Steep turns and wind

[Skyscraper]

Hey all,

Been practicing my steep turns a lot lately and can't seem to keep a lot of confidence when it comes to wind.

Basically when I'm at a 45 degree angle of bank, I get concerned that a gust of wind may come from nowhere and push me past 45 and full ailerons may not be enough to right me back to 45 or less. I realize they probably shouldn't be performed unless there is almost no wind but sometimes a small gust just pops up from nowhere and get me spooked.

Do you guys have a personal rule of thumb on what kind of wind conditions you consider acceptable for steep turns?

Just trying to get a better handle on the subject and would love to hear opinions and learn from some of your experience...

Thanks!

 

[Skylane81E]

Plane doesn't care, this isn't a ground reference maneuver so bank it over and turn, if the wind blows you drift with it.

 

[SixPapaCharlie]

Hey all,

Been practicing my steep turns a lot lately and can't seem to keep a lot of confidence when it comes to wind.

Basically when I'm at a 45 degree angle of bank, I get concerned that a gust of wind may come from nowhere and push me past 45 and full ailerons may not be enough to right me back to 45 or less. I realize they probably shouldn't be performed unless there is almost no wind but sometimes a small gust just pops up from nowhere and get me spooked.

Do you guys have a personal rule of thumb on what kind of wind conditions you consider acceptable for steep turns?

Just trying to get a better handle on the subject and would love to hear opinions and learn from some of your experience...

Thanks!

Just roll with it

Kidding. It won't roll the plane.

45 degrees feels a lot steeper than it actually is. If anything, I would expect a strong wing to just push the whole plane. The odds of a very strong wind just hitting the bottom of the upper wing and not hitting the low wing would be rare. You would almost have to be in wake turbulence for this to occur.

My rule of thumb is if there is a lot of turbulence and I am having trouble holding altitude / heading in straight and level flight, then I won't be practicing maneuvers.

I know what you are feeling though and that is all it is. A feeling. If you can fly "normal" in the conditions without being thrown all over the place, you can do steep turns without fear of rolling over.

 

[Bobcat1]

Hey all,


Do you guys have a personal rule of thumb on what kind of wind conditions you consider acceptable for steep turns?

No. Any amount of wind will do, or even none at all. The airplane doesn't care or know.

 

[darthnomster]

My guess is that you're not actually talking about "wind" so much as encountering pockets of thermal lift. As noted by others, wind will just shift the whole aircraft one way or another. A pocket of turbulence might lift one wing more than the other, etc. Since this is caused by the ground heating and causing lift, it's more pronounced in the afternoon, over populated areas (parking lots and warehouse roofs heat up faster than grass and trees), and/or at relatively low altitudes. So pick a place to practice over woods or farmland, get up a bit more, and go earlier in the day. Or, just go flying more and get used to it.

Disclaimer: I'm also a low time pilot, so I'm sure someone will be around shortly to correct my mistakes.

Hey all,

Been practicing my steep turns a lot lately and can't seem to keep a lot of confidence when it comes to wind.

Basically when I'm at a 45 degree angle of bank, I get concerned that a gust of wind may come from nowhere and push me past 45 and full ailerons may not be enough to right me back to 45 or less. I realize they probably shouldn't be performed unless there is almost no wind but sometimes a small gust just pops up from nowhere and get me spooked.

Do you guys have a personal rule of thumb on what kind of wind conditions you consider acceptable for steep turns?

Just trying to get a better handle on the subject and would love to hear opinions and learn from some of your experience...

Thanks!

 

[denverpilot]

Hey all,

Been practicing my steep turns a lot lately and can't seem to keep a lot of confidence when it comes to wind.

Basically when I'm at a 45 degree angle of bank, I get concerned that a gust of wind may come from nowhere and push me past 45 and full ailerons may not be enough to right me back to 45 or less. I realize they probably shouldn't be performed unless there is almost no wind but sometimes a small gust just pops up from nowhere and get me spooked.

Do you guys have a personal rule of thumb on what kind of wind conditions you consider acceptable for steep turns?

Just trying to get a better handle on the subject and would love to hear opinions and learn from some of your experience...

Thanks!

