Steel vs Nickel Cylinders

DutchessFlier

DutchessFlier

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DutchessFlier
I would like to hear from experienced A&P's about your thoughts on installing OEM new cylinders and the use of steel vs nickel barrels. I understand the corrosion issues,etc. More interested in your field experiences with both materials and the lifespan of one vs the other.

BTW 3 of mine failed the wobble test at annual this year, and the 4th was marginal, but after 1400 hrs SMOH on the conversion, I'm not complaining. We sent them to a major shop, to look them over and try to reuse them with new valves, guides, pistons, etc., but they found cracks in 2, one was unable to be rebuilt, one was barely in spec to work with. I have narrow deck cylinders, and the core stock for rebuilt cylinders is not plentiful and I'm leaning to new OEM's anyway.

I'm in the process of replacing the jugs with new Lycomings and appreciate your information.

Thanks
 
Don't you mean chrome rather than nickel?
 
Morne said:
Don't you mean chrome rather than nickel?
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Not likely. Chromed cylinders (originally developed to allow reducing cylinder bores to "normal" diameter after boring them round after a TBO run) were promoted in the 70's as a means of eliminating corrosion but they cause more problems than they solved and AFaIK are no longer made or used.
 
My Aztec has parallel valve IO-540s, pretty similar overall to the cylinders in your plane.

In 800 hours of ownership, the right engine (which is now at 2100 SMOH, 100 past TBO) has had absolutely no problems with factory cylinders. They all have good compressions, weren't replaced or overhauled during the life of the plane, and I'm not even sure if they were new at the time of overhaul. Oil consumption is good.

On the left engine, the plane came with Superiors on. The compressions were always bad, but at 650 SMOH they got to the point where 3 out of the 6 cylinders weren't making legal compression, oil consumption was high, etc. I bought 6 new Lycomings and put them on. 400 hours later, the compressions are about perfect, oil consumption is almost nil, and the oil stays clean. Not a single problem.

I wouldn't spend the money on aftermarket cylinders for a Lycoming. For Continentals, I've heard that the aftermarket cylinders can be better. I think the 310 has about half factory and half Millenniums. With 2000 hours on those engines (which is 300 past TBO), I'm still making good compression on most of the cylinders, a few are starting to get low.
 
gismo said:
AFaIK are no longer made or used.
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Farther knowing....: http://www.preferredairparts.com/lycoming_cylinders.htm

But going out of favor I hope.
Per RAM:
Although RAM is known for overhauling TCM Continental engines, the same excellent durability can just as easily be applied to cylinders for Lycoming engines, and we have done so. Reliability and performance is exactly as expected when applied to cylinders for Lycoming engines.

We expect an eventual industry switch to nickel+carbide™ coated bores; they are simply that much better. RAM is pleased to be in such a leadership position. We strongly encourage all Aircraft Mechanics and Service Managers to take advantage of our proven success with the Nickel Solution...New cylinders with nickel+carbide™ coated bores.

These cylinders are especially beneficial to the smaller single engine personal airplanes that do not fly as often. These airplanes can use the extra protection offered against corrosion, yet strong and wear resistant.

RAM Nickel New Cylinder Packages for both Lycoming and Continental TCM engines can be ordered from RAM Aircraft, LP 1-254-752-8381 Ask for: Parts Sales Department
 
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Moose
Lycoming makes a fine cylinder, I don't even look at the aftermarket when cylinder shopping for one.
 
As it was explained to me, RAM has an arrangement with ECI, which is why all their engines come with ECI cylinders. So I would take some salt with their statement on cylinders.
 
Hey Dunc!

Morne: No, chrome is out of the question.

Ted: I was also told to stick with Lycoming OEMs and the the OEM issues were mainly with Continentals.

I'm going for OEM Lycoming new cylinders, maybe I'm confused a bit here. Does Lycoming manufacture the new OEM nickel plated cylinders, or does Lyc send them out for the nickel plating?

I have also heard not such good news about ECI, Superior jugs, but again, I'm in new territory for me here. I'm looking to cut through the noise out there and be able to make a smart decision, based on my A&P's recommendation.

