steep turns- 2 questions

thats just silly. the ercoupe lands very nicely in a crab in crosswinds that would scare the typical nosewheel pilot.

I'm sure it would scare a tailwheel pilot too!!

The gear is supposed to be the reason it can handle the crabbed landings, but looking over Ercoupe gear I don't see where it's so much more robust...

:dunno:
 
ive landed ercoupes in 10-15 crosswind components on pavement. sometimes on 24 ft wide pavement. as soon as it touches down it straightens out just fine.
 
ok, you guys made me do it. Radius of turn equation is pretty simple:

R = V^2/(g*tan(bank angle))

I came up with attached graph. you're right, steeper bank, bigger speed difference between wingtips. I had never thought about it hard enough to consider the difference in turn radius. duh.

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ive landed ercoupes in 10-15 crosswind components on pavement. sometimes on 24 ft wide pavement. as soon as it touches down it straightens out just fine.
..and you did that..because it's built to be flown like that. Not sure why some people, so many years later, can't accept that fact.
 
oh and by the way that graph is for a 50 foot wingspan. change the wingspan has a direct correlation to the speed difference. form of the graph is the same.
 
On grass? No problem. On hard surface? Eh.....

It does it. Been there and done that. Of course, I was a passenger who flies an airplane that takes zero side load. I was so drawed up on landing I had to take ibuprofen for a week afterward.

The little airplane handles the crab on the ground just fine. It crabs for a moment, then straightens itself out.

We used to have several Coupes on our field that were part of a formation flight them. They are fun airplanes.

Deb
 
ok, you guys made me do it. Radius of turn equation is pretty simple:

R = V^2/(g*tan(bank angle))

I came up with attached graph. you're right, steeper bank, bigger speed difference between wingtips. I had never thought about it hard enough to consider the difference in turn radius. duh.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tony, what does the ^ stand for and what is g? I assume the * means multiply
so it's: radius=velocity (something)2 divided by (something) times bank angle - the tan means tangent?

Very nice diagram too thanks - I'm going to copy it to put in my folder of nifty pictures
 
Not Tony, but V^2 is velocity squared. And g is gravity (32 feet per second per second). There is a bit more to get it in the proper units.

Joe
 
correct, and I used 32.2 for gravitational acceleration.
 
OK, I'm totally at a loss as to how to read that chart. I hope somebody will take it on to 'splain it to me.

At a 90 degree angle the wingtips should be going the same speed. I can see the speed difference at banks up to 45, but, above 45 (halfway) shouldn't the differences close back up until reaching zero again at 90 degrees?
 
Sadly, the accident statistics suggest otherwise -- poor basic stick-and-rudder skills seem to be a major cause of accidents.

That seems to be the cause of the apparent higher accident rate for LSA aircraft that has been quoted by an insurance company.
http://www.planeandpilotmag.com/pilot-talk/more-pilot-talk/light-sport-chronicles-csi-insurance-excogitations-on-lsa-crashes-part-1.html


fwiw:

http://www.tutimaacademy.com/pat.html
A modern pilot taught to current FAA standards has experienced less than 13 percent of an airplane’s complete flight envelope. Any aircraft is a completely three-dimensional machine, capable of encountering many adverse situations under the wrong conditions. Accident statistics have proven that in situations where a pilot is pushed to the edge of their experience, the results are usually disastrous.
 
That seems to be the cause of the apparent higher accident rate for LSA aircraft that has been quoted by an insurance company.
http://www.planeandpilotmag.com/pilot-talk/more-pilot-talk/light-sport-chronicles-csi-insurance-excogitations-on-lsa-crashes-part-1.html


fwiw:

http://www.tutimaacademy.com/pat.html
Whether getting outside our envelope of experience is "usually disastrous" cannot be easily known, because those times where it is not "disastrous" are not recorded.

Sean Tucker has something to sell:
Training includes:

Fully controlled flight at high angles of attack / stalled flight

Basic through advanced spin development and recovery

Recoveries from all flight attitudes

Dealing with control system failures

Basic aerobatic training for precision flight in unusual attitudes
 
OK, I'm totally at a loss as to how to read that chart. I hope somebody will take it on to 'splain it to me.

At a 90 degree angle the wingtips should be going the same speed. I can see the speed difference at banks up to 45, but, above 45 (halfway) shouldn't the differences close back up until reaching zero again at 90 degrees?