You're part of the moving air mass. There's no "gust of wind" coming that'll move that much faster than the air mass while you're in the turn.

You can get a bumpy day with vertical development and unstable air that can bounce you around a bit doing air work. Maybe pop a wing up a couple of degrees compared to the other one. Just fix it with aileron.

If it's worse than that you're probably underneath a thunderstorm and made a bad decision about flying in general that day.

A decent analogy might be a small boat doing circles on a choppy lake. Unless there's waves larger than the boat on the lake that day, you'll just go around in circles and get bounced around doing it. No big deal.

Air isn't always smooth. If it's ridiculously uncomfortable, and you're hitting your head on the ceiling even with a tight lap belt, your instructor probably wouldn't complain if you called "knock it off" for the afternoon. You might spill his or her coffee. Heh.

 

[Skyscraper]

Thanks for the responses everyone. I guess it's also just bumpy air that kind of throws off my coordination in a turn, perhaps that more it than wind. I think I'm just still at that point where I try to correct for every little bump with the controls instead of just riding it out. Also I'm sure it's just inexperience that is keeping my confidence down.

 

[TommyG]

Go past 45 to 60. You will see that nothing bad happens.

 

[hooligan]

Wind shear is a important consideration when flying and does cause the phenomenon you describe. Be especially vigilant when flying during frontal passage or when you have mixing of warm and cold air. When I fly in weather conditions as I described I keep my banks shallower than I would in stable air especially close to the ground and heavily loaded and I am quick to unload (relax back pressure) the wing if I should encounter what you describe.

Fly coordinated and with a light touch. An unloaded wing will not stall. It is the ham fist that does it.

 

[ferrari-tech]

Go past 45 to 60. You will see that nothing bad happens.

I was taught to do them at 60 as well. Bank it over, couple of spins on the trim wheel, and add 100-200rpm kept my training plane right in the sweet spot.
Once I got out of the habit of trying to "over control" everything and let the plane do what it wanted to, that is fly.....

 

[Owad1971]

My guess is that you're not actually talking about "wind" so much as encountering pockets of thermal lift. As noted by others, wind will just shift the whole aircraft one way or another. A pocket of turbulence might lift one wing more than the other, etc. Since this is caused by the ground heating and causing lift, it's more pronounced in the afternoon, over populated areas (parking lots and warehouse roofs heat up faster than grass and trees), and/or at relatively low altitudes. So pick a place to practice over woods or farmland, get up a bit more, and go earlier in the day. Or, just go flying more and get used to it.

Disclaimer: I'm also a low time pilot, so I'm sure someone will be around shortly to correct my mistakes.

I had the same question about wind gusts & thermals! Following the same logic- would it be best to practice performance takeoff's and landings early in the day for the same reason? On a check ride will the examiner understand that your performance landing wasn't your best because you were getting your A** kicked by gusts and thermals on final

I did a prog check with another CFI and it was not a "fun" afternoon to fly for an evaluation. I was able to keep centerline, safely reconfigure etc.... but I really felt that it was not a good "demonstration" of those finer points.

 

[AggieMike88]

Go past 45 to 60. You will see that nothing bad happens.

The first time I did that win an instructor, it was really trippy. To be banked that much, yet still producing enough lift that I don't lose altitude was an eye opener for sure!

After that lesson, never worried about 30°-45° banks ever again!

 

[ChrisK]

Plane doesn't care, this isn't a ground reference maneuver so bank it over and turn, if the wind blows you drift with it.

Performance maneuver, not a ground reference maneuver. You don't have to keep the plane over the same point on the ground, thankfully. I probably would have failed

 

[dtuuri]

Basically when I'm at a 45 degree angle of bank, I get concerned that a gust of wind may come from nowhere and push me past 45...

Possibly might be a gust, but more likely your own 'prop wash'. If you descend slightly during the turn, you'll run through it.

dtuuri

 

[ferrari-tech]

The first time I did that win an instructor, it was really trippy. To be banked that much, yet still producing enough lift that I don't lose altitude was an eye opener for sure!

After that lesson, never worried about 30°-45° banks ever again!

+1 to that

 

[somorris]

If you are fairly low and the wind is blowing over things on the ground that could be creating turbulence, I could see the wind gusts you are talking about happening. Otherwise, don't worry too much about it.