BTW the jugs were sent to Penn Yan for the analysis, and any new OEM's are going there first for a final inspection and setup before shipping out to my shop for installation.

I also sprang for a JPI EDM700 while everything was off the engine anyhow...man December suddenly got a whole lot more costly!
 
Lycoming cylinders aren't nickel plated (at least not as far as I know). What they are, though, is nitrided, which is what makes the barrels hard.
 
Every A&P is going to have a different opinion on what's best. I use steel for engines that get used, chrome/nickle/whatever for hangar queens. I usually prefer overhauled first runs over new. I've seen so much crap come from Lycoming that it pushed me to ECI. Bottom line is depending on which day and who was running the machinery, any brand can be the worst or the best. Rest assured that whatever you choose, when one fails there will be ten people asking why you didn't install brand X, which is so much better.
 
tyndall said:
Every A&P is going to have a different opinion on what's best. I use steel for engines that get used, chrome/nickle/whatever for hangar queens. I usually prefer overhauled first runs over new. I've seen so much crap come from Lycoming that it pushed me to ECI. Bottom line is depending on which day and who was running the machinery, any brand can be the worst or the best. Rest assured that whatever you choose, when one fails there will be ten people asking why you didn't install brand X, which is so much better.
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You apparently do not understand what this statement means.

"" The Nickel+Carbide™ process is a coating consisting of extremely hard silicon carbide particles in a nickel matrix. The high hardness of the silicon carbide particles effectively prevents wear from occurring throughout the life of the cylinder. ""

From my link above
 
Tom-D said:
You apparently do not understand what this statement means.

"" The Nickel+Carbide™ process is a coating consisting of extremely hard silicon carbide particles in a nickel matrix. The high hardness of the silicon carbide particles effectively prevents wear from occurring throughout the life of the cylinder. ""

From my link above
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Don't assume. :rolleyes: What's written on the tin may or may not be true in the field. Nikasil is great, except when it isn't.
 
tyndall said:
Don't assume. :rolleyes: What's written on the tin may or may not be true in the field. Nikasil is great, except when it isn't.
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I have 3 sets of these in service, and none have any problems nearing TBO. 1 set had a ring change at 300 hours but no problems after that.

Nickel chrome is for better wear, not primarily for corrosion, is the point I was trying to make.
 
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On my second set of ECI Titan Lycoming Cylinders with their nickle-carbide coating and completely happy with them... Ring seating was almost instantaneous - about 18 minutes by the head temperature gauges...

Of course, I would also be happy with a pair of NEW Lycoming engines with OEM cylinders - except I cannot afford them

denny-o
 
We sell a lot of engine overhauls with new Lycoming cylinders. Never had a problem. We do offer ECI Titan Cerminil as an option worth consideration for low utilization aircraft. I Have three 4 cylinder Lycomings with Cerminil cylinders chosen because they can't rust. Charlie Melot Zephyr Engines
 
Charlie!!!

Thanks for responding...you're reputation is legendary and your advice is priceless!!!
 
charlie said:
We sell a lot of engine overhauls with new Lycoming cylinders. Never had a problem. We do offer ECI Titan Cerminil as an option worth consideration for low utilization aircraft. I Have three 4 cylinder Lycomings with Cerminil cylinders chosen because they can't rust. Charlie Melot Zephyr Engines
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http://www.eci.aero/pages/products_advantage.aspx

Nickel+Carbide™ processed cylinder bores are more durable than steel in many operating situations. Durability enhances the ability of the engine to reach TBO without undergoing a costly mid-time top overhaul due to premature bore wear or corrosion. Furthermore, most first run cylinders that incorporate the Nickel+Carbide™ process can be rejuvenated by the engine overhauler, fitted with new rings and reinstalled on the engine being overhauled.

The Nickel+Carbide™ bore is warranted against premature wear and corrosion for a period of 60 months. No other cylinder bore, whether coated, thermal processed, or thermal treated carries a warranty of this magnitude.

» Learn more about Nickel+Carbide™
 
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We just put a set on an under (not) flown Cherokee we shall see if they avoid rust better than the nitrided barrels did.
 
