think my next car will be an automatic, but it will be under protest.

Just teach your GF how to operate a stick, preferably some time when you're both sober.

 

[Everskyward]

I want to know what the correlation is between the pilots who are disdainful of automatics and the ones who are disdainful of autopilots.

 

[Ddayle]

My car is an Auto. My wife cannot drive a stick, but she still won't drive it, it has to much power. The reason some of you think a stick accelerates faster or allows use of more tourque, is because you are dealing with typical low powered cars.Niether is always true. In my case Auto= consistant, quicker, more reliable= winning. Dave

 

[gismo]

I want to know what the correlation is between the pilots who are disdainful of automatics and the ones who are disdainful of autopilots.

I wouldn't say I was disdainful of automatics even though I have a strong preference for manual transmission cars and my automotive purchases over the last 37 years reflects that. But that preference is in no way supporting a distaste for autopilots where appropriate. Two of the four planes I've owned (wholly or in partnership) have had autopilots and I use(d) those autopilots regularly. The other two had no such equipment and I would never consider adding one to the type involved for obvious reasons. One was an open cockpit aerobatic biplane with no gyros and the other is a 65 HP taildragger without anything beyond basic flight instruments (ASI, Altimeter, and compass). So for me there appears to be no correlation whatsoever.

 

[jlwilson]

Most interesting vehicle I've ever driven was an old Nissan pickup truck with a stick - in South Africa where the gear shift was on the wrong side, along with the steering wheel, etc. Not only did I have to think about the gear pattern, I had to remember to drive on the wrong side of the road. Driving on the wrong side isn't too much of a problem until you come up to an intersection and then have to remember which way to look and what lane to turn into - all while thinking about where 1st gear is with your wrong hand. I guess it's like learning to fly from the right seat, and I can't do that very well either :smile:.

Happy New Year all!

 

[ClimbnSink]

I can drive both. Buying a used generic car I'd take whatever was in the best deal. Buying new I'd take an auto everytime, Unless it was a Ferrari, race car, or something specific. The new autos are pretty good and for driving around I don't see it makes much difference might as well go with easy. We don't start cars with those metal cranks anymore why shift gears by hand?

 

[Ted]

I want to know what the correlation is between the pilots who are disdainful of automatics and the ones who are disdainful of autopilots.

Actually, I would liken it to having single lever control vs. your standard mixture/prop/throttle. A friend of mine who's both an auto mechanic and a pilot loves automatic transmissions, whereas I'm a fan of manuals. When I started flying we talked about this single lever control thing, which he doesn't like. I said "But Harold, it's like having an automatic transmission!"

He didn't like me using his automotive preference against him - he likes having throttle/prop/mixture on his plane.

 

[fgcason]

I want to know what the correlation is between the pilots who are disdainful of automatics and the ones who are disdainful of autopilots.

I prefer manual transmissions and hand flying the plane. Autopilots in VFR is IMO the equivalent of flying a flight simulator - no fun. I certainly don't want an automatic transmission on two wheels while riding twisties in the mountains.

I wonder if this is actually a control issue more than about the vehicle. Most pilots I know like total control of their plane. Automatics don't let you have total control over gear selection at all times. Even if the machine is more efficient, you still don't like it because this is about having control, not efficiency.

 

[Everskyward]

Actually, I would liken it to having single lever control vs. your standard mixture/prop/throttle.

If you're going to equate it to that I'll have to say that I like the single lever idea. I like even more the single lever you put in the proper detent and let FADEC figure out the rest.

 

[Ted]

If you're going to equate it to that I'll have to say that I like the single lever idea. I like even more the single lever you put in the proper detent and let FADEC figure out the rest.

You lazy jet pilots.

 

[Everskyward]

You lazy jet pilots.

The only thing we are missing is autothrottles.

 

[RogerT]

Truck .. automatic. 350Z ... stick shift. Harley ... stick shift.

RT

 

[Bill]

If you really want to get your toes twisted try left foot braking with a manual transmission.

Why, rally type stuff? Stay on the gas while using stabs of brake to control drifts, etc.?

 

[gismo]

Why, rally type stuff? Stay on the gas while using stabs of brake to control drifts, etc.?

Exactly. It's the only way I know of to reliably get the tail to swing wide with AWD.

 

[bbchien]

Exactly. It's the only way I know of to reliably get the tail to swing wide with AWD.

Yeah, my Honda CRV might as well have drone-o-matic. With the AWD full time traction control, if it doesn't like something it won't let me do it.

I'm just a passenger.

 

[Bill]

Yeah, my Honda CRV might as well have drone-o-matic. With the AWD full time traction control, if it doesn't like something it won't let me do it.

I'm just a passenger.

Cars for the lowest common denominator. Most folks (less so among pilots) don't have any clue as to their vehicles ultimate capability.

 

[gprellwitz]

I prefer manual transmissions and hand flying the plane. Autopilots in VFR is IMO the equivalent of flying a flight simulator - no fun. I certainly don't want an automatic transmission on two wheels while riding twisties in the mountains

Hmmm.... I hadn't thought about the correlation of the terrain (I'm pretty much flat-land) to the preference for either autopilot or automatic transmission. That's interesting. Let's try for a federally funded study on that!!

 

[fgcason]

Hmmm.... I hadn't thought about the correlation of the terrain (I'm pretty much flat-land) to the preference for either autopilot or automatic transmission. That's interesting. Let's try for a federally funded study on that!!

I'll do the real world experimenting for the research grant. 10 years, $300million easy and all sorts of exotic interesting places to do the research.

On hilly terrain, I'll take a standard transmission over automatic anyday. Then again, I grew up on the farm driving tractors and heavily loaded haytrucks on hills. 1st gear means torque to go up and controlled engine braking going downhill, not ramping up to 30+mph like automatics will allow even when set to L1.

Motorcycles + twisties + mountains + automatic gear change = I'm not going there, no way, no how. There are too many things to run into..or off of when some nitwit designers idea of correct timing to change gears makes you go wide or slides the rear tire.

 

[Everskyward]

Hmmm.... I hadn't thought about the correlation of the terrain (I'm pretty much flat-land) to the preference for either autopilot or automatic transmission. That's interesting. Let's try for a federally funded study on that!!

We could also ask what people think of cruise control.