STCs in public domain

[Tom-D]

First you search here :
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgSTC.nsf/MainFrame?OpenFrameSet

To find if the STC is being supported by the holder, If it isn't.
1. Contact the type club for your aircraft, see if any one, has a copy. or the number.
2. once you have the number, you can fill out the 337's block 8 saying that you applied that STC to your aircraft.

But

Your A&P-IA that will approve that 337, will need to inspect the installation as per the directions given. This 337 does not require FSDO approval. (the STC is approved data)

Getting the paper? and the parts? good luck with that.

Your A&P-IA's PMI at FSDO can help getting the paper for the STC but they need the number of the STC.

 

[Stewartb]

Here's the "official" advice regarding STCs that are no longer supported. The permission statement requirement is the sticky point. Without it the STC isn't applicable. The FAA would need to sign off a deviation from the permission statement requirement from what I understood when I asked FSDO about it.

http://www.faa.gov/aircraft/air_cert/design_approvals/stc/stc_install/

 

[Tom-D]

Here's the "official" advice regarding STCs that are no longer supported. The permission statement requirement is the sticky point. Without it the STC isn't applicable. The FAA would need to sign off a deviation from the permission statement requirement from what I understood when I asked FSDO about it.

http://www.faa.gov/aircraft/air_cert/design_approvals/stc/stc_install/

The first statement is true for those STC that have a holder. Those STC's in public domaine have no holder, they are the publics.

OBTW, the FAA at FSDO never sees a 337 installing the STC The A&P-IA can sign the return to service block and send the FAA's copy directly to OKC. which gets entered into the aircraft's history folder. The FSDO would normally not see the 337 until they had reason to look up the folder.

Have an accident, see if FSDO doesn't bring that folder with them to investigate the accident.

 

[SkyHog]

I never got STC purchasing. Are you basically paying for the intellectual property??

 

[Tom-D]

I never got STC purchasing. Are you basically paying for the intellectual property??

That's pretty much it. and in many cases the kit to install, they may hold the parts manufacturing copy rites too.

The Pederson auto fuel is a good example, you get the kit, along with the paper work. the kit is only some placards but it is the only place you can get them.

 

[SkyHog]

That's pretty much it. and in many cases the kit to install, they may hold the parts manufacturing copy rites too.

The Pederson auto fuel is a good example, you get the kit, along with the paper work. the kit is only some placards but it is the only place you can get them.

Aside from morality, what would keep one from making their own placards and doing it themselves? Would the STC owner have to sue, or does the FAA have a pseudo library of STCs that they reference when someone applies one of these?

 

[ahkahn]

I never got STC purchasing. Are you basically paying for the intellectual property??

At one level, yes, but you are really purchasing the "rights to make money". I would classify purchasing an STC in the same category as buying patent or even buying a liquor permit from a bar/restaurant.

 

[Tom-D]

Aside from morality, what would keep one from making their own placards and doing it themselves? Would the STC owner have to sue, or does the FAA have a pseudo library of STCs that they reference when someone applies one of these?

I don't know the civil side of the legal stuff.

That said, if you were making the kit, (no matter the parts) and selling them I'm certain you'd hear from the STC holder's lawyer.

If you made a copy to replace a placard for a STC you already hold, I think that would be a different matter.

 

[Stewartb]

You're buying a legal instrument. A supplemental type certificate legally amends your aircraft TC and with that it is exposed to liability.

 

[Tom-D]

You're buying a legal instrument. A supplemental type certificate legally amends your aircraft TC and with that it is exposed to liability.

With STCs in public domaine, You are not buying anything,, you have no seller.

With any STC that has a holder, you are buying approved data that changes the TCDS for your aircraft. to save the process of the field approval.

 

[PaulMillner]

First you search here :
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgSTC.nsf/MainFrame?OpenFrameSet

To find if the STC is being supported by the holder, If it isn't.
1. Contact the type club for your aircraft, see if any one, has a copy. or the number.
2. once you have the number, you can fill out the 337's block 8 saying that you applied that STC to your aircraft.

But

Your A&P-IA that will approve that 337, will need to inspect the installation as per the directions given. This 337 does not require FSDO approval. (the STC is approved data)

Getting the paper? and the parts? good luck with that.

Your A&P-IA's PMI at FSDO can help getting the paper for the STC but they need the number of the STC.

