Starting off here

[cowman]

Hello there, forum.

I'm not a pilot, nor am I currently doing any training. The only pilot(or rather former pilot) I know is my father. He had a Cessna 180 before I was born and talked about it fondly but of course it was gone before I existed. Also, unfortunately he's older and his memory isn't very good so he can't tell me much about it now.

I've only had the opportunity to fly a handful of times, mostly commercial and once on a corporate turboprop. I've enjoyed it every time(well the part between sitting down in my seat and when it was time to get off the plane anyway). I hate being in the back looking out the little window- I wanna be up front!

Aside from that, I relocated to Eau Claire, WI a few years back and since then my wife and I are constantly making 5,8, and 12 hour drives to see family and friends. The thought in my head keeps getting louder and louder every time I've been sitting in a car seat for an entire day grumbling about the other drivers- If I had a plane I could have slept in today and we'd still be there by now.

Cutting an 8 hour drive down to a 3 hour flight would mean a lot for my wife and I. It would make a lot of things we miss because of time constraints a lot more reasonable... and I think I'd enjoy flying a lot. The local airport has a Cessna 152 and 172 for rent and they offer flight instruction according to their website... I'm VERY tempted. Actually I've been VERY tempted for the past year but haven't taken the first step yet.


Anyway, enough with my life story. Here are my questions.

1. What should my first step be? I think for what I want to do I need a private pilot certificate and I'd probably want to be certified for IFR. You know... besides actually finding someone to take me up once to make sure it's something I really want to do.


2. I'd expect a typical trip for me to be me and my wife with some weekend baggage flying 250-400 miles. Mostly to smaller airports, but we do have some friends in the Chicago area too... although if flying into that area is as scary as driving into it maybe we can skip that. I don't have anywhere in mind that would involve flying over mountains or any large bodies of water, at least not yet. I do wonder though if I might want to pick up a couple of friends and go somewhere with 4 of us in the plane. However, I've read that a lot of the common 4-seat airplanes can't really take off with 4 people and cargo due to weight. How does that work out?

3. Speaking of cessna 172s I see our local airport has one for rent. That might be a lot cheaper but how does that typically work? They have the price listed per hour so is that for how many hours I have the plane, or how many hours I'm actually flying it? I ask because Ideally I'd like to head down somewhere for a weekend and fly back. Seems like renting might be cheaper, but again I'm not sure if this is a practical game plan or not.

4. The Cessna 172 seems to be kind of the go-to beginner 4-seater aircraft but what are other choices that someone of my experience level and requirements should look at? I should be able to put 50-60k down on something by spring next year. I wouldn't want to spend any more than about $120k overall... I try to avoid financing things. Can I get something that's safe/sound and not a rattle trap for that kind of money? What about something that will actually carry 4 adults, baggage, and fuel? From the used ads I have been browsing it looks as if time on the airframe & engine and what electronics are installed are what determines the price more than the model year, is that about right?

5. Am I crazy? My wife doesn't think so, so I guess that's a good sign right?

 

[Threefingeredjack]

1. What should my first step be? I think for what I want to do I need a private pilot certificate and I'd probably want to be certified for IFR. You know... besides actually finding someone to take me up once to make sure it's something I really want to do.
Most flight operations offer discovery flights where you can go up with an instructor for an hour and get the opportunity to handle the controls.

2. I'd expect a typical trip for me to be me and my wife with some weekend baggage flying 250-400 miles. Mostly to smaller airports, but we do have some friends in the Chicago area too... although if flying into that area is as scary as driving into it maybe we can skip that. I don't have anywhere in mind that would involve flying over mountains or any large bodies of water, at least not yet. I do wonder though if I might want to pick up a couple of friends and go somewhere with 4 of us in the plane. However, I've read that a lot of the common 4-seat airplanes can't really take off with 4 people and cargo due to weight. How does that work out?
The carrying capacity of small planes is limited. You will hear the term "Useful Load" This is the total weight the plane will lift including fuel passengers and baggage. Typically to fill the seats you will not be able to fill the tanks.

3. Speaking of cessna 172s I see our local airport has one for rent. That might be a lot cheaper but how does that typically work? They have the price listed per hour so is that for how many hours I have the plane, or how many hours I'm actually flying it? I ask because Ideally I'd like to head down somewhere for a weekend and fly back. Seems like renting might be cheaper, but again I'm not sure if this is a practical game plan or not.
Rental is by the hour, measured by engine time. There is a device (Hobbs meter) which tracks engine operation. Most rental agreements have minimums if you are taking the plane overnight to offset lost revenue.

4. The Cessna 172 seems to be kind of the go-to beginner 4-seater aircraft but what are other choices that someone of my experience level and requirements should look at? I should be able to put 50-60k down on something by spring next year. I wouldn't want to spend any more than about $120k overall... I try to avoid financing things. Can I get something that's safe/sound and not a rattle trap for that kind of money? What about something that will actually carry 4 adults, baggage, and fuel? From the used ads I have been browsing it looks as if time on the airframe & engine and what electronics are installed are what determines the price more than the model year, is that about right?
There are aircraft produced by other companies in the same class as a Cessna 172. Yes sale value depends on equipment and engine/airframe time.

5. Am I crazy? My wife doesn't think so, so I guess that's a good sign right?

Flying is a sick twisted addiction.....welcome to the madness

 

[EppyGA]

Welcome to PoA, now open up your wallet and enjoy the ride

 

[dell30rb]

You'll get a lot of other responses i'm sure

The 250-400nm flights with your wife will he a fun trip with the rental 172. That type of trip is one GA is well suited for.

