Starting the IR path....

gprellwitz said:
Yeah, you might not like going missed, but you should know what it's like for real, and realize that sometimes you really have to go missed, and be prepared for it. I think it's too easy to get complacent during training and to think that the only time we go missed is when we (or the instructor) choose to do so.

OTOH, it can mess up an instructor's schedule horribly if they have another student booked after you and the airport to which you needed to go missed was your true destination! Can you say "get-there-itis?"
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I didn't mean that one should never go missed for training purposes. That was something that we did in my training frequently. In fact, one time he had us fly to another airport about 30 minutes away where mins were 800 (VOR approach) and the ceilings were 400. Not getting in there! It was great, we were solidly in the soup, shot the approach perfectly, no airport. Such training experiences are very valuable, and didn't screw up the schedule any. I don't think the weather ever offered us low enough to go missed on an ILS.

The bigger point I wanted to make was that for my personal flying, I'm perfectly comfortable shooting approaches down that low, but it's more bothersome that I might not get to land at the intended airport.
 
DutchessFlier said:
I was totally amazed how different actual was compared to the foggles! Mind you, not that I wasn't told how different it would be, but to experience it, and how damned fast your inner ear starts to play games, sheesh was a real eye opener!
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+1 but man my first time in IMC I took a chunk out of the seat. It was difficult but I loved it.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I didn't mean that one should never go missed for training purposes. That was something that we did in my training frequently. In fact, one time he had us fly to another airport about 30 minutes away where mins were 800 (VOR approach) and the ceilings were 400. Not getting in there! It was great, we were solidly in the soup, shot the approach perfectly, no airport. Such training experiences are very valuable, and didn't screw up the schedule any. I don't think the weather ever offered us low enough to go missed on an ILS.

The bigger point I wanted to make was that for my personal flying, I'm perfectly comfortable shooting approaches down that low, but it's more bothersome that I might not get to land at the intended airport.
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It's very hard to find weather below ILS mins that isn't widespread (at least around here). If I take off below mins locally (which I've only done once), it's with full tanks.

Typically the fog blankets hundreds of square miles with poor vis, while 1000' AGL it's clear and a million.

More typical IMC the lowest ceilings I've encountered so far are 400' or so with foggy/rainy/limited vis beneath.

That's the sort that gives you a great view of the runway lights until your reach 1/2 mile out and run smack into one of those low clouds. Talk about a tough decision! But decide you must: cram, clean, climb.

Non-precisions can also tease you with a peek 3 miles out, and a big, low cloud in between.

Going missed should most certainly be part of IR training, and the more realistic the conditions, the better.

On the flip side, a key part of the training needs to be descent and landing to a full stop in various weather conditions. You have to know what it's like to break out, dive for the runway, apply full flaps, touchdown and maintain centerline when it's wet, the windscreen is obscured by rain, and you're hydroplaning before the weight gets transferred.
 
I do agree that it can be hard to find localized areas that are below ILS mins and still allow you to get back in at home. Worse is that if a bunch of areas are hovering between at and below mins, chances are that'll change rapidly. Personally, I've never had to go missed for real since I got my IR. However, that's because on the rare days that it is below ILS mins, I generally just don't go, or I'll fly over areas with widespread fog and land elsewhere. I've taken off into slightly above minimums no shortage of times, but only once can I think of that was below. Even though it was OVC001 where I took off (at a familiar airport), it was actually MVFR within about 25 miles. No problem. Worst case scenario I lose an engine and just keep on flying on the spare to a place where I can get in.

On some approaches I've popped in and out of clouds, and even though I may have seen the ground a good several miles out, I ended up not seeing the runway until close to the missed approach point or decision height, due to those nice low clouds that'll jut out the bottom. Actually, in the PIT area by you is where I've seen it the most annoying. Definitely true to figure out how to put it on the ground afterwards.

However, as good as your instructor is, you're still at the mercy of the weather, and that will limit what you can do in your training. Once you start doing this stuff for real you'll end up pushing yourself (slowly) and getting those situations yourself. My training was great, but the reality is that what I've done now exceeds any of what I did in training. Not that my instructor wouldn't have taken me up in those conditions, it was that they just didn't exist for us typically.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Definitely true to figure out how to put it on the ground afterwards.
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Yep -- and it's doubly important to practice on non-precision GPS approach fields!