Tom,


Where does the FAA state that an unsupported STC becomes public domain? I don't see that in the regs, and as a matter of common law, it wouldn't seem to follow... Just 'cause I don't want to support you, why should I lose ownership rights to my STC?


Paul

 

[Tom-D]

Tom,


Where does the FAA state that an unsupported STC becomes public domain? I don't see that in the regs, and as a matter of common law, it wouldn't seem to follow... Just 'cause I don't want to support you, why should I lose ownership rights to my STC?


Paul

I do not know if the FAA states that in writing or not, The local FSDO guidance is it is the IAs responsibility to determine if the applicant has the permission to use the approved data.



When you own the rights to the STC, you are not required to sell the data, you may choose who you sell to.

The STCs that are in public domain are those that no longer have an owner.

I have found that the type clubs have copies of the public domain STC that apply to their type of aircraft.

With all that understood, It is still up to the A&P-IA if they want you to prove you have the rite to use the Approved data in the STC.

 

[poadeleted20]

Aside from morality, what would keep one from making their own placards and doing it themselves? Would the STC owner have to sue, or does the FAA have a pseudo library of STCs that they reference when someone applies one of these?

The FAA relies on the mechanic doing the alteration not to violate the FAA regulations on point, i.e., not to perform an alteration under an STC without the owner presenting the STC authorization from the STC holder. However, one supposes an unscrupulous mechanic could use the instructions, etc., from one plane with the STC legally performed to perform the same alteration to another plane and then submit the 337 to the FAA falsely certifying the work was done legally (i.e., with the STC holder's permission). In addition, many STC's require unique parts provided by the STC holder, and it's hard to beat that one. Beyond that, it would turn up only if the aircraft was involved in a situation where a full FAA review of its maintenance records was performed.

 

[poadeleted20]

Here's the "official" advice regarding STCs that are no longer supported. The permission statement requirement is the sticky point. Without it the STC isn't applicable. The FAA would need to sign off a deviation from the permission statement requirement from what I understood when I asked FSDO about it.

http://www.faa.gov/aircraft/air_cert/design_approvals/stc/stc_install/

The applicable portion for the orphaned STC's is this:

I can't find the supplemental type certificate holder. What do I do now?

If the mail you sent was returned "undeliverable" and there is no phone listing for the holder, please contact the issuing FAA office. Supplemental type certificates are approved and issued through the FAA Aircraft Certification Office (ACO) which serves the geographic area of the supplemental type certificate owner’s residence.

IOW, if the STC holder has disappeared, the FAA issues the authorization to use that STC instead of getting it from the STC holder as normal. But you will need to make that request to the ACO which "owns" that STC and receive the STC certificate for your plane from that ACO before your mechanic can legally perform the alteration and sign off the 337.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Getting the paper? and the parts? good luck with that.

That's what I love about Wacos!

ALL the paper is in the Smithsonian.

 

[Tom-D]

That's what I love about Wacos!

ALL the paper is in the Smithsonian.

Another fine example is the Fairchild 24, the Fairchild club has all the paper too, plus over 4000 blue prints scaned into a CD that you can get for pocket change.

 

[Tom-D]

The applicable portion for the orphaned STC's is this:
IOW, if the STC holder has disappeared, the FAA issues the authorization to use that STC instead of getting it from the STC holder as normal. But you will need to make that request to the ACO which "owns" that STC and receive the STC certificate for your plane from that ACO before your mechanic can legally perform the alteration and sign off the 337.

There are few STCs in that category. many of the unsupported are still held by the estates of the developer, many of which will not sell any thing.
Some have been sold/given to the type clubs, and some since have been resented/revoked.

 

[poadeleted20]

There are few STCs in that category. many of the unsupported are still held by the estates of the developer, many of which will not sell any thing.

In which case you're stuck -- neither the FAA nor anyone else can legally give you something which belongs to someone else.

Some have been sold/given to the type clubs,

In which case you go to the type club, which is probably happy to sell you the authorization (type clubs are always hurting for revenue).

and some since have been resented/revoked.

Did you mean "rescinded"? But for ones either rescinded or revoked by the FAA, again, you're stuck.

 

[Tom-D]

In which case you're stuck -- neither the FAA nor anyone else can legally give you something which belongs to someone else.

Not really there are other ways to gain authorization to use the data.

which case you go to the type club, which is probably happy to sell you the authorization (type clubs are always hurting for revenue).