Remember turn rate. What you say would only be true at the same turn rate/radius, but the higher the bank, the greater the turn rate, which more than makes up for the wingtips being "closer" in the horizontal plane.

I believe that at 90 degrees it's undefined - zero difference but "infinite" turn rate. Real world, you already ripped your wings off and crushed yourself like a bug, so you probably don't have much to say about overbanking tendencies any more. ;)
 
What you say would only be true at the same turn rate/radius, but the higher the bank, the greater the turn rate, which more than makes up for the wingtips being "closer" in the horizontal plane.
Oh yeah. Thanks. That worked for me. (gigity)
 
To the OP....

IMHO nothing provides such immediate evidence of the pilot's mastery of an airplane as a steep turn.

A Well-executed chandelle is a close second.

Agreed!

My favorite when working with an akro pilot getting ready to do display work was to have them trim out in level flight with the altimeter needle exactly centered on the 0 then tell them to try maintaining level flight by keeping the large altimeter needle within the confines of the 0. Then we'd try that inverted.
With a bit of wind at altitude, doing that can be a handful, but it teaches extremely delicate control pressures to maintain such a tolerance. Later on, we'd be doing slow rolls returning that same altimeter needle back to a 0 on recovery.
Dudley Henriques
 
tell them to try maintaining level flight by keeping the large altimeter needle within the confines of the 0. - it teaches extremely delicate control pressures to maintain such a tolerance.
...since you mentioned it,...I have found that keeping the VSI needle within the confines of the zero is easier...easier to see, and easier to control. The VSI needle moves at exactly the same time and direction as the altimeter needle, but the physical movement of the needle is larger. Once gaining control of the VSI needle, one can put the needle in the center, or lay it on the top of the zero, or on the bottom of the zero to develop the delicate control touch that will keep the altimeter needle absolutely centered in the zero.
 
...since you mentioned it,...I have found that keeping the VSI needle within the confines of the zero is easier...easier to see, and easier to control. The VSI needle moves at exactly the same time and direction as the altimeter needle,
Unfortunately, unless you have an Instantaneous Vertical Speed Indicator (IVSI, which few light planes have), it doesn't. My observation as an instructor is the lag in the VSI generally causes folks who try to follow it during steep turns to get into oscillations around the target altitude, often in increasing amplitude. What seems to work best for my trainees is to hold attitude, check the altimeter for movement, and then adjust attitude to compensate for any altimeter needle movement. The worst performances I've seen are from pilots who look at the VSI and then move the yoke back and forth in response to VSI movement without any reference to attitude.
 
Unfortunately, unless you have an Instantaneous Vertical Speed Indicator (IVSI, which few light planes have), it doesn't. My observation as an instructor is the lag in the VSI generally causes folks who try to follow it during steep turns to get into oscillations around the target altitude, often in increasing amplitude. What seems to work best for my trainees is to hold attitude, check the altimeter for movement, and then adjust attitude to compensate for any altimeter needle movement. The worst performances I've seen are from pilots who look at the VSI and then move the yoke back and forth in response to VSI movement without any reference to attitude.

The VSI provides more immediate indication of trend than the Altimeter, but greatly lags the view out the window.

During my Comm training we had so many hazy days in a row Larry called it "advanced instrument maneuvers" -- I had to check the VSI, Heading, and Altimeter to be sure we were tracking for Lazy 8s and Chandelles.
 
Given how the VSI works, that's a physical impossibility. I've proved that to my doubting students many times by demonstration.

I'll clarify -- While VSI lags behind actual pressure change, it is more sensitive than the altimeter and thus provides more immediate feedback of change.

From the FAA Instrument Flying Handbook:

The pointer indication in a VSI lags a few seconds behind the actual change in pressure. However, it is more sensitive
than an altimeter and is useful in alerting the pilot of an upward or downward trend, thereby helping maintain a constant altitude.
 
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Unfortunately, unless you have an Instantaneous Vertical Speed Indicator (IVSI, which few light planes have), it doesn't.
I'm not so sure about that. A standard (calibrated leak type) VSI takes a while to read the actual climb/decent rate but the needle deflects almost instantly in the correct direction.

