Starting search for new plane.

Theboys

Theboys

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Theboys
I'm going to look for a different plane this winter. I have general idea of what I want but, was looking for few comments. Most probably I will go for the piper jetprop which is my top choice with the meridian being my second choice. Was just looking at the cessna 421c model but don't know much about. Also thought about the tbm 700 but it's not a major contender at this point. Any comments on these or other airframes I should be considering? I fly a malibu now so these are the planes I am comfortable with. I have looked at the epic also. Looks like a very nice setup.
 
Why isn't the TBM700 a contender?
 
Meh, just get a PC12
 
I don't know if you're interested in TP twins, but you can run a Garrett powered twin for just about the same money as you run any PT6 single or a 421C, all in. A Turbo Commander, MU-2, Conquest, B100 King Air etc. They burn 20-30% less than PT6's, cost about half as much to overhaul spread over the 5000/5400hr TBO, go faster and further and have more payload. But perhaps even more surprising is that they will cost as much to operate as a legacy twin like the 421C. Let's do a numbers comparison that I stole somewhere:

421C
GTSIO-520 overhaul: $70K/1600 hours
Exhaust: $10K/1600 hours
Oil changes: $250/50 hours
Magneto work: $1500/500 hours
Top overhaul: $15K/1600 hours (one per TBO)
Fuel: 22 GPH block/hr, $5.50/gal

Total works out to $68/hour without fuel, $188/hour with fuel.

MU-2/Turbo Commander/B100:
TPE331-10 overhaul: $225K/5000/5400 hours
Exhaust: none
Oil changes: $400/900 hours
Fuel nozzles: $800/400 hours
HSI: $40K/5000 hours (one per TBO)
Fuel: 37 GPH block, $3.50/gal

Total works out to $55/hour without fuel, $185/hour with fuel.

And compared to a single TP even then they end up a good deal. A PC12 will burn 70gal/hr doing 270kts. A MU-2 or Commander will do 54gal/hr doing almost 300kts. TBM will be faster, but it will also burn more fuel. An overhaul on a PT6 will never be less than $350K, even for the small ones. Probably closer to $400-500K for a single (P&W know how to charge for em as they have almost monopoly these days). You can do two Garretts for the same price.

So, if there's no cost penalty, you burn less gas, can go faster, can go further, have more useful load, why not have a twin?

You'll pay a little more at purchase compared to a 421C, but that's also value that you will get back when you sell, probably.
 

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Took a demo in a pc12. Really liked the Honeywell avionics but didn't care for the plane. Was big and would take my whole hanger thus leaving no room for other planes and it was noisy. Also had breakdown on demo where flaps wouldn't retract. All for 4.3 million! Thought the tbm was kind of slow for fuel burn and annuals are pretty expensive from friend who has one. Will have to research the mu100 some. Those figures look interesting. That's the kind of thing I was looking for from folks.
 
I'm biased towards Turbo Commanders as I own a prehistoric one myself, but for between $600K-1,5M you can get into the last models Gulfstream made, the so called Jetprop models. Most of them with the desirable -10 engines.

All the Jetprop models (840, 900, 980 and 1000) can be expanded to 474gals, and most already have it. All of them can be RSVM certified, but for some the push might not be worth the squeeze.

The 840 (690C) has a 5.2psi differential and is certified to FL340.
The 900 (690D) has a 6.7psi differential and is certified to FL320.
The 980 (695) has a 5.2psi differential and is certified to FL370.
The 1000 (695A) has a 6.7psi differential and is certified to FL350.
 

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Jetprop sales are hot right now. All of the PA46 models are moving. I've turned down four PA46 prebuys this week. If you find a Jetprop give me a call. I probably know the airplane or may have done a prebuy in the past.
 
Joe, if you want a cabin class Twin Cessna, buy a 414 or 414A. The 421's engines have a lot more issues, it will cost you an extra $100/hr just for those. You'll burn roughly 2x what you do in the Malibu for similar speed but a larger cabin and the extra engine.