Wouldn't you pay the original holder ? what's the difference ? and much of the data the clubs hold is free to members.

you mean "rescinded"? yes, thanks But for ones either rescinded or revoked by the FAA, again, you're stuck.

Nope there are other ways to do aircraft modifications, but that's another thread.

 

[poadeleted20]

Not really there are other ways to gain authorization to use the data.

Perhaps you can tell us those ways.

Wouldn't you pay the original holder ?

Why pay someone who doesn't own the rights?

what's the difference ?

The difference is that if the original holder gave the rights to the club, the original owner no longer has the authority to grant the right to use the STC -- that right has passed to the club.

and much of the data the clubs hold is free to members.

The decision to give an STC use certificate to a member for free or for fee is a club decision, and they answer varies between clubs and possibly even for different STC's held by the club.

Nope there are other ways to do aircraft modifications, but that's another thread.

There are certainly other ways to do aircraft alterations, but if an STC has been rescinded/revoked, that particular avenue is closed, and you're stuck with either doing your own STC or getting field approval without using the data from the revoked/rescinded STC unless you can get the party which developed the data to give/sell it to you since the FAA deems those data proprietary to the original STC holder. But you'll still have to go through the whole STC/field approval process, which could be long and expensive, especially if the FAA had a technical reason for rescinding/revoking the STC.

 

[kontiki]

I found this reference -> https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/49/44704

Scroll down to (b) and it tells you that you need to have a permission letter to use an STC. That's something I've always obtained in airline work and is available for every STC I've run across for my Grumman Tiger so far.

 

[Henning]

The first statement is true for those STC that have a holder. Those STC's in public domaine have no holder, they are the publics.

OBTW, the FAA at FSDO never sees a 337 installing the STC The A&P-IA can sign the return to service block and send the FAA's copy directly to OKC. which gets entered into the aircraft's history folder. The FSDO would normally not see the 337 until they had reason to look up the folder.

Have an accident, see if FSDO doesn't bring that folder with them to investigate the accident.

How do STCs enter the Public Domain?

 

[Henning]

That's what I love about Wacos!

ALL the paper is in the Smithsonian.

All the paper to most things is in the Library of Congress as well, especially if there is an official sign off. The Smithsonian is also a great repository of boat and ship designs.

 

[Tom-D]

How do STCs enter the Public Domain?

by lack of support and the FAA's authority.

 

[Tom-D]

Every time you research one of these public domain STCs you will find the method to gain authority to use it is different. It is rare indeed to fine one that is a simply request to the ACO that will get it done.

Some times you will find a unsupported STC that was a one time STC but has the data/engineering you need to gain approval to install it on the project.

also you may find that the FAA does not have it listed, What Then? IF you have the data/engineering, you can use a DER to approve it.

It is as simple as knowing the avenues to take to meet the requirement of the situation. When Ron gets his IA he will know these things.

 

[Tom-D]

Perhaps you can tell us those ways.

Why pay someone who doesn't own the rights?

The difference is that if the original holder gave the rights to the club, the original owner no longer has the authority to grant the right to use the STC -- that right has passed to the club.

The decision to give an STC use certificate to a member for free or for fee is a club decision, and they answer varies between clubs and possibly even for different STC's held by the club.

There are certainly other ways to do aircraft alterations, but if an STC has been rescinded/revoked, that particular avenue is closed, and you're stuck with either doing your own STC or getting field approval without using the data from the revoked/rescinded STC unless you can get the party which developed the data to give/sell it to you since the FAA deems those data proprietary to the original STC holder. But you'll still have to go through the whole STC/field approval process, which could be long and expensive, especially if the FAA had a technical reason for rescinding/revoking the STC.

yer nit picked Ron, go back and read what was written.

 

[N801BH]

Another PERFECT example on why to go the EXPERIMENTAL route.....

I never want to see another STC,,, 337 or any other FAA BS.........

 

[Tom-D]

Another PERFECT example on why to go the EXPERIMENTAL route.....

I never want to see another STC,,, 337 or any other FAA BS.........

You do realize that there are folks here That do not agree with you. I would not ride in any aircraft built in some freaks garage that was built as a learning experiment.

 

[N801BH]

You do realize that there are folks here That do not agree with you. I would not ride in any aircraft built in some freaks garage that was built as a learning experiment.

That is their loss..............

 

[Henning]

by lack of support and the FAA's authority.

I'm not sure what mechanism exists to do that. They can let you support one you own, but without a release, they have to time out.

