Status of FAA Third Class Medical Exemption

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bbchien said:
Well actually that has been looked at in reverse:

Frequency of CAD by pilot group age (60-70):

3rd class, 25%
LSA pilots: 40%
Pilots illegally flying 3rd class 60%

Does this prevent accidents? I have a local guy, 78, Afib, sick sinus syndrome, who we did not reapply who was out in his skylane today.....he nearly hit the pumps, just about sandblasted the champ, etc etc etc...
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What's CAD, doc? And percent of what?

-Rich
 
Papa Foxtrot said:
This is very timely. I'm generally in agreement with your opinion of the federal gov't. I received a phone call today from a very nice lady in OKC. She was reminding me about a letter that they had sent me earlier this month concerning my records request. Seems they needed a copy of my driver's license to verify my signature and that, if it wasn't rec'd by next week, that I would need to send a new request and start over. Said that she had my file on her desk and if I would be so kind as to fax the copy to her, that she would get the records right out to me.

The letter I had received was very clear about the deadline and I had let it slip my mind. The FAA didn't owe me a phone call.

Extremely nice, courteous and professional! :yes:
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How professional - if the paperwork gathering dust on her desk isn't updated immediately they throw it away and start all over again - most efficient, and "professional".....:nonod:
Sad we've come to think this kind of bureaucratic nonsense is acceptable are grateful for them throwing us a crumb....:sad:
 
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oldgeek said:
Originally Posted by bbchien
That's all the funding Dr. Webster had.

Then I hope the powers making the decisions realize the skewed nature of their data. Of course, they may have already had their minds made up and were just looking for data that would justify their decision...
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That's walking a fine line between, a great observation and " never mind the data, I've got my mind made up". How do you think he got the data? They are AUTOPSY data after the wreck.
aviatingfool said:
How professional - if the paperwork gathering dust on her desk isn't updated immediately they throw it away and start all over again - most efficient, and "professional".....:nonod:
Sad we've come to think this kind of bureaucratic nonsense is acceptable are grateful for them throwing us a crumb....:sad:
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After six months off, just a reminder to be nice, David. The lady was nice to papafox. It's the system you're up against, and it's a problem if you drink too much. When you've had too much to drink you can't distinguish between the people, and your upset.

The rest of you if interested, know that I have had it this guy's personal abuse
 

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Moderators, this kind of personal attack is absolutely unacceptable and borderline illegal. Suggest you talk to the doctor about his posting habits. It got him kicked off the AOPA forums as a moderator and eventually as a contributor.

Doc - I imagine it makes you feel better to rag on others and suck up to a failing government that is making life more difficult for everybody on a daily basis. Real professional DOCTOR. :nonod:
Very impressive :no:
 
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aviatingfool said:
Moderators, this kind of personal attack is absolutely unacceptable and borderline illegal. Suggest you talk to the doctor about his posting habits. It got him kicked off the AOPA forums as a moderator and eventually as a contributor.

Doc - I imagine it makes you feel better to rag on others and suck up to a failing government that is making life more difficult for everybody on a daily basis. Real professional DOCTOR. :nonod:
Very impressive :no:
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Nothing illegal here, David. You're the one that anonymously abused me through my professional email. But even in the internet world you are responsible for your actions. You're not even close. You're the one that sent me the abuse, but you can't remember that. That's what DOCUMENTS are for.

You're the one that was given the six month holiday here.
You're so bass ackwards about the red board, too, except I understand that you can't even check that out anymore.

Try to be good.
REALITY CHECK. I'm done with you.
 
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bbchien said:
Nothing illegal here, David. You're the one that abused me through my professional email. Not even close. You're the one that sent me the abuse, but you can't remember that. That's what DOCUMENTS are for.

You're the one that was given the six month holiday here.
You're so bass ackwards about the red board, too.

Try to be good.
REALITY CHECK.
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Don't mess it up for him, it took him 5 edits to get the post just right.
 
aviatingfool said:
Moderators, this kind of personal attack is absolutely unacceptable and borderline illegal. Suggest you talk to the doctor about his posting habits. It got him kicked off the AOPA forums as a moderator and eventually as a contributor.