Several people on the Twin Cessna forum have gone turboprop from their previous 414/421s recently. Every one of them has come back and said their costs go down due to Jet A being so much cheaper. These are first impressions rather than multi-year impressions. I didn't like flying the Commanders myself, but they are easy to fly, so could be a consideration. I also really liked flying the Cheyenne.

If you're interested in a Twin Cessna, I'd be glad to talk to you about them as there are a lot of small changes they made over the years, and newer isn't always better - just more expensive.
 
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Kevin. Jetprop is top of my list still. It will do about everything I need. The turbo commanders look interesting though. Not in huge hurry though so will keep looking. Ted I think I'm only interested in turbines right now. 421 looked little interesting but think I'd just keep the malibu instead. I do like the commander high wing and low height and big prop ground clearance. State of Nebraska had a Cheyenne they flew governor around in. Ran into him and his pilots one day and told them I hardly recognized the plane. I had never seen it with cowls on before! They agreed.
 
If you are going for a single engine turboprop, I'd go for a Caravan on amphib floats. :goofy:
 
Skydog, that would be too slow and one of my must haves is pressurization. Once you get used to flight levels it's hard to fly lower for trips. At one time I was interested in the kodiac quest though.
 
MU-2 also an option worth checking. They offer good performance and cheap to get into, but you need to do the SFAR training each year. As fast as the Commanders, but they don't have the same range.
 
Joe I'd agree a Twin Cessna doesn't offer you much vs the Malibu. I'd say the jetprop is your best bet unless you want a bigger cabin, in which case Commander is probably the best bet. The Cheyennes I've dealt have been reliable, but maybe they were unusual.

MU-2s are very efficient and very fast (the F models seem to be the cheapest to operate), however they also are a real handful. There's a reason there's SFAR training required for them.
 
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Looked at the evo few years ago and it's pretty nice, but need at least 6 seats. That's the downfall of jetprop is 6 seats but only useful load for 2or 3 with fuel. I can make that work though. Lots of fuel stops, but not such a problem the way they climb back up.
 
Or if you really want to leave everyone behind - Cheyenne 400LS. That thing is a beast. Does 350kts, goes for 2000nm, climbs to FL410 at 5000ft/min. It's insane. But nothing cheap about it.
 
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I liked it really well until nothing cheap about it. I can imagine. I want to go turbine but don't want to go crazy on cost ( but guess that's relative). I have several other planes to go slow or haul heavy. Just want a fast plane I can use on grass strips that's pressurized, fiki, cabin class.
 
I've flown quite a bit in several twins , twin commander 980, 1000, machen arrow star, and MU2. ( he also has a lot of time in a lear.) All of this right seat was done with one good friend who has about 14000 hours . His choice , hands down is the MU2. He claims is a wonderful airplane to fly and is the most versatile. I've been in a couple of short fields with him that amazed me. Also how it got out and climbed. He stressed that most MU2 accidents were due to poor training or lack of, pilot error including doing the wrong thing in an engine out situation. I am not twin rated so I can only give you his opinion. My favorites as a right seat were the MU2 and 2nd, the superstar.
 
Joe when are you going to hire me to fly you around? ;)
 
ktup-flyer said:
Citation Mustang seems like it's what you want. Or the premier 1
Click to expand...

Premier 1 would be a nice choice....2x speed and 2x climb 2x range over any jet prop and might get one around the same price.
 
Problem with jets is that they're only about 50kts faster than a TP, but burn about 3x times as much and can't go as far. And god help you if you get stuck below FL300. So on a 1000nm+ trip, you're faster door to door in a TP that doesn't have to stop. Biggest speed mod there is is long range. Here, again, Commanders shine. They'll beat anything in range except the Merlin.
 
The King Airs aren't very fast, but they are comfortable and reliable. Overall, Beech pinned the market right with them.
 
After all the suggestions and doing some research. Talked to my insurance company and such, I've decided to just have jetprop convert my Malibu to a jetprop. I get a 5 year, 2500 hr warranty and training for two pilots. I will have less into that than finding a different one and I know my plane. Takes them 12 weeks to complete conversion and they will take my engine and prop for trade. Thanks for all the input everyone.
 