The runways are typically shorter, markings less standard (perhaps even faded), and the approach lights minimal.

It can be very hard to pick out the runway at MDA with enough room left to descend and land on the short strip of pavement.
 
And I believe it is still legal to take off (non-comm operations) when the field is below mins., but please folks--don't do it.
 
spiderweb said:
And I believe it is still legal to take off (non-comm operations) when the field is below mins., but please folks--don't do it.
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Commercial ops are allowed to take off below landing minimums, just not below the takeoff minimums which could be, and frequently are, less than the landing minimums. You just need a takeoff alternate.
 
Everskyward said:
Commercial ops are allowed to take off below landing minimums, just not below the takeoff minimums which could be, and frequently are, less than the landing minimums. You just need a takeoff alternate.
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Good clarification. So how I should have put it was, you can take of 0/0, but . . . .
 
spiderweb said:
Good clarification. So how I should have put it was, you can take of 0/0, but . . . .
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Oh OK, I don't think any commercial operator's ops specs allow for 0/0 takeoffs but I could be wrong. Ours doesn't.
 
Rob Schaffer said:
Any specific things you look for in choosing a CFII? :dunno:
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In addition to the usual instructor issues (personalities, syllabus, etc), for the IR, I'd suggest finding an instructor with substantial real-world operational IFR experience. Also, you want one who is not just willing, but happy to do instrument training in actual instrument conditions, and takes advantage of those conditions whenever practical.
 
Thanks. I want to talk to one more yet at the local airport, but out of the two I've talked to I think I've eliminated one of them. Still, thanks for posting good follow up questions to ask before I start handing over money.
 
Everskyward said:
Oh OK, I don't think any commercial operator's ops specs allow for 0/0 takeoffs but I could be wrong. Ours doesn't.
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Hehehe, my instructor taught me an evil lesson after I told him, "hey, I don't think a takeoff in 0/0 is such a big deal!"

We did it (in VMC, with me under the hood), and I was-ummm--let's phrase it this way: "extremely impressed with the concentration needed."
 
spiderweb said:
Hehehe, my instructor taught me an evil lesson after I told him, "hey, I don't think a takeoff in 0/0 is such a big deal!"

We did it (in VMC, with me under the hood), and I was-ummm--let's phrase it this way: "extremely impressed with the concentration needed."
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My IR Checkride started with the hood on, at the end of the runway.

It ended 1.4 later about 400' AGL at the end of the "circling approach."
 
spiderweb said:
Hehehe, my instructor taught me an evil lesson after I told him, "hey, I don't think a takeoff in 0/0 is such a big deal!"

We did it (in VMC, with me under the hood), and I was-ummm--let's phrase it this way: "extremely impressed with the concentration needed."
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That was part of my IR training, and just a matter of good practice.

One of the points my instructor made, though, was that the probability of it being truly 0/0 is very low, except for certain areas. The runway is straight, and you'll probably have some sort of reference. I've found him to be correct, but it will depend on where you fly.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
One of the points my instructor made, though, was that the probability of it being truly 0/0 is very low, except for certain areas. The runway is straight, and you'll probably have some sort of reference. I've found him to be correct, but it will depend on where you fly.
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If it was truly 0/0 like it is when are wearing a hood you wouldn't be able to taxi out to the runway anyway. I've seen weather reported 0/0 but that doesn't mean you can't see anything, just that it is below the lowest parameters of reporting.
 
Everskyward said:
If it was truly 0/0 like it is when are wearing a hood you wouldn't be able to taxi out to the runway anyway. I've seen weather reported 0/0 but that doesn't mean you can't see anything, just that it is below the lowest parameters of reporting.
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Exactly my thought. You'll be able to see something, and all you really need is to be able to follow the runway centerline until you're taking off, then follow your departure procedure.

Rob Schaffer said:
Why even risk training for 0/0 ?
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Because it won't be a true 0/0, and the training isn't a risk unless your instructor is asleep or waits too long before correcting your mistakes.

The primary risk of taking off into low IFR is hitting something. If you follow your departure procedure properly, that shouldn't be an issue. Certainly it's been proven that it typically isn't an issue. Thing is, in a plane that can't maintain altitude after losing an engine (which is certain twins and all singles), you always run the risk of being forced to a lower altitude where you will eventually impact terrain if you can't find an airport in time.
 
dmccormack said:
It's prescribed in the FAA's Instrument Flying Handbook.