Doc - I imagine it makes you feel better to rag on others and suck up to a failing government that is making life more difficult for everybody on a daily basis. Real professional DOCTOR. :nonod:
Very impressive :no:
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I reckon that no one except those POA members who work for FAA, and possibly Ron Levy, have one-tenth as much knowledge of the inner workings of the agency as Doc Bruce has. He works with them every day to try to help airmen accomplish their goals within the system as it exists. That's not "sucking up." It's accepting reality and working within it as best you can.

You can rail against the system all you like. Hell, I think a lot of it is absurd, too. But it is what it is, and until and unless it's changed, it's what we have to deal with.

So if you want to rant and rave, that's fine with me. We need ranting and raving. I've done my share of it, too. Sometimes it leads to change. So rant on, my brother.

But in this case, you're choosing the wrong target. Doc Bruce isn't the problem. He's just a guy who wants to help airmen work within the system, with all its imperfections, to get them back in the air; and all the ranting and raving in the world won't do much good in that regard.

I advise you to aim your arrows more carefully.

-Rich
 
David (real); Flyingriki; aviating fool; Waldo; registered owner of Long EZ 762BH...whatever (folks can look you up in the FAA database to find out who you REALLY are, if they want): Your reality testing is pretty bad. Some of us who actually try to HELP others, post with our real names.

Cowards hurl abuse behind anonymity. But you're not really anonymous.

So I say again, please, "try to be good". You might not be able, but please, try.
 
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bbchien said:
That's walking a fine line between, a great observation and " never mind the data, I've got my mind made up". How do you think he got the data? They are AUTOPSY data after the wreck.
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OK, let's start at the beginning. What, exactly, was measured and compared and how big was the sample size? May I see a copy of the study?
 
There's nothing to start! You're talking to the choir.

It has almost no statistical power. N= about 5 in each group IIRC. It was an abstract at the Aerospace Medical Assn meeting last May.....it's a FINE line, like I say. Selection was narrow narrow narrow: Wrecks in which the pilot died, for whom an autopsy was performed. None (statistic) was presented by Dr. Webster- it was just an "observational" report.

But at least the ordinal prevalence (whcih is really what this looks at) are in the prejudicially expected order.

But the persuasive aspect is that on the other side of the argument is nothing. Nothing vs. nothing. Very persuasive. The problem remains, as before, that there is no data collection mechanism for LSA incapacitation accidents. There are just the anecdotal recollections of AFS 600.
 
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bbchien said:
The rest of you if interested, know that I have had it this guy's personal abuse
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As far as I can tell there aren't any exceptions in the PoA rule that states that no one is allowed to publicly post a private message without the permission of the author of said message.

Perhaps when you get a chance you should consider editing your message and remove those attachments that violate that PoA rule? You might find that material more usefully shared with the moderators if you want the abuse dealt with.

Otherwise I think you put the moderators in an uncomfortable position with regard to consistent enforcement of one of the more explcit rules of the forum.
 
Thank you Jim. The abusive POA PM was removed. He's done the same to me on the redboard, too.

So much for trying to help people out.
 
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bbchien said:
Thank you Jim. The abusive POA PM was removed. He's done the same to me on the redboard, too.

So much for trying to help people out.
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It's ok, Doc... We (well most of us) can read 'twixt the lines. Your credibility is pretty well established. :D
 
bbchien said:
Thank you Jim. The abusive POA PM was removed. He's done the same to me on the redboard, too.

So much for trying to help people out.
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Hi Doc,
If you wrestle with a pig, you get muddy and the pig enjoys it.

A little third party medical advice? It might help your BP to just put him on your ignore list.
Your allies know who you are, you truthfully don't even need to respond to things like that.

There's just no value in even replying to them.
 
I'm talking about actual accidents specifically caused by medical conditions that the 3rd class medical did not catch compared to actual accidents specifically caused by medical conditions that were not caught because the pilot was flying as LSP.

From my anecdotal reading, it appears either event is exceptionally rare, and the number of 3rd class events is greater than LSP events, but probably because there are more 3rd class pilots and hours flown than LS pilots and hours flown.
 
PilotAlan said:
Hi Doc,
If you wrestle with a pig, you get muddy and the pig enjoys it.

A little third party medical advice? It might help your BP to just put him on your ignore list.
Your allies know who you are, you truthfully don't even need to respond to things like that.

There's just no value in even replying to them.
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Respond to what? Anything here recently, :confused: no I didn't think so.