 

[denverpilot]

Wind shear is a important consideration when flying and does cause the phenomenon you describe. Be especially vigilant when flying during frontal passage or when you have mixing of warm and cold air. When I fly in weather conditions as I described I keep my banks shallower than I would in stable air especially close to the ground and heavily loaded and I am quick to unload (relax back pressure) the wing if I should encounter what you describe.

Fly coordinated and with a light touch. An unloaded wing will not stall. It is the ham fist that does it.

He shouldn't be doing steep turns so low that wind shear is a problem. Hopefully you're not either. This is silly.

If you see a giant cold front coming that's so violent it's going to bat you around, again... not a great time to be out flying in general, let alone doing air work...

If you see a giant warm front coming... well, go back to taking a nap... Ha... won't be much action from that.

The airplane will happily go around in circles at 45 degrees of bank all along the frontal boundary of a cold front without falling out of the sky in such bumpy conditions... you're just going to get your head cracked on the overhead. LOL! Time to land and watch TV or something more useful.

But I doubt the things you mention are what he's concerned about. Just bumps on a normal day. One way to avoid it is to fly really early in the morning before much heating has taken place and before much convective activity has time to get going.

I say this, but I hate going up early morning, so I usually just get bounced around in the afternoon heat. The joke from Aviation podcaster Jeb Burnside about, "No key will turn before noon" isn't far off on my typical flying day... haha...

I got no good reason to wake up before dawn to go flying, almost ever. Stay up until 2AM doing it? Sure... heh...

 

[denverpilot]

P.S. If wings getting bumped up in turns REALLY troubles you, find a good instructor who'll do real spin training and see how much effort it really takes to upset a typical light aircraft from a 45 degree bank into a spin.

It takes the unknown away, and you can see a normal speed steep turn really is a pretty significant margin above any sort of "upset" or "unusual attitude" type event. It really may be worth the bucks and the time to go seek this type of training out... if you're nervous about such things.

Just find some kindly ol' instructor who actually knows how to introduce you to spins properly without mega-drama... there's plenty of that surrounding spins and unusual attitudes these days.

What we typically label "unusual attitudes" these days was "just out having fun in the Stearman" a few decades ago. Seriously. We've homogenized the 3 dimensional world of flying airplanes pretty badly, with somewhat predictable paranoia about steep turns or anything that feels weird from most students these days.

We also stopped making airplanes that like being upside down or sideways for the most part, quite some time ago. That's all they made for a long time... then the spamcans came along, and well... it's not the same.

Granted, they didn't teach all that much back in those days either, and a lot of guys and gals broke their butts and airplanes trying to teach themselves aerobatics back then... so there's benefits to today's better/bigger teaching approach, for sure...

But there's definitely a loss of true understanding that flying is a 3-dimensional medium in today's training environment.

 

[MAKG1]

If you are fairly low and the wind is blowing over things on the ground that could be creating turbulence, I could see the wind gusts you are talking about happening. Otherwise, don't worry too much about it.

Just everyone seems to have missed that those things on the ground are 3000 feet high around KSTS. If there is a lot of wind at altitude, turbulence is possible downwind from the mountains.

Now, there hasn't been much wind at altitude lately, and as folks have said, you're not likely to upset. You're also not likely to meet PTS. But there is nothing keeping you from using a much higher altitude. Get 1000 feet above the highest peak and it should be smoother.

 

[Geico266]

Thanks for the responses everyone. I guess it's also just bumpy air that kind of throws off my coordination in a turn, perhaps that more it than wind. I think I'm just still at that point where I try to correct for every little bump with the controls instead of just riding it out. Also I'm sure it's just inexperience that is keeping my confidence down.

You are learning. Give your self an attaboy for asking the question.

Learn to fly in all conditions, you will be a better more confident aviator. Cross winds are nothing to worry about, just respect them and know the limits of your plane and ability. Study the wind sock every time you fly, it is your friend.

I just delivered a plane to Santa Rosa. Nice airport!

 

[comanchepilot]

The thing about a windy day and flying steep turns is you prob will not fly through your own wake cause it'll get blown away too fast - you know you did it right when you encounter your own wake leveling out.