You can almost forget four people plus bags in a 172

120k will buy a LOT of plane. You can have a very nice airplane for that $

 

[dell30rb]

As for carrying four people, it really depends on how heavy you and your passengers are. For your budget you can find an aircraft that will do it though. Something like a 182 would be very comfortable for you + wife and can fit four plus light bags and maybe 3hrs fuel with reserve

 

[wabower]

How do you define "constantly" with respect to your 5-8-12 hour trips? How many of each per year?

 

[MAKG1]

The only part of Chicagoland that I'd expect any problem is the airspace within 5 miles of O'Hare. Even overflying Midway shouldn't be a problem. Well, don't fly low over Da Bears during a game.

As for getting there "fast," it certainly can work that way. I flew a 3.5 hour round trip over the weekend across California to Lake Tahoe, in a Cessna 172. It would have taken 8 hours in good traffic to drive there. Traffic was awful (and I flew over it at 120 MPH -- hehe).

But I think the motivation will need to be elsewhere. It's a lot of work to learn to fly. It's also a lot of fun, but it can get frustrating at times. I learned to fly for the view -- everything looks different from the air, and the view of the city from 2000 feet is quite different from the view even at 4000 feet, let alone the 35000 you get from an airliner. And the night flying is really cool, not at all like an airliner (unless you get to sit in the front seats).

 

[AdamZ]

Hello there, forum.

I'm not a pilot, nor am I currently doing any training. The only pilot(or rather former pilot) I know is my father. He had a Cessna 180 before I was born and talked about it fondly but of course it was gone before I existed. Also, unfortunately he's older and his memory isn't very good so he can't tell me much about it now.

I've only had the opportunity to fly a handful of times, mostly commercial and once on a corporate turboprop. I've enjoyed it every time(well the part between sitting down in my seat and when it was time to get off the plane anyway). I hate being in the back looking out the little window- I wanna be up front!

Aside from that, I relocated to Eau Claire, WI a few years back and since then my wife and I are constantly making 5,8, and 12 hour drives to see family and friends. The thought in my head keeps getting louder and louder every time I've been sitting in a car seat for an entire day grumbling about the other drivers- If I had a plane I could have slept in today and we'd still be there by now.

Cutting an 8 hour drive down to a 3 hour flight would mean a lot for my wife and I. It would make a lot of things we miss because of time constraints a lot more reasonable... and I think I'd enjoy flying a lot. The local airport has a Cessna 152 and 172 for rent and they offer flight instruction according to their website... I'm VERY tempted. Actually I've been VERY tempted for the past year but haven't taken the first step yet.


Anyway, enough with my life story. Here are my questions.

1. What should my first step be? I think for what I want to do I need a private pilot certificate and I'd probably want to be certified for IFR. You know... besides actually finding someone to take me up once to make sure it's something I really want to do.

Well first. Welcome to POA you will find a lot of great info here as well as a lot of great people. As to what to do first. Well before spending a bunch of green backs I recommend that you go to the local flight school and schedule a Discovery Flight. It should not cost that much, you should be able to take the controls with a flight instructor aboard as well. When you land you'll know if you have the bug or not.

If you have got the bug then the first step it to take lessons toward your private pilot. Don't worry about the Instrument rating just yet. Concentrate on one thing at a time.

2. I'd expect a typical trip for me to be me and my wife with some weekend baggage flying 250-400 miles. Mostly to smaller airports, but we do have some friends in the Chicago area too... although if flying into that area is as scary as driving into it maybe we can skip that. I don't have anywhere in mind that would involve flying over mountains or any large bodies of water, at least not yet. I do wonder though if I might want to pick up a couple of friends and go somewhere with 4 of us in the plane. However, I've read that a lot of the common 4-seat airplanes can't really take off with 4 people and cargo due to weight. How does that work out?

Well again first things first. Get the private and then worry about what you will fly later. But to answer your question, yes the number of seats does not govern the number of people that you can carry but rather weight is the determing factor. There are a reasonable enough four seaters that can carry up to about 950 lbs . While full tanks may take up say 288 lbs and thus limit the weight you can carry you can go with less fuel and carry more people weight. Of course it all depends on how much you and your passengers weigh.

3. Speaking of cessna 172s I see our local airport has one for rent. That might be a lot cheaper but how does that typically work? They have the price listed per hour so is that for how many hours I have the plane, or how many hours I'm actually flying it? I ask because Ideally I'd like to head down somewhere for a weekend and fly back. Seems like renting might be cheaper, but again I'm not sure if this is a practical game plan or not.

Most schools rent their aircraft wet ( which means fuel is included) and they are rented by the hour. The hour in most instances starts the moment the propeller turns until the moment it stops so if you fly two hours to the destination and 2 hours and 15 minutes home you would be billed for 4 hours 15 minutes even if you have the plane for 2 days. NOW some places do have a daily minimum of hours you must pay for if you take the plane over night. Some do and some don't.

4. The Cessna 172 seems to be kind of the go-to beginner 4-seater aircraft but what are other choices that someone of my experience level and requirements should look at? I should be able to put 50-60k down on something by spring next year. I wouldn't want to spend any more than about $120k overall... I try to avoid financing things. Can I get something that's safe/sound and not a rattle trap for that kind of money? What about something that will actually carry 4 adults, baggage, and fuel? From the used ads I have been browsing it looks as if time on the airframe & engine and what electronics are installed are what determines the price more than the model year, is that about right?

yes a 172 is a good trainer and starter aircraft. There are also many others including the Piper Cherokees and later Archers. Cessna Cardinals, Beech Sundowners are all good planes to start with and there are others as well. You can get any of those planes for the prices you are budgeting. I would start with lessons first and if you like it then you could look into purchasing a plane. Keep in mind however that the purchase price is only a fraction of the cost of a plane. The cost of keeping and maintaining a plane can be quite substantial especially if something major goes. Lots of things go into what a plane is priced at including avionics, engine time, Airframe time and damage history.