 

[Tom-D]

I'm not sure what mechanism exists to do that. They can let you support one you own, but without a release, they have to time out.

The FAA does not track every STC they ever issued, some one must bring attention to a STC that is not being supported.

Maybe even then they may not pick it up.

 

[Henning]

The FAA does not track every STC they ever issued, some one must bring attention to a STC that is not being supported.

Maybe even then they may not pick it up.

But who provides the release on intellectual property?

 

[Tom-D]

But who provides the release on intellectual property?

Maybe no one has that legal authority. but that does not mean you can not use the same data.

If you can show the FAA airworthiness inspector that will sign block 4 of the 337 requesting field approval that a like aircraft make and model was modified in this manor and flew X hours, by having a copy of the 337 that applied that engineering to N...... they can approve the field approval.

 

[Henning]

Maybe no one has that legal authority. but that does not mean you can not use the same data.

If you can show the FAA airworthiness inspector that will sign block 4 of the 337 requesting field approval that a like aircraft make and model was modified in this manor and flew X hours, by having a copy of the 337 that applied that engineering to N...... they can approve the field approval.

If you use the same data, you are violating copy right laws if you do not have permission. You either need the STC or some other letter establishing that permission or you are a felon at the value of most STCs.

If you cannot show permission, the FAA will not sign off.

 

[Tom-D]

If you use the same data, you are violating copy right laws if you do not have permission. You either need the STC or some other letter establishing that permission or you are a felon at the value of most STCs.

If you cannot show permission, the FAA will not sign off.

you are not applying the STC. That is the intellectual property

 

[Henning]

you are not applying the STC. That is the intellectual property

No, the data that makes up the STC is the intellectual property. The STC is just the FAA's blessing to apply those ideas to a certified aircraft.

 

[Tom-D]

No, the data that makes up the STC is the intellectual property. The STC is just the FAA's blessing to apply those ideas to a certified aircraft.

Do you understand what block 8 of the 337 contains?

Do you know how you would get the 337s for the old fuselage?

If the 337 of the old fuselage says in block 8 " installed STC ______ IAW the STC instructions ".

Now you have a number to chase. It may lead you to a dead end, it may not. but now you are one step closer to what was approved.
You may find the engineering was completed by a DER, who may simply approve that engineering for your aircraft.

You can chase these old STCs a dozen different ways.

You never have to steal any thing. all you must do is find the engineering data, who owns it, and determine what it will take to gain approval.

I've have found the STC's owner was the custodian of their fathers estate, they didn't know what they were holding.

Now when you know the STC's number you can chase it to the ACO who issued it, report it as unsupported, and beg permission to use it.

There is always a way, even if you must re-invent the wheel

 

[Henning]

I don't care what it contains, if you refer to data someone else developed, you are refering to their intellectual property. If you can get the FAA to sign off on that without an STC or another letter of permission, good for you. As long as nobody with a vested interest realizes it, you won't be sued, otherwise you will.

 

[Richard]

The course of this discussion reminds me of the research required in historical renovations. Now I know hardly a thing about STCs but what I gather of what Tom is saying is there are ways...it's just up to the man to figure it out.

That reminds me of a renovation in which I was involved. A sticking point was the building owner insisted on exactly matching a series of porcelain moldings used for the interior and the exterior trim. After weeks of research I was able to track down the company that made those moldings.

The company was still in business (good/bad news) but were no longer in the business of making decorative trim. The good news was I had someone to probe for knowledge. The bad news was they refused to release any information of their proprietary work. They wouldn't even divulge the chemical compositions of their glaze.

Long story short, it took some time but I finally got one of the old men at the company to mail old full color company brochures which featured information which was not so proprietary in those days. It just so happened that the back of some of those brochures featured hand scribbled notes from yesteryear of a conversation between the production foreman and his chemist. I took that information to a ceramicist I had used before. It took weeks of failed results before we finally were able to produce results which were very satisfactory to the project owner. This effort literally saved the project for absent this, the owner was considering demolishing the building. It ended up that he received recognition from local and national historical societies for the accuracy of the renovation.

It seems this discussion is about the exchange of information. Of that I say where there's a will, there's a way.

 

[Geico266]

You do realize that there are folks here That do not agree with you. I would not ride in any aircraft built in some freaks garage that was built as a learning experiment.

Neither would I! That is why I stick to kit planes built by people who know what they are doing and have the plane inspected by EAA Tech counselors and have the FAA issue an airworthness certificate after inspection.