Pretty obvious who is attacking who here, except probably to Chien and the groupies. Actually the whining and group back slapping is getting a little tedious. :yesnod: Do your group hug and get off my back.

Yes , the ignore button works real well and I'll make judicious use of it, now that you reminded me, thanks!
 
View Post Today, 07:35 PM Posted in reply to aviatingfool's post "Re: Status of FAA Third Class Medical..."
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LOVE this button!
 
So this guy has 20 posts here, has been sending harrassing emails to Doc and pretty soon he will have half of us on ignore....
So what does the forum look like when you put everyone else on ignore? Kind of like being in an empty room talking to yourself?

I've seen some interesting cases of new folks getting off on the wrong foot here at POA, but this troll takes the cake.

I wouldn't put this chump on ignore.....this is WAY too entertaining! At least he got part of his handle right.
 
I just put the idiots in the penalty box after their first couple of mis-fires. Two reasons, I don't want the screen cluttered with their crap, nor do I want to waste time responding. When they have absolutely nothing to offer, why waste time reading it?

Fearless Tower said:
So this guy has 20 posts here, has been sending harrassing emails to Doc and pretty soon he will have half of us on ignore....
So what does the forum look like when you put everyone else on ignore? Kind of like being in an empty room talking to yourself?

I've seen some interesting cases of new folks getting off on the wrong foot here at POA, but this troll takes the cake.

I wouldn't put this chump on ignore.....this is WAY too entertaining! At least he got part of his handle right.
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Unregistered said:
So just for fun -- whats the status of the EAA/AOPA exemption? :)
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Comment period ended I think end of Nov.
I'm certainly not holding my breath. And Craig did GA airmern a disservice, I think, making a lot of guys think this was a certainty. A d_mned politician is what he is. We could have had the Aussie program here by last summer, if he and Hackman would only have listened.

"It's okay that e-brief has inaccuracies, because it goes to "decision makers""......my reaction to that was, "huh?".
 
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forgive me -- what is the aussie program called? (I'd love to read the details of what they get that we can only dream of...)
 
Unregistered said:
forgive me -- what is the aussie program called? (I'd love to read the details of what they get that we can only dream of...)
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The reg doens't have a name. But they essentialy have (proposed at the same time Craig went for the "exemption and refused discussion) which is essentially a CDL equivalent signoff good for 3200 lbs, day VFR 2 up at below 10,000 MSL. He wouldn't hear it. The Aussies won it last summer.
 
How is it even remotely okay to have inaccuracies in something that will likely seal the fate of medicals for quite some time to come? "huh?" indeed...

<grumble>...
 
This is the fate of GA for the foreseeable future. The base of the pyramid of GA flyers is the low cost end. I have stopped renewing my 3'rd class medical because it is just too much trouble. I believe I could do it but I fly for fun and it isn't fun anymore. Also, a rejection would kill the LSA option. Approve this exemption and a lot of us old farts will resume flying, the price of low end planes will pick up again and airports across the country will see an increase in business. My Cherokee used to be worth in the low 30s. Now I'd estimate it in the low 20's. I don't believe the 3'rd class medical exemption will be approved but it is totally ridiculous to believe that I safer flying an unfamiliar ragwing LSA than I would be flying my Cherokee 140 in which I have over 800 hours.
 
So what exactly does the CDL medical entail? With a complicated medical case, is it somewhat easier to pass than the 3rd class medical? Or is it just about the same as 3rd class?
 
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N918KT said:
So what exactly does the CDL medical entail? With a complicated medical case, is it somewhat easier to pass than the 3rd class medical? Or is it just about the same as 3rd class?
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Go to your state's webpage.

Most of them are seven specific organ system signoffs, the doc is permitted to give you a medical card good for 2 years if he can sign that you don't have a condition in that organ system. The BRAIN in on every state's form, if I recall correctly.

The states vary tremendously, but that has already been accepted with the original LSA and exceeds the scope of a post.
 
N918KT said:
So what exactly does the CDL medical entail? With a complicated medical case, is it somewhat easier to pass than the 3rd class medical? Or is it just about the same as 3rd class?
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I downgraded my CDL a few years ago because I wasn't using it anymore, and the process of getting it renewed was just too time-consuming and expensive to bother with. But here's how it worked when I had one.