5. Am I crazy? My wife doesn't think so, so I guess that's a good sign right?

Yes your crazy but we are all crazy. If your wife is behind you you have got much of the battle won.

 

[cowman]

You'll get a lot of other responses i'm sure

The 250-400nm flights with your wife will he a fun trip with the rental 172. That type of trip is one GA is well suited for.

You can almost forget four people plus bags in a 172

120k will buy a LOT of plane. You can have a very nice airplane for that $

Well 120 is more like the... if I save up and finance a little I can pull that off price and would only go towards *the* perfect plane. I'd rather spend more like 60 but I can come up with a little more if a cherry aircraft with the right performance/features comes along.

 

[denverpilot]

Answers to your questions...

1. A discovery flight and hunting down an instructor. They'll explain options from there. If you're in good health, an FAA medical exam when the instructor says go. If you have any health issues, discuss early. For a a private pilot certificate you'll need to pass a written exam, an oral exam and a flight exam. (Oral and flight are combined with an examiner.) Written, you can start studying for at any time. Buy a book or two and read up, to see how you like the material as a cheap way to decide if you're truly hooked.

2. Pilots talk in nautical miles. Lesson one. 200-450 Statute miles is doable in most light aircraft. No problem there. Aircraft speeds and load-hauling capability vary depending on engine size. Comfort changes with size also. Many two seat aircraft are just that, two seats and maybe a small bag or two. Four seat trainers are often called 2+2 aircraft because they'll haul 4 adults no bags, or 2 adults and luggage. Larger 4 seaters will haul 4 adults plus bags. ALL aircraft can carry more if you don't fuel all the way up and limit your flight time. My Cessna 182 made the trip to Wisconsin this summer from Colorado in 1.5 hour "hops", loaded to the gills with three non-small guys, all our camping stuff for a week, and enough fuel at each stop to fly for 1.75 hours and land with 2 hours of reserve. We could have pushed that down to 1 hour reserve, but we planned the out trip to match the back trip where we would certainly encounter headwinds westbound. A 172 with two people and bags will do roughly 110 nautical miles per hour after climbing out at a slower speed, and if the air is smooth, descending a little faster. We fueled my airplane with roughly four hours of fuel in the tanks for our hops. It'll hold six hours worth. Fuel is ultimately measured by time aloft. You can trade time aloft for cargo/people. Every airplane is different. There are also loading limitations with balance of the airplane. Too heavy front/rear, won't fly right.

3. Rentals are typically cheaper if you don't fly over 100-150 hours a year, depending on exact numbers. Most folks start out renting. It also lets you fly more types of airplanes to see what you like and what meets your mission. Rent for a while, unless you're so hooked you're going to fly all the time. Remember 100 hours a year is two hours *every* week. Airplanes also really need to be flown regularly or there's maintenance issues that arise. Partnerships and co-ownerships and clubs are a good trade-off unless you're flying 200+ hours a year. Rental rates are by the flight hour (engine running actually, in most aircraft, measured by an hour meter). Downside for taking trips is, most places will charge a minimum number of hours per day if you book the airplane away from home base. Depends on the club or rental place. Each is different.

Tying up an airplane for a busy weekend has to be booked significantly in advance at many places and if you fly a short distance, the minimum hours will get you. Here's how that usually works. The minimum is say, 2 hours a day. You take the airplane on a Friday night and fly 200 miles or so. Two hours. Saturday it sits parked. Sunday you fly back, two hours. The minimum for the three days is 6 hours. You owe them for 2 hours more than you flew.

Change that to a longer flight. You leave Friday night and fly 400 miles. Roughly four hours. Plane sits parked Saturday and you fly home Sunday. Eight hours total. The minimum doesn't apply. You pay for eight.

4. You can buy a LOT of airplanes of varying mission purposes for your budget. I recommend renting for a bit and start thinking about common trips, etc. Posting here the trips you'd likely take and how often, you will get all sorts of ideas for what to buy. I'm partial to the venerable old lovely well-mannered Cessna 182, but there's tons of options in your price range.

5. You are crazy. It is an expensive hobby and weather and other limitations will make you stare at the sky and weather maps and think real hard about the outdoors and what Mother Nature is up to. An Instrument Rating will give you knowledge enough to realize your equipment can't safely carry young and family through everything Nature can dish out. Airplanes marginally capable of significant bad weather are at the top of your proposed budget and it would still entail needing to build a lot of knowledge, skill, and has some built in risks. Flexible schedule is a must when flying light aircraft. In your 400 mile scenario, at least you probably aren't crossing multiple weather systems. Just the one in your way.

 

[cowman]

How do you define "constantly" with respect to your 5-8-12 hour trips? How many of each per year?

I suppose a lot of that is the trips we'd like to make but don't because driving 8 hours after work friday night then spending a saturday that's supposed to be fun being tired all day because of no sleep the night before, then driving back sunday doesn't work too well.

But for what we actually do now, about 5-6 of the 5 hour trips, 2-3 8 hour runs, and one 12+ hour down to KY. We skip a lot of things we'd like to do because of the time to travel. My wife's family is the 12 hour and she is really close to them but only gets to see them once a year now which she hates. 8 hours is where I grew up and where my closest friends are. I don't get to see them much at all anymore and I'd probably be down a lot more if I could be there in 3 hours or less.

It's not all about the traveling, I think it would be fun. But this is sort of the practical end of it I'm using to justify this crazyness

 

[jason]

Answers to your questions...