Skylane81E said:
We just put a set on an under (not) flown Cherokee we shall see if they avoid rust better than the nitrided barrels did.
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What is nitriding ?

nitride |ˈnītrīd| noun Chemistry
a binary compound of nitrogen with a more electropositive element.
verb (usu. as noun nitriding) Metallurgy
heat steel in the presence of ammonia or other nitrogenous material so as to increase hardness and corrosion resistance.

why shouldn't it corrode? It's hardened steel, that's all.
 
Tom-D said:
What is nitriding ?

nitride |ˈnītrīd| noun Chemistry
a binary compound of nitrogen with a more electropositive element.
verb (usu. as noun nitriding) Metallurgy
heat steel in the presence of ammonia or other nitrogenous material so as to increase hardness and corrosion resistance.

why shouldn't it corrode? It's hardened steel, that's all.
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If my memory of chemistry is correct, once a bond is formed with nitrogen it'd take a lot of energy to break that bond. What that means is that the opportunity for corrosion with other elements (such as oxidation) is reduced since nitrogen bonds are prevalent across the surface.
 
Clark1961 said:
If my memory of chemistry is correct, once a bond is formed with nitrogen it'd take a lot of energy to break that bond. What that means is that the opportunity for corrosion with other elements (such as oxidation) is reduced since nitrogen bonds are prevalent across the surface.
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It really depends on the compound in question. Many explosives contain nitrogen/carbon bonds. The reaction products are nitrogen gas and some nitrogen oxides.

Having said that, it does appear that nitriding confers some corrosion resistance.

Principal reasons for nitriding are:
  • To obtain high surface hardness
  • To increase wear resistance
  • To improve fatigue life
  • To improve corrosion resistance (except for stainless steels)
  • To obtain a surface that is resistant to the softening effect of heat at temperatures up to the nitriding temperature
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Ref: http://steel.keytometals.com/articles/art117.htm
 
The biggest reason for nitriding the cylinders is to get the hardness out of them. On Jaguar V12s, they'd nitride the crank in order to make it harder, too.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
It really depends on the compound in question. Many explosives contain nitrogen/carbon bonds. The reaction products are nitrogen gas and some nitrogen oxides.
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Obviously I'm no expert but I'm fairly certain that cylinders are made of metal, not explosive compounds. As always, YMMV.:rolleyes:
 
Tom-D said:
What is nitriding ?

nitride |ˈnītrīd| noun Chemistry
a binary compound of nitrogen with a more electropositive element.
verb (usu. as noun nitriding) Metallurgy
heat steel in the presence of ammonia or other nitrogenous material so as to increase hardness and corrosion resistance.

why shouldn't it corrode? It's hardened steel, that's all.
Click to expand...

Just a surface modification of the metal, so it rusts. The last set of jugs was fugly, odds are the curent set will be as well if it fails to move for 3 years out in the weather again:mad2:
 
Clark1961 said:
Obviously I'm no expert but I'm fairly certain that cylinders are made of metal, not explosive compounds. As always, YMMV.:rolleyes:
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Looks to me like you made a blanket comment (requoted below) and yes, some metal-nitrogen bonds are explosively unstable, notably those in lead azide. Silver azide is another example. Sodium azide is commonly used as the gas source in airbags.

Clark1961 said:
If my memory of chemistry is correct, once a bond is formed with nitrogen it'd take a lot of energy to break that bond. What that means is that the opportunity for corrosion with other elements (such as oxidation) is reduced since nitrogen bonds are prevalent across the surface.
Click to expand...
 
Cap'n Jack said:
:rolleyes: looked pretty clear to me.
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Isn't it funny how we all see what we want to see. Step back just a bit and read the whole statement. Include the part that includes "surface". Now, to where exactly was I referring with respect to the nitrogen bond?
 
Clark1961 said:
Isn't it funny how we all see what we want to see. Step back just a bit and read the whole statement. Include the part that includes "surface". Now, to where exactly was I referring with respect to the nitrogen bond?
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Whatever you want to believe.
 
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