So when do you send her in for conversion?
 
They have lot of openings right now. But I need to decide what other updates to do on it and figure out options they have available. On plus side the engine is still running well.
 
Theboys said:
After all the suggestions and doing some research. Talked to my insurance company and such, I've decided to just have jetprop convert my Malibu to a jetprop. I get a 5 year, 2500 hr warranty and training for two pilots. I will have less into that than finding a different one and I know my plane. Takes them 12 weeks to complete conversion and they will take my engine and prop for trade. Thanks for all the input everyone.
Click to expand...

What was the reason for the upgrade? Was your engine timed out or did you just want to go faster?
 
I think the turbine is a much better fit in the Malibu. Better takeoff and landing performance. Better climb and descents without worry about engine temp problems. They will give me a good trade on engine as they use them for courtesy spare to bring in broken malibus. I do mostly long trips in the Malibu and faster is good...right? I go from average burn of 16 or 17 gal at 5$ to 29 gal ar 2.50$ but with 25% more speed. I also am limited to fl250 with piston and it's working heck out of it there. It likes fl200 to fl220 much better. Turbine is fl270. At 4kts per 1000 ft that's almost 30kts free. The extra will get me over most weather I ever fly in also.
 
Theboys said:
I think the turbine is a much better fit in the Malibu. Better takeoff and landing performance. Better climb and descents without worry about engine temp problems. They will give me a good trade on engine as they use them for courtesy spare to bring in broken malibus. I do mostly long trips in the Malibu and faster is good...right? I go from average burn of 16 or 17 gal at 5$ to 29 gal ar 2.50$ but with 25% more speed. I also am limited to fl250 with piston and it's working heck out of it there. It likes fl200 to fl220 much better. Turbine is fl270. At 4kts per 1000 ft that's almost 30kts free. The extra will get me over most weather I ever fly in also.
Click to expand...

Sounds like a win to me! :yes:
 
Theboys said:
I think the turbine is a much better fit in the Malibu. Better takeoff and landing performance. Better climb and descents without worry about engine temp problems. They will give me a good trade on engine as they use them for courtesy spare to bring in broken malibus. I do mostly long trips in the Malibu and faster is good...right? I go from average burn of 16 or 17 gal at 5$ to 29 gal ar 2.50$ but with 25% more speed. I also am limited to fl250 with piston and it's working heck out of it there. It likes fl200 to fl220 much better. Turbine is fl270. At 4kts per 1000 ft that's almost 30kts free. The extra will get me over most weather I ever fly in also.
Click to expand...

Sounds like a good plan.

If you did not already have a Malibu, what plane would you have selected?
 
Good logic, Joe. Stick with a good plane, just make it better. And resale on Jetprops is very good.
 
After looking all the suggestions over and including the king air,the Malibu pretty much wins in my opinion. Insurance for me was at least 3 or 4 times more for anything else. My insurance broker told me,that in fact,the Malibu with a turbine might be slightly cheaper at the same hull values. All of the other choices had either hourly checks or phase checks. Fuel burn was twice or close to it for all other choices for same speeds. I know everyone feels the plane they own is the best but after flying a Malibu it's hard to find anything that will do the same things for close to the cost. The two things I personally don't like about a Malibu, are the ground steering, as its really touchy and the other is engine issues. Mainly keeping it cool. I can live with cabin size and useful load. They also are made in the United States and you can get parts fairly easy, if not cheaply. I really don't haul more than 4 people around often and usually Just my wife and I, and I can leave fuel if I want to load up. The turbine will take me into the flight levels in less than 20 minutes so a fuel stop isn't major. I own other planes also and thought when I bought Malibu that I would use those for short trips but after owning the Malibu few years have found when I go somewhere it's in the Malibu. It is good in low levels,more so than I thought it would be. Only put about 30 hours on the Cessna 205 last year which was my go to plane.
 
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