 

[hooligan]

He shouldn't be doing steep turns so low that wind shear is a problem. Hopefully you're not either. This is silly.

If you see a giant cold front coming that's so violent it's going to bat you around, again... not a great time to be out flying in general, let alone doing air work...

On the contrary...Pretty silly blanket statements from you!

The wind shear I speak of is not from interference or friction from the geography and it can be present far in advance of any advancing front or it may be localized weather that has a mixing of air of different properties.

Some of us fly in weather that is less than ideal beacause it is our job and we make it as much of a science as we can.

 

[somorris]

Just everyone seems to have missed that those things on the ground are 3000 feet high around KSTS. If there is a lot of wind at altitude, turbulence is possible downwind from the mountains.

That is what I was getting at. "Fairly low" was a relative term.

 

[denverpilot]

I just delivered a plane to Santa Rosa. Nice airport!

And you didn't stop in and say hi to John at Cessna Pilot's Assn?

See how you are... Heh...

 

[denverpilot]

On the contrary...Pretty silly blanket statements from you!

The wind shear I speak of is not from interference or friction from the geography and it can be present far in advance of any advancing front or it may be localized weather that has a mixing of air of different properties.

Some of us fly in weather that is less than ideal beacause it is our job and we make it as much of a science as we can.

Dude... seriously... if you're out in such a strong frontal passage that it makes a serious difference in a steep turn, I'm pretty sure Dorothy is blowing away with the house across Kansas somewhere. Good lord.

You got a good textbook game, but a few thousand AGL up, doing a steep turn, you aren't going to see or feel squat from "mixing air of different properties" unless there's a pressure gradient of hurricane proportions across the frontal boundary. Seriously.

 

[hooligan]

Dude... seriously... if you're out in such a strong frontal passage that it makes a serious difference in a steep turn, I'm pretty sure Dorothy is blowing away with the house across Kansas somewhere. Good lord.

You got a good textbook game, but a few thousand AGL up, doing a steep turn, you aren't going to see or feel squat from "mixing air of different properties" unless there's a pressure gradient of hurricane proportions across the frontal boundary. Seriously.

Text book game? That would be you... Twisting the context to suit your position. You are wrong!

I know you think that you are clever and humorous but most people can see through your pretense. Using words and phrases such as "Dude," "good lord," Dorothy blowing away"are inapproprite to use in the forum. They are words you use to attempt to belittle others to make you feel superior. In affect they do just the opposite.

The problem with chronic posters such as yourself is that they get comfortable,complacent and indifferent.

Seriously...Give it a rest! You are not worthy dude...and dude is a presumption. I have nothing more to say to you directly.

 

[ChrisK]

Dude. Dude is like half of my vocab dude =(

 

[Skyscraper]

Dude. Dude is like half of my vocab dude =(

+1 to that dude.

Of the few forums I belong to, this one gets off track and downright silly more than any. I do wish there was more presence from moderators on POA. Just knowing that they are there keeps a lot of people in my bass players forum from getting on the offensive and personally attacking others. Still happens of course, but on the whole, someone knowing they can be banned for breaking specific rules usually keeps the content pretty clean.

 

[Skyscraper]

You are learning. Give your self an attaboy for asking the question.

Learn to fly in all conditions, you will be a better more confident aviator. Cross winds are nothing to worry about, just respect them and know the limits of your plane and ability. Study the wind sock every time you fly, it is your friend.

I just delivered a plane to Santa Rosa. Nice airport!

Thanks for the advice!

And yes, Santa Rosa is a nice airport, I really enjoy looking at all the out of service warbirds in the museum on the drive to my plane. Plus it's entertaining seeing the commercial flights from Alaska and Horizon and the REACH and Sheriff helicopters. Many types of aircraft being flown to and from there, lot's of people take their young ones there just to sit and watch things take off.

 

[Henning]

Hey all,

Been practicing my steep turns a lot lately and can't seem to keep a lot of confidence when it comes to wind.

Basically when I'm at a 45 degree angle of bank, I get concerned that a gust of wind may come from nowhere and push me past 45 and full ailerons may not be enough to right me back to 45 or less. I realize they probably shouldn't be performed unless there is almost no wind but sometimes a small gust just pops up from nowhere and get me spooked.