1. A discovery flight and hunting down an instructor. They'll explain options from there. If you're in good health, an FAA medical exam when the instructor says go. If you have any health issues, discuss early. For a a private pilot certificate you'll need to pass a written exam, an oral exam and a flight exam. (Oral and flight are combined with an examiner.) Written, you can start studying for at any time. Buy a book or two and read up, to see how you like the material as a cheap way to decide if you're truly hooked.

2. Pilots talk in nautical miles. Lesson one. 200-450 Statute miles is doable in most light aircraft. No problem there. Aircraft speeds and load-hauling capability vary depending on engine size. Comfort changes with size also. Many two seat aircraft are just that, two seats and maybe a small bag or two. Four seat trainers are often called 2+2 aircraft because they'll haul 4 adults no bags, or 2 adults and luggage. Larger 4 seaters will haul 4 adults plus bags. ALL aircraft can carry more if you don't fuel all the way up and limit your flight time. My Cessna 182 made the trip to Wisconsin this summer from Colorado in 1.5 hour "hops", loaded to the gills with three non-small guys, all our camping stuff for a week, and enough fuel at each stop to fly for 1.75 hours and land with 2 hours of reserve. We could have pushed that down to 1 hour reserve, but we planned the out trip to match the back trip where we would certainly encounter headwinds westbound. A 172 with two people and bags will do roughly 110 nautical miles per hour after climbing out at a slower speed, and if the air is smooth, descending a little faster. We fueled my airplane with roughly four hours of fuel in the tanks for our hops. It'll hold six hours worth. Fuel is ultimately measured by time aloft. You can trade time aloft for cargo/people. Every airplane is different. There are also loading limitations with balance of the airplane. Too heavy front/rear, won't fly right.

3. Rentals are typically cheaper if you don't fly over 100-150 hours a year, depending on exact numbers. Most folks start out renting. It also lets you fly more types of airplanes to see what you like and what meets your mission. Rent for a while, unless you're so hooked you're going to fly all the time. Remember 100 hours a year is two hours *every* week. Airplanes also really need to be flown regularly or there's maintenance issues that arise. Partnerships and co-ownerships and clubs are a good trade-off unless you're flying 200+ hours a year. Rental rates are by the flight hour (engine running actually, in most aircraft, measured by an hour meter). Downside for taking trips is, most places will charge a minimum number of hours per day if you book the airplane away from home base. Depends on the club or rental place. Each is different.

Tying up an airplane for a busy weekend has to be booked significantly in advance at many places and if you fly a short distance, the minimum hours will get you. Here's how that usually works. The minimum is say, 2 hours a day. You take the airplane on a Friday night and fly 200 miles or so. Two hours. Saturday it sits parked. Sunday you fly back, two hours. The minimum for the three days is 6 hours. You owe them for 2 hours more than you flew.

Change that to a longer flight. You leave Friday night and fly 400 miles. Roughly four hours. Plane sits parked Saturday and you fly home Sunday. Eight hours total. The minimum doesn't apply. You pay for eight.

4. You can buy a LOT of airplanes of varying mission purposes for your budget. I recommend renting for a bit and start thinking about common trips, etc. Posting here the trips you'd likely take and how often, you will get all sorts of ideas for what to buy. I'm partial to the venerable old lovely well-mannered Cessna 182, but there's tons of options in your price range.

5. You are crazy. It is an expensive hobby and weather and other limitations will make you stare at the sky and weather maps and think real hard about the outdoors and what Mother Nature is up to. An Instrument Rating will give you knowledge enough to realize your equipment can't safely carry young and family through everything Nature can dish out. Airplanes marginally capable of significant bad weather are at the top of your proposed budget and it would still entail needing to build a lot of knowledge, skill, and has some built in risks. Flexible schedule is a must when flying light aircraft. In your 400 mile scenario, at least you probably aren't crossing multiple weather systems. Just the one in your way.

I think that this is one of the most important points that has been touched on. Know that when traveling by small airplane, weather impacts a LOT of what you do. You will often need to wait a few hours or even a day for the weather to clear. Or you may have to leave a day earlier than planned because it looks good right now and iffy tomorrow. We do it because we love to fly. It just so happens that we can accept the flaws and we usually end up saving some time here and there.

 

[cowman]

The only part of Chicagoland that I'd expect any problem is the airspace within 5 miles of O'Hare. Even overflying Midway shouldn't be a problem. Well, don't fly low over Da Bears during a game.

As for getting there "fast," it certainly can work that way. I flew a 3.5 hour round trip over the weekend across California to Lake Tahoe, in a Cessna 172. It would have taken 8 hours in good traffic to drive there. Traffic was awful (and I flew over it at 120 MPH -- hehe).

But I think the motivation will need to be elsewhere. It's a lot of work to learn to fly. It's also a lot of fun, but it can get frustrating at times. I learned to fly for the view -- everything looks different from the air, and the view of the city from 2000 feet is quite different from the view even at 4000 feet, let alone the 35000 you get from an airliner. And the night flying is really cool, not at all like an airliner (unless you get to sit in the front seats).

We recently took our first real vacation down to Jamaica, flew down on an airbus a323. I hated the airport experience but I loved the flying part. On the way back I was driving my wife nuts while she was trying to sleep- how can you not look down at city lights at night and not be amazed? Better yet was flying through the storm and watching the rain and the lightning. Although I suppose I probably don't want to fly a little cessna through one of those storms

 

[wabower]

I don't have the answer either, just trying to help you quantify the "likely use" vs the "idealized use" that seems to creep into these conversations. Even though they're in the budget, these trips aren't cheap and some element of "we're spending all this money for a day and a half?" and other financial issues can impact the actual amount of travel, as can weather and other inconveniences.