The physical itself is just a basic, but fairly thorough physical. Most drivers get the physicals from their PCPs or from "company doctors" contracted by their carriers. The examinations can be administered by anyone whose state professional license allows them to perform physical examinations, unless they have been specifically disqualified.

As for the requirements, some conditions are always disqualifying, and a very few require federal waivers (for example, my DM2 waiver). The rest are judgment calls, meaning that the examiner can issue a certificate to a less-than-perfect specimen of a human being if he or she is convinced that whatever conditions they may have are adequately controlled.

One big difference from the FAA medical is that the word current can be found throughout the requirements. The driver cannot have a current diagnosis of blah blah blah. No one cares very much if the driver had an ADD diagnosis when he or she was 6 years old, or suffered from PTSD after returning home from Vietnam. What matters is the driver's current condition. And again, even a current diagnosis of blah blah blah may not be disqualifying if it's adequately controlled.

Another big difference from the FAA medical is that the examiner can simply issue a certificate if a condition has been corrected, without (literally) making it a federal case. For example, a driver who had a cardiovascular condition that has been surgically corrected can be issued in-office. Same goes for cataract removal and so forth. The driver had a condition. Once it's been corrected, it's no longer current, and the driver is qualified. No federal imprimatur is required.

In summary, the examiner is expected to use his or her clinical skills, consideration of the driver's history, consultation with the driver's personal physician, and common sense, to make a decision as to the driver's fitness at the time of the physical and for the duration of the certificate's validity.

The examiner does have the option of limiting the duration in the case of chronic condition that require monitoring, such as high blood pressure, diabetes (if the driver also has a waiver), and so forth.

Other than in those very few cases that require federal waivers, the federal government's involvement is limited to issuing the form -- and they don't want it back. Once the form is completed, it's given to either the driver or the driver's employer, or both. The only part the driver needs to carry or present to the DMV or a police officer is the "card" the examiner fills out (actually a folded-up piece of paper), and any waiver(s) he or she has been issued.

Like I said, that was the way it worked the last time I renewed my CDL. I don't have any reason to believe that it's changed since then.

If I had to make one suggestion to improve the process, it would be that I believe the only examiners who should be allowed to issue should be the driver's PCP or the "company doctor." As with FAA medicals, there are "pencil whippers" who will issue to anyone who has a pulse and who isn't so blind that they can't find the examiner's office. These examiners' business cards can be found on bulletin boards at truck stops. So yeah, there is some doctor-shopping that goes on.

-Rich
 
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Rich - I think your summary is close to if not the same as is being done today. My brother is a trucker. He was diagnosed with Type II diabetes. The company doc suggested for him to lose weight and retest before they moved forward with an exemption. The company put him in the yard for several months while he dieted. He eventually retested and was found to be fit to be on the road again. A common sense approach to his CURRENT condition.

Personally I am tired of explaining to the FAA my past conditions. I have always said the FAA is more concerned with documenting your medical history rather than if you are currently healthy. Not to mention the risk factors of the damage a fully loaded semi could do on the highway over our planes.
 
The sad truth is that when the AOPA "exemption" proposal was being discussed, the current F.A.S said that he would support a proposal "like that". sigh.

Craig Fuller is no Phil Boyer, for certain....
 
I supppose. I've given up on AOPA as long as the current leadership is there. We need pragmatism.

I spent five years working with Gary Crump and Luis Gutierrez getting SSRIs approved (in albeit a VERY narrow application). I don't have enough energy left for AOPA -BS.
 
Well, I've said before, if you don't like the AOPA leadership, you should start a proxy campaign for the next general meeting.

If someone comes forth with a plan, I'll sign over my vote!
 
bbchien said:
The reg doens't have a name. But they essentialy have (proposed at the same time Craig went for the "exemption and refused discussion) which is essentially a CDL equivalent signoff good for 3200 lbs, day VFR 2 up at below 10,000 MSL. He wouldn't hear it. The Aussies won it last summer.
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Still don't see why I need a CDL to fly my little spam can on a clear day. There are folks out there driving land yachts at similar velocities and even more gas that don't need one.

I have been told that the rate of medical "mishap" between glider pilots and power pilots are roughly the same. Those should be reasonable sized samples if one looks at historical data, which is relevant in this instance. If so, the medical scrutiny for Airmen simply isn't supported by the data.
 
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