Do you guys have a personal rule of thumb on what kind of wind conditions you consider acceptable for steep turns?

Just trying to get a better handle on the subject and would love to hear opinions and learn from some of your experience...

Thanks!

Wow, completely incorrect in everything you just said. First off, 45° isn't particularly steep, it takes 60° to even make it a 2g turn. The wind will have pretty much no effect on the plane itself, and if you are doing turns around a point and s turns across a road in a strong wind you'll be banking past 45° to make your ground track. Your ailerons will function just fine, however, they are not your primary control anyway, your rudder is. The only time wind is a limiting factor is when you are concerned with the ground, either contacting it or covering enough of it with the fuel you have onboard.

 

[denverpilot]

Text book game? That would be you... Twisting the context to suit your position. You are wrong!

I know you think that you are clever and humorous but most people can see through your pretense. Using words and phrases such as "Dude," "good lord," Dorothy blowing away"are inapproprite to use in the forum. They are words you use to attempt to belittle others to make you feel superior. In affect they do just the opposite.

The problem with chronic posters such as yourself is that they get comfortable,complacent and indifferent.

Seriously...Give it a rest! You are not worthy dude...and dude is a presumption. I have nothing more to say to you directly.

I must have hit a chord. Are you a basement dwelling flight simmer or a freshly minted CFI at a big school trying to impress people?

Nothing you've posted matches anyone's experience out here in the real world of flying, but hey... You're the big important guy of the thread after pretending you know something and utilizing big phrases like, "I have nothing more to say to you directly." As if I care? LOL.

Oh no. Some guy reading aviation weather textbooks who's got zero clue about steep turns on the Internet doesn't want to talk to me!! Hahaha.

Who's trying to belittle whom here? It's not working bit it is cute. So do you have a nice costume for Halloween? Does it include some of those fancy Captain's epaulets?

Chronic posters! Bahahaha. Wow. That's a big put down. I'm gonna go cry now. ROFL.

Here let me use my favorite Obama phrase...

Let me be clear...

No frontal passage or mixing of dissimilar air masses is going to have jack crap of an effect on some poor guy who's nervous about bumps in steep turns and out on a totally normal weather day with his instructor who's still handling the weather decisions at that stage of training (even though he's making the student do it also).

You're just fear-mongering him with silly crap from an aviation weather textbook that isn't what he's even talking about to try to look smart.

The guy is just nervous about bog standard turbulence. He needs encouragement and knowledge that it's all completely normal, not a damn dissertation on frontal passages. Don't be THAT aviation person who always has to scare the newbies. Sheesh.

OP: Airplanes bounce. Do the steep turn and correct as needed. There's no giant storm front passage messing with you. This guy is trolling you or me or both. Seriously.

 

[RoscoeT]

Wow, completely incorrect in everything you just said.

Totally uncalled for tone and response. The OP sounds like an inexperienced pilot who is asking well-intended questions and looking for advice. We've all seen newbie pilot keyboard captains make statements as if they know more than all the much more experienced aviators, but that is not happening here at all. Save your tone for those types.

 

[Skyscraper]

Totally uncalled for tone and response. The OP sounds like an inexperienced pilot who is asking well-intended questions and looking for advice. We've all seen newbie pilot keyboard captains make statements as if they know more than all the much more experienced aviators, but that is not happening here at all. Save your tone for those types.

Thanks, I felt the same way when reading his post. Just a student pilot looking for some words of wisdom here. I'm happy to be corrected on anything I say that implies a misunderstanding, but a little more general courtesy would be nice.

 

[Skylane81E]

Text book game? That would be you... Twisting the context to suit your position. You are wrong!

I know you think that you are clever and humorous but most people can see through your pretense. Using words and phrases such as "Dude," "good lord," Dorothy blowing away"are inapproprite to use in the forum. They are words you use to attempt to belittle others to make you feel superior. In affect they do just the opposite.

The problem with chronic posters such as yourself is that they get comfortable,complacent and indifferent.

Seriously...Give it a rest! You are not worthy dude...and dude is a presumption. I have nothing more to say to you directly.

Chill Winston

 

[denverpilot]

Chill Winston

ROFL.