I suppose a lot of that is the trips we'd like to make but don't because driving 8 hours after work friday night then spending a saturday that's supposed to be fun being tired all day because of no sleep the night before, then driving back sunday doesn't work too well.

But for what we actually do now, about 5-6 of the 5 hour trips, 2-3 8 hour runs, and one 12+ hour down to KY. We skip a lot of things we'd like to do because of the time to travel. My wife's family is the 12 hour and she is really close to them but only gets to see them once a year now which she hates. 8 hours is where I grew up and where my closest friends are. I don't get to see them much at all anymore and I'd probably be down a lot more if I could be there in 3 hours or less.

It's not all about the traveling, I think it would be fun. But this is sort of the practical end of it I'm using to justify this crazyness

 

[cowman]

I think that this is one of the most important points that has been touched on. Know that when traveling by small airplane, weather impacts a LOT of what you do. You will often need to wait a few hours or even a day for the weather to clear. Or you may have to leave a day earlier than planned because it looks good right now and iffy tomorrow. We do it because we love to fly. It just so happens that we can accept the flaws and we usually end up saving some time here and there.

Yeah I told my wife about that... she gets a little anxious when we're running late sometimes. I told her she'd have to realize that I might have to abruptly say "nope, can't go now. got to wait" if we travel by plane and she says she understands that.

I've got no problem with being late to Thanksgiving dinner if the alternative is risking our lives/expensive toy.

Speaking of weather, I'm in WI and it does get pretty cold up here sometimes. -20F for days at a time ins't unheard of. Would I need to have special de-icing equipment to fly in that? Or does it have more to do with humidity/altitude/pressure ?

 

[Henning]

Do you have the budget to do your trips by airline? If not you don't have the budget to do it GA either even in a 172. A 172 is not the most economical plane for these trips due to speed being low. A Mooney will likely be the most economical plane for the range you're talking about.

First thing is go to a flight school with your wife and take an intro flight with her along and see what she thinks about the whole experience. If she is good and you have the budget, then buy the plane that she likes best that meets the mission and start training in it.

 

[cowman]

Do you have the budget to do your trips by airline? If not you don't have the budget to do it GA either even in a 172. A 172 is not the most economical plane for these trips due to speed being low. A Mooney will likely be the most economical plane for the range you're talking about.

First thing is go to a flight school with your wife and take an intro flight with her along and see what she thinks about the whole experience. If she is good and you have the budget, then buy the plane that she likes best that meets the mission and start training in it.

Do we have the budget to go by airline? Yes. But, I'd have a 1.5 hour drive to the closest commercial airport in St Paul... or there is a a service out of our regional airport that flies to chicago. Then I think 1.5 hours flight time to St Louis. Then 2 more hours to get to my final destination by either rental car or someone picking me up. And that doesn't factor in time to park and get through airport security and all that stuff. By the time you figure that all in I might as well drive..... except the 12hr KY run but my wife did fly commercial for that.

I know this will cost more money... a lot more money. But I think it would be fun and I'm only going to be alive once so why not.

 

[jason]

Yeah I told my wife about that... she gets a little anxious when we're running late sometimes. I told her she'd have to realize that I might have to abruptly say "nope, can't go now. got to wait" if we travel by plane and she says she understands that.

I've got no problem with being late to Thanksgiving dinner if the alternative is risking our lives/expensive toy.

Speaking of weather, I'm in WI and it does get pretty cold up here sometimes. -20F for days at a time ins't unheard of. Would I need to have special de-icing equipment to fly in that? Or does it have more to do with humidity/altitude/pressure ?

That's a long, complicated answer. The bottom line is that, even if you're instrument rated, you won't be flying in a lot of clouds in the winter. It's possible (and I've done it a number of times), but you REALLY have to know what you're looking for and have a plan to get out of it. Ice is something that you do NOT want to mess around with. Some planes can be had in your budget that allow you to fly in light icing, but you have to dedicate yourself to learning about the weather and the capabilities of your aircraft...and essentially become VERY adept at this stuff.

That said, if it's clear the temperatures won't be a problem. You might have to preheat the engine, but these planes have heat like a car. Some more effective than others, but, once again, in your budget you should be fine.

 

[BurtM]

Hello there, forum.

I'm not a pilot, nor am I currently doing any training. The only pilot(or rather former pilot) I know is my father. He had a Cessna 180 before I was born and talked about it fondly but of course it was gone before I existed. Also, unfortunately he's older and his memory isn't very good so he can't tell me much about it now.

I've only had the opportunity to fly a handful of times, mostly commercial and once on a corporate turboprop. I've enjoyed it every time(well the part between sitting down in my seat and when it was time to get off the plane anyway). I hate being in the back looking out the little window- I wanna be up front!

Aside from that, I relocated to Eau Claire, WI a few years back and since then my wife and I are constantly making 5,8, and 12 hour drives to see family and friends. The thought in my head keeps getting louder and louder every time I've been sitting in a car seat for an entire day grumbling about the other drivers- If I had a plane I could have slept in today and we'd still be there by now.

Cutting an 8 hour drive down to a 3 hour flight would mean a lot for my wife and I. It would make a lot of things we miss because of time constraints a lot more reasonable... and I think I'd enjoy flying a lot. The local airport has a Cessna 152 and 172 for rent and they offer flight instruction according to their website... I'm VERY tempted. Actually I've been VERY tempted for the past year but haven't taken the first step yet.


Anyway, enough with my life story. Here are my questions.

1. What should my first step be? I think for what I want to do I need a private pilot certificate and I'd probably want to be certified for IFR. You know... besides actually finding someone to take me up once to make sure it's something I really want to do.