:thumbsup:
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Must not have read to that point yet....

I ordered my IFR Flight File binder (recommended by a good friend of mine to have/use), my first set of approach plates, low-enroute chart and a New AOPA Hat :D
 
Rob Schaffer said:
Must not have read to that point yet....

I ordered my IFR Flight File binder (recommended by a good friend of mine to have/use), my first set of approach plates, low-enroute chart and a New AOPA Hat :D
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Gotta build up the flight bag!!

I gotta say... my "required IFR equipment" declined rapidly to a pen and some scrap paper. Plates and charts were in the airplane.
 
Well tonight I start a full 8 part IFR ground school. Looking forward to diving into the clouds
 
ISUHawkeye said:
Well tonight I start a full 8 part IFR ground school. Looking forward to diving into the clouds
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Awesome. Let us know how it goes.

Tomorrow I get checked out again in the flight schools SP model, and hope to get a little hood time too. It's been a year since I flown the SP, but the checkout should go fairly smoothly since over the past year I've been flying a C172 just not theirs.
 
Rob Schaffer said:
Awesome. Let us know how it goes.

Tomorrow I get checked out again in the flight schools SP model, and hope to get a little hood time too. It's been a year since I flown the SP, but the checkout should go fairly smoothly since over the past year I've been flying a C172 just not theirs.
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You know who to call for a safety pilot.:cornut:
 
Wow,.. do I have to start a rotation list ? :D Thanks guys, I'll be sure to call each of you at some point.

Ironically, had to cancel the checkout this morning due to the really thick haze and low clouds. Time to reschedule. It won't be till after Windwood that I'm looking for Safety Pilots most likely, if not more near Thanksgiving. But, then again, it will be cooler up there in the plane and you'll get to see some nice fall folliage. :cool2:
 
cameronbm said:
Rob,

Get your rating in that old, simple 172. You already know how to fly her and you already know her knobology. Don't add additional complexity to an already complex task. Save the sexy hardware for later.

+1 on practicing on a simulator
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Totally agree with that
 
After extensive thinking and review, I'm going with the Cessna 172SP for my training and subsequent IR Flying. It will fit my mission better once I have the ticket to start making some trips with my wife.

Took a checkout flight yesterday in the C172SP, and it went as expected.
I sqeaked in the first two landings and really made them nice. Then off to the practice area for some typical checkout stuff (stalls, slow flight, engine out). Donned the Zoggles :thumbsup: and began turns to headings, climbing 180* turns at 500 fpm, decents, etc. I really had to get adjusted to where things were on the panel as I was used to the non-standard panel in the C172H. I'd look for the DG, and it wasn't there,... ahh,. there it is. Glad I'm going to learn in this and get the standard location and scan down now. (I took a photo of the panel at the end to refresh myself at home.) After some vectors around PTW, I was asked if I wanted to try the GPS 6 back to Wings. Sure....

I flew my assigned headings and altitudes, the CFI setup the KLN 94. I was at 3500, directed to decend on heading to 2500. "mock ATC" then told me direct to LASBE intersection, which the CFI loaded and I began the approach. Held 2500 till LASBE, then turned PHILA and decended to 2000 once on heading to PHILA. Turned to PLAYS and maintained 2000.... looking pretty good if I say so myself. I had a tendancy to hunt the needle as I got closer to these fixes, but it wasn't to bad for my first time. Altitude and airspeed I kept really good at. The CFI was pressing buttons and doign all the multi-tasking, while giving me the quick rundown. I can see how this will become very busy for me later. At PLAYS, pulled out power to decend 500 fpm and leveled off at 1500, since we would break off and fly the pattern to 24, but I lifted the Zoggles and there was the runway! Wahoo! Pretty cool stuff.

Floated a bit for my third landing, but still set down nice and smooth. :cool2: Now to get a few flights in to get my comfort flow through emergencies and the scan.
 
AdamZ said:
Ok fair enough I guess the fairest way to handle this is for Rob to call all of us and the first one to arrive at Wings is safety pilot.:D
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So to make it fair based on distance to drive,.. call Gary M first, then Lee, Gary S, and then you :D,... or do you have to ride your bike instead of drive :confused:
 
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