My observation as an instructor is the lag in the VSI generally causes folks who try to follow it during steep turns to get into oscillations around the target altitude, often in increasing amplitude. What seems to work best for my trainees is to hold attitude, check the altimeter for movement, and then adjust attitude to compensate for any altimeter needle movement. The worst performances I've seen are from pilots who look at the VSI and then move the yoke back and forth in response to VSI movement without any reference to attitude.
This part I agree with completely. I find the VSI to be a good quick check to confirm proper attitude and a lousy way to fix it. Steep turns (private and commercial) are visual maneuvers and that big natural horizon out the window is the best reference for pitch and bank changes.

Joe
 
Given how the VSI works, that's a physical impossibility. I've proved that to my doubting students many times by demonstration.
Ron, please describe that demonstration. Certainly there is a lag from a pitch change and an altitude change but what kind of lag between an altitude change and a deflection of the VSI?

Joe
 
This part I agree with completely. I find the VSI to be a good quick check to confirm proper attitude and a lousy way to fix it. Steep turns (private and commercial) are visual maneuvers and that big natural horizon out the window is the best reference for pitch and bank changes.

Joe

me too -- it's a confirmation, not command instrument.
 
I'm not so sure about that. A standard (calibrated leak type) VSI takes a while to read the actual climb/decent rate but the needle deflects almost instantly in the correct direction.

Joe
Not exceptionally relevant to the discussion at hand, but Hawkers show a descent on the VSI til we're 100 feet or so in the air on takeoff...the large increase in AOA gives a little ram air pressure to the lower static ports. Makes some people nervous to call "positive rate" for gear retraction when the VSI is showing a "negative rate".:D
 
I've never found the VSI to be of any use in steep turns. Maybe that is just me. The altimeter on the other hand, I've found to be much more useful.
 
Ron, please describe that demonstration. Certainly there is a lag from a pitch change and an altitude change but what kind of lag between an altitude change and a deflection of the VSI?
Put the airplane into a dive, then pull up to level off. The VSI will still be showing a descent long after you need to stop pulling. Ditto for a climb and push to level. However, in each case, the altimeter will stop moving right when you need to stop pulling/pushing. This becomes particularly important in partial panel unusual attitude recoveries, in which VSI-oriented pilots will give you a real roller-coaster ride before stabilizing.

And don't even get me started on TC vs T&B for partial panel flying. I'd like to find the idiot who decided to put that gyro on a 45-degree slant, and put his head on a 45-degree slant.
 
And don't even get me started on TC vs T&B for partial panel flying. I'd like to find the idiot who decided to put that gyro on a 45-degree slant, and put his head on a 45-degree slant.
I dunno...makes the better one cheaper and easier to get ;)
 
What's wrong with the TC?
It gives you the sum of roll and yaw rates, not pure yaw rate. Thus, when you're trying to roll to a standard rate turn or wings level in a partial panel situation, you have to roll until the wingtip goes past the the mark by just the right amount (which varies with roll rate), then roll out, then wait for the TC turn rate indicator to come back to a stable condition, and then fine-tune. With a T&B, you roll to the mark and that's it.
 
And don't even get me started on TC vs T&B for partial panel flying. I'd like to find the idiot who decided to put that gyro on a 45-degree slant, and put his head on a 45-degree slant.
That would be Lt. General Jame Doolittle, wayyyy back when he was a Lt. negotiating with the Sperry Co....

I do agree with you and am still trying understand what Dan may actually be trying to say. The VSI sucks unless it's an IVSI, in this maneuver.
 
I do agree with you and am still trying understand what Dan may actually be trying to say. The VSI sucks unless it's an IVSI, in this maneuver.

Simple -- the movement of the VSI needle indicates a change, and can be useful adjunct to the scan.

I haven't been advocating fixation on the VSI.
 
Simple -- the movement of the VSI needle indicates a change, and can be useful adjunct to the scan.
It indicates only changes in the past, not the current direction/rate of change now, and thus is only useful in a stable flight condition, not a dynamic maneuver. That's probably why it's the only one of the standard 6-pack which isn't required for IFR flight.
 
It indicates only changes in the past, not the current direction/rate of change now, and thus is only useful in a stable flight condition, not a dynamic maneuver. That's probably why it's the only one of the standard 6-pack which isn't required for IFR flight.

The VSI is more sensitive than an altimeter and is useful in alerting the pilot of an upward or downward trend, thereby helping maintain a constant altitude.

Sound familiar?
 