2. I'd expect a typical trip for me to be me and my wife with some weekend baggage flying 250-400 miles. Mostly to smaller airports, but we do have some friends in the Chicago area too... although if flying into that area is as scary as driving into it maybe we can skip that. I don't have anywhere in mind that would involve flying over mountains or any large bodies of water, at least not yet. I do wonder though if I might want to pick up a couple of friends and go somewhere with 4 of us in the plane. However, I've read that a lot of the common 4-seat airplanes can't really take off with 4 people and cargo due to weight. How does that work out?

3. Speaking of cessna 172s I see our local airport has one for rent. That might be a lot cheaper but how does that typically work? They have the price listed per hour so is that for how many hours I have the plane, or how many hours I'm actually flying it? I ask because Ideally I'd like to head down somewhere for a weekend and fly back. Seems like renting might be cheaper, but again I'm not sure if this is a practical game plan or not.

4. The Cessna 172 seems to be kind of the go-to beginner 4-seater aircraft but what are other choices that someone of my experience level and requirements should look at? I should be able to put 50-60k down on something by spring next year. I wouldn't want to spend any more than about $120k overall... I try to avoid financing things. Can I get something that's safe/sound and not a rattle trap for that kind of money? What about something that will actually carry 4 adults, baggage, and fuel? From the used ads I have been browsing it looks as if time on the airframe & engine and what electronics are installed are what determines the price more than the model year, is that about right?

5. Am I crazy? My wife doesn't think so, so I guess that's a good sign right?

Go on a discovery flight. Take your spouse with you. There's not a whole lot of use in you buying a plane that your family doesn't want to fly in, is there?

Get your ticket and then worry about whether you should buy, join a club, or something else.

Once you do that, then you can worry about the rest.

 

[BurtM]

The bottom line is that, even if you're instrument rated, you won't be flying in a lot of clouds in the winter. It's possible (and I've done it a number of times), but you REALLY have to know what you're looking for and have a plan to get out of it.

Amen, Brother Jason!

Cessna "Land-O-Matic" gear won't get one out of a bad situation with wet clouds at 0F OAT. Neither will a Cirrus with a Parachute. Both companies have tried to oversell what one can reasonably expect to accomplish over the years.

 

[Henning]

Do we have the budget to go by airline? Yes. But, I'd have a 1.5 hour drive to the closest commercial airport in St Paul... or there is a a service out of our regional airport that flies to chicago. Then I think 1.5 hours flight time to St Louis. Then 2 more hours to get to my final destination by either rental car or someone picking me up. And that doesn't factor in time to park and get through airport security and all that stuff. By the time you figure that all in I might as well drive..... except the 12hr KY run but my wife did fly commercial for that.

I know this will cost more money... a lot more money. But I think it would be fun and I'm only going to be alive once so why not.

Good, I'm not suggesting taking an airline, just getting a question out of the way since you didn't give a financial status. You can pick up a Mooney that'll make it on a good weather day for between $50k & $100k. Unless you go into 2 seat experimentals (you can buy other people's home builds, you don't have to build it yourself) that's going to get you about the most efficient plane. If you have more, you can get a 6 cyl Mooney and go faster (there's a very nice one for sale on this board) and they are available with deicing equipment. I find 3 miles a minute to be a very nice traveling speed, but your trips are short enough 145kts won't cost you an extra overnight.

The question still remains if the wife is onboard with this all.

 

[Jaybird180]

The question still remains if the wife is onboard with this all.

I think this has been answered.

 

[DebbieDriver]

Hi ya, and welcome to flying.

You obviously have "the bug". I, like you, would always sit at the window seat on the commercial flight and stay busy the whole time looking at the world go by. I literally did not want to land. My wife bought me an intro flight and 6 lessons for my 40th birthday. She went up with me on the discovery flight and we were both sold.

Now, 8 years later, I got my PPL, and 2-1/2 years ago we bought our own plane. I'm still VFR, but I live in sunny Orange County California, so I can get by more often than not with just VFR. I will be getting my Instrument rating, hopefully within the next year.

Answers to your questions:
1) Take that discovery flight WITH YOUR WIFE. I'm sure you'll both love it, but it is important to KNOW that you are both on the same page.

2) 250-400 miles is the perfect light plane trip. My most frequent flights are to the San Francisco bay area (wife's family), Las Vegas (my family), and Phoenix (family friend). These trips were 4 to 8 hours driving; now 1.5 to 3 hours flying. My wife HATES to drive these any more and she wants me to get my Instrument rating so we can avoid the "sky bus" for these trips when the weather is less-than-VFR. She is seriously starting to hate flying commercially now that we have our own plane.

3) One club that I rented from had a simple 1 hour per day minimum, the other club had a 2 hour minimum on weekdays and 3 hour minimum on weekends, which will put the kaibosh on many shorter weekend trips. Check the rules for different places, it may make a huge difference.

4) Rent the 172 for a while until you know what you prefer and know what you want to buy. I rented 172s and Warriors (Piper, low wing). My wife and I both preferred the low wing, for various reasons. Glad I didn't jump in and buy a 172 before I realized THAT. Just hanging around the airport, you will meet people with different airplanes, and most of us will happily fly you around the pattern or fly you to lunch at a local airport so that you can see how the plane feels. Just ask. Hell, all I need is an excuse to go flying. Flying a prospective pilot around is a great reason to burn avgas.

5) Crazy. Hell yes!! And like you, my wife is encouraging me to do it. God I love that woman!!

So, don't wait. Jump NOW! Go do it this weekend. You know you want to. Some advice from a wise man: "This ain't no dress rehersal, son, this is IT. What're you waiting for? Go do it."

Good luck, and keep us posted. I wanna hear how the flight went and how anxious you wife will be knowing that those trips will be so much shorter by air.

 

[Ghery]

That's a long, complicated answer. The bottom line is that, even if you're instrument rated, you won't be flying in a lot of clouds in the winter. It's possible (and I've done it a number of times), but you REALLY have to know what you're looking for and have a plan to get out of it. Ice is something that you do NOT want to mess around with. Some planes can be had in your budget that allow you to fly in light icing, but you have to dedicate yourself to learning about the weather and the capabilities of your aircraft...and essentially become VERY adept at this stuff.

Amen. I got my IR a year ago and this past weekend was the first time I flew in actual instrument conditions. Much of the year ice in clouds is a significant concern in this part of the country.

That said, when weather cooperates flying beats driving. It's a 5 1/2 to 6 hour drive across the state for us, one we make a number of times a year. The longest it has taken to fly was on Sunday when the combination of headwinds and a C-172 resulted in 3.1 hours on the Hobbs. I've done it in less with favorable winds and a C-182 or Arrow. But, either way, it's faster than driving. And the view is much better.

Good to hear your wife is behind this idea. Mine was too, and it makes it a whole lot easier.

Have fun and welcome to the addiction.

 

[Jaybird180]

Loved this line:

So, don't wait. Jump NOW! Go do it this weekend. You know you want to. Some advice from a wise man: "This ain't no dress rehersal, son, this is IT. What're you waiting for? Go do it."

 

[rottydaddy]

I think that this is one of the most important points that has been touched on. Know that when traveling by small airplane, weather impacts a LOT of what you do. You will often need to wait a few hours or even a day for the weather to clear. Or you may have to leave a day earlier than planned because it looks good right now and iffy tomorrow. We do it because we love to fly. It just so happens that we can accept the flaws and we usually end up saving some time here and there.

The bottom line is that there is weather that you'd be willing to drive through that it would be crazy to fly through... even with an instrument rating and a good IFR equipped airplane. If saving time on frequent long trips is your main reason to pursue flying... be careful. Get-there-itis is probably the #1 cause of premature death among pilots (and their passengers).

But you seem to actually like flying, so why try to "justify" it with some practical reason? :wink2:

 

[cowman]

My wife tells me the husband of an acquaintance is a pilot and has a couple of planes and would likely be willing to take us up. Dunno whether I should pursue that or just contact the flight school/airport.

Also got to consider that until Dec we don't have a lot of extra money... without getting into details I get big payments twice a year and I put everything extra into paying a big loan off earlier in the year. The upshot is now that I have the loan paid off, I can afford stuff like this(well as soon as Dec comes around).

Another query... how big of a difference is it to learn on a Cessna and then end up getting say a piper? Looks like the only two planes for rent/instruction at the local place are a 152 and a 172.

I've read about getting "checked out" for an aircraft. Is this an FAA requirement or more of a... it's a good idea to fly at least once with someone who knows the aircraft before you fly it on your own kind of thing?

 

[Jaybird180]

If you are rated for category and class you are legal but it may not be smart. Skyhawks and Warriors are in the same category and class.

 

[Clark1961]

My wife tells me the husband of an acquaintance is a pilot and has a couple of planes and would likely be willing to take us up. Dunno whether I should pursue that or just contact the flight school/airport.

Also got to consider that until Dec we don't have a lot of extra money... without getting into details I get big payments twice a year and I put everything extra into paying a big loan off earlier in the year. The upshot is now that I have the loan paid off, I can afford stuff like this(well as soon as Dec comes around).

Another query... how big of a difference is it to learn on a Cessna and then end up getting say a piper? Looks like the only two planes for rent/instruction at the local place are a 152 and a 172.

I've read about getting "checked out" for an aircraft. Is this an FAA requirement or more of a... it's a good idea to fly at least once with someone who knows the aircraft before you fly it on your own kind of thing?

It's probably okay to fly with a friend but probably better to take a discovery flight with an instructor. The friend may or may not be oriented to helping you learn about flying, the instructor should be dedicated to helping you learn about flying.

No problems at all learning in a Cessna then flying a Piper when considering SEL (single engine land aircraft). Pipers are much better of course and the only aircraft which should be flown but we are stuck with the infestation of Cessnas... (the last part was a joke).

Check-outs in SEL are more an insurance requirement than an FAA requirement. That said, they are a good idea unless your name is Jesse Angel and acknowledged as one of the worlds greatest pilots. The last part is another joke, Jesse just acquired a Fly Baby which is a single seat aircraft so the check-out was totally solo (but he wears a parachute).

 

[John221us]

Another query... how big of a difference is it to learn on a Cessna and then end up getting say a piper? Looks like the only two planes for rent/instruction at the local place are a 152 and a 172.

I've read about getting "checked out" for an aircraft. Is this an FAA requirement or more of a... it's a good idea to fly at least once with someone who knows the aircraft before you fly it on your own kind of thing?

The transition is easy, but of course, once you fly a Piper, you won't want to go back to one of those 'high wing' planes

I bought a Cherokee about ten hours into my training, which started on rented 172's.

 

[jason]

My wife tells me the husband of an acquaintance is a pilot and has a couple of planes and would likely be willing to take us up. Dunno whether I should pursue that or just contact the flight school/airport.

Also got to consider that until Dec we don't have a lot of extra money... without getting into details I get big payments twice a year and I put everything extra into paying a big loan off earlier in the year. The upshot is now that I have the loan paid off, I can afford stuff like this(well as soon as Dec comes around).

Another query... how big of a difference is it to learn on a Cessna and then end up getting say a piper? Looks like the only two planes for rent/instruction at the local place are a 152 and a 172.

I've read about getting "checked out" for an aircraft. Is this an FAA requirement or more of a... it's a good idea to fly at least once with someone who knows the aircraft before you fly it on your own kind of thing?