The VSI is more sensitive than an altimeter and is useful in alerting the pilot of an upward or downward trend, thereby helping maintain a constant altitude.

Sound familiar?

I have to go with Dan on this one, The VSI works very well in maneuvers that are basically a level attitude manuever. While the VSI is lagging behind it isn't that far behind. I can look at the VSI and know instantly if I am climbing or descending. A look a the Altimeter only shows if I am high or low, I have to watch it or check it twice to determine if I am climbing or descending. If I watch the VSI for the same amount of time I am watching the altimeter i can determine trend i.e. is my climb rate increasing or decreasing. If the VSI needle is steady within a couple hundred feet of zero I will meet the PTS Standards. When The VSI needle starts moving I need to get it stopped (by adjusting attitude) or I will likely bust the PTS Standards.

I am not avocating chasing the VSI, just saying that I can tell what is happening faster with a VSI (even a slow one) than I can by the Altimeter. All you need to do is stop large trends on the VSI and use the Altimeter to determine if you need to climb or descend to make your error +-0. Again this only applies to maneuvers where you should be holding altitude.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
Put the airplane into a dive, then pull up to level off. The VSI will still be showing a descent long after you need to stop pulling. Ditto for a climb and push to level. However, in each case, the altimeter will stop moving right when you need to stop pulling/pushing. This becomes particularly important in partial panel unusual attitude recoveries, in which VSI-oriented pilots will give you a real roller-coaster ride before stabilizing.
Great! I hoped to get a discussion going on the VSI.

Ron, I quoted your demonstration in order to compare to mine, but first, some background:

I, too, only used the vsi for approximate rates of descent on a non-precision approach. That was the way I was taught and, like everybody else, I could see the vsi had to much lag to actually use as a pitch instrument.

Then I learned to fly helicopter instruments. Unlike an airplane, the helicopter attitude indicator is not a reliable indication of the attitude of the wing, so the altimeter, and vsi, become primary pitch instruments.

The reason I entered this discussion was the remark about teaching precise, delicate control touch on the elevator for altitude (pitch) control.

I have found that we all can learn the precise control necessary to keep the altimeter needle within the zero by using the vsi needle to do that. It is a skill, like learning to land the airplane. Landing takes a finely developed control touch on the elevator to get the greasers.

Take the same attitude towards learning to center and control the vsi needle, and anybody that can land an airplane can also learn to center the vsi.

Let's look back at your demo. I use this following demo to start the process of learning how to interpret and respond to the needle movement:

First, the needle moves up or down when the nose goes up or down. Forget about rate, this is trend.

Second, the needle stops moving when the nose is level with the horizon.

To demonstrate:
Start in level flight with the altimeter needle in the zero at the top, and at a comfortable approach speed. Look outside at the horizon, and note where the nose is, start a pull-up to get the needle moving up, note how it starts up almost immediately. You're pitching up about 10 to 15 degrees, enough to get the vsi needle moving up thru 500 fpm going towards 1000', then push the yoke forward while rapidly cross-checking outside for the horizon and the needle movement. The nose will be coming level with the horizon at the exact moment that the needle stops moving. This is the moment you stop elevator input. Watch the needle. When it moves up, lightly push forward until the upward movement stops, and freeze the elevator there. The needle laggingly returns to zero.

Go in the opposite direction. from level flight push forward until the vsi goes thru 500 towards 1000, pull back until the needle freezes for a moment, and that's where you freeze your elevator input.

Practice elevator movements, watching the needle movement, and stopping the needle movement with opposite elevator movement until the needle stops, then stop your movement. Continuing to move the elevator until the needle starts moving in the opposite direction is the cause of over-controlling.

That's how we do the elevator when landing, except we're using the outside plane of the runway to make continuously small adjustments to the elevator to get a 'near-zero' rate of descent. Learning to control the vsi just takes the same amount of determination that we spend on many other areas.

This technique I've used for many years, since learning helicopter instruments, but it has recently shown up in the FAA Instrument Flying Handbook, in the chapter on helicopter instruments.

But that doesn't mean you can't use the skill in an airplane.

It is great for partial panel. In the typical 6-pack, the vsi and heading indicator are side-by-side. I use, and teach, the basic cross-check between heading and vsi for good pitch and roll control, or straight and level. In cruise flight, the airspeed is steady, so I really only have to concentrate on 2 instruments, HI and VSI. ZZZZZ
 
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