As has been said, flying with your friend is fine. But you'd be way better off with an instructor. Instructors will let you fly. I know some instructors around here that start the flight by letting you take off the very first time and fly until you're about to land.

Learn in whatever you want to learn in. Switching planes is a non-event.

 

[rottydaddy]

It's probably okay to fly with a friend but probably better to take a discovery flight with an instructor. The friend may or may not be oriented to helping you learn about flying, the instructor should be dedicated to helping you learn about flying.

No problems at all learning in a Cessna then flying a Piper when considering SEL (single engine land aircraft). Pipers are much better of course and the only aircraft which should be flown but we are stuck with the infestation of Cessnas... (the last part was a joke).

Check-outs in SEL are more an insurance requirement than an FAA requirement. That said, they are a good idea unless your name is Jesse Angel and acknowledged as one of the worlds greatest pilots. The last part is another joke, Jesse just acquired a Fly Baby which is a single seat aircraft so the check-out was totally solo (but he wears a parachute).

Jesse probably used much of his prowess as one of the world's greatest pilots to quickly master that Fly Baby, but as far as the FAA is concerned, because he holds a certificate which allows him to fly a single-engine airplane with wheels on it instead of skis or floats, he was good to go. The FAA knows that only a complete idiot would get into a single-seat aircraft without at least learning a little about it first, so they allow this. The alternative would be to ban single-seat aircraft, which, thankfully, they haven't considered.

Another more subtle example of how the FAA regs apply to jumping into something new:
I started flying gliders with over 200 hours as a private pilot rated for single-engine land-based airplanes with fixed landing gear, fixed-pitch props, and less than 200 horsepower (your basic PPASEL, with no seaplane, complex, or high-performance endorsement). Before I could solo a glider, the FAA required me to get instruction in a trainer with a glider instructor, and get his sign-off. I could not carry passengers yet, but I could solo it. The club has a single-seat glider, which obviously you can't take dual in. Legally, I could have climbed into that glider and flown it immediately after my first solo in the trainer (unless my instructor said "no", which he didn't). I waited until I did my check ride and got Private Pilot- Glider privileges added to my certificate, but I didn't have to. It was a thrill flying something with only one seat, and I'm still getting a feel for that particular glider, but with a little briefing with those who know it, and my basic glider skillset, it was not a huge transition.

Most of my logged airplane time is in Cessna 172s, but aside from the gliders, I have done my tailwheel endorsement in a Champ and applied that to time in Cubs, Champs, and Cessna 140s. I've taken aerobatics instruction in a Zlin 242, and flown a bunch of other types... high wing, low wing, tailwheel, nosewheel, skis, biplanes, etc. Didn't land all of them, but I got to play with them a bit.
I have very little time in many of them, and have soloed only a few makes and models, but I learned by trying all these different planes that just getting the feel of some aircraft new to you is not as big a deal as learning to fly in the first place.
It's like the difference between going from that beat-up Huffy you had for years as a little kid to your first 10-speed road bike. It will take practice to learn to ride the new bike with finesse, but staying upright and just riding it will not be a problem, because you already went through the difficult process of learning to just stay on a bike and make it go where you want it to go.

 

[rottydaddy]

The transition is easy, but of course, once you fly a Piper, you won't want to go back to one of those 'high wing' planes

Until that day you need to get yourself and all your stuff out of the plane in the pouring rain... and try getting some shade under a Cherokee wing sometime... :wink2:

 

[PPC1052]

Whether you will really save time depends on the length of your trip, and how close the airports are to you departure and arrival destinations.

For example, I am about 20 to 30 minutes from my home airport. Tack on another 15 to pre-flight. So, its about 45 minutes before I am off the ground. For a three to four hour drive to Chicago, I save a very small amount of time (25 minute drive, 15 minute pre-flight, 1 hour 15 minute flight, 15 minute park tie down, assume a 20-30 minute ride to final destination = roughtly 2 hours 45 minutes). But I will say that after doing a few day trips both by car and by plane, I am much less exhausted if I fly up and back in one day, rather than drive it.

Expect to not be competent to fly you and your wife on the kind of trips you want to fly for a minumum of two to three years from when you start. You could get to that level sooner, but you may not. Expect to pay $7,500 getting your private license, and more still for your instrument rating Could be more, could be less. With fuel going up the way it is, I would guess it will cost even more.

 

[somorris]

Some advice from a wise man: "This ain't no dress rehersal, son, this is IT. What're you waiting for? Go do it."

I like this advice too. One thing I would add (if it isn't already here somewhere) is to only do this if you really enjoy it. The way life works out, all the anticipated trips when you are looking for an airplane wind up being a lot less after the new wears off. There are a lot of airplanes at my airport, some very capable, that rarely fly. Cost is probably a big factor, but so is time. Life sometimes gets in the way. That being said, there are also those that do a lot of recreational travel flying, and maybe you will wind up being in that group .

 

[AuntPeggy]

Just do it. You and your wife can do it together. While transportation is a reason at the beginning, you will learn the absolute joy of flight. Do it together.

 

[cowman]

Well, barring any unforeseen problems I should be airborne tomorrow evening in a 172.

Can't lie, I'm a bit nervous about it but like a lot of other things in life once I'm there and I'm doing it I'll probably get over that pretty quick.

 

[bbchien]

As an added incentive, cowman...flying from Eau Claire to suburban Chicago in more like 4:1 than 3:1 for time saved vs. automobile.

 

[cowman]

I'm making that exact drive Fri after work too

 

[Tom-D]

The first thing you need to read and understand.


http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aviation/media/faa-h-8083-19A.pdf