STAR Clarification

kjwalker01

kjwalker01

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Nov 27, 2013
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114
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Denver, CO
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Display name:
Keith
I got an IR last year, but only recently started doing actual trips, rather than quick sightseeing or $100 hamburger trips (BS, by the way, more like $300 hamburgers these days). Lately, I've made it a habit of always filing IFR, which has been a lot of fun. But there is something that keeps hanging me up. I think I'm doing this correctly, but would like to get some input...

When being assigned an Arrival Procedure, such as the DFW KNEAD7 or YEAGR2, the text description of the transition end with "Thence....." and at the bottom a final heading when reaching that waypoint. For example, "Thence.... from over YEAGR, depart heading 315 or as assigned by ATC. Expect RADAR vectors to final."

The last two times I've come back into DFW, I've made the turn to that heading, which I believe is what I'm expected to do, but I've always called approach to confirm, as they had not given me a different heading to fly. In actuality, they didn't give me anything once I was handed off to them, other than "Radar Contact".

So.... without being radar vectored before that point, is there any need to tell them that I've turned? I got a little nervous with it yesterday, as that final STAR heading was putting me right into the Bravo.
 
A SID or STAR is a published set of an ATC clearance/instructions.*

If you were flying the same route without a STAR and received the instruction over the the radio, "Upon reaching YEAGR, fly heading 315. Expect vector to final" what would you do?

You do exactly the same thing here.

STAR heading was putting me right into the Bravo.
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So what? you are on an IFR clearance.

[*I seem to be saying that in ever SID/STAR post. Maybe it belongs in my signature block?]
 
You're radar contact and under ATC control. Who cares about going into bravo airspace. If the STAR tells you to do something and you were cleared the STAR, do it. Flying that heading they are trying to sequence you into the airport or set you up for the approach.
 
kjwalker01 said:
The last two times I've come back into DFW, I've made the turn to that heading, which I believe is what I'm expected to do, but I've always called approach to confirm, as they had not given me a different heading to fly. In actuality, they didn't give me anything once I was handed off to them, other than "Radar Contact".
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You were in radar contact then, right?
So.... without being radar vectored before that point, is there any need to tell them that I've turned? I got a little nervous with it yesterday, as that final STAR heading was putting me right into the Bravo.
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Since you were in radar contact, I wouldn't expect any need to tell them you had turned, as they would have already known that. (Unless, of course, you had been instructed to do so.)

If you ARE expected to report the new heading, it's something I wasn't taught and would certainly like to know about!

As for heading into the Bravo, you were on an IFR clearance, right? An IFR clearance is a clearance. You were cleared. If they didn't want you in the Bravo they would have vectored you around it. (That is one nice thing about flying IFR, you don't need an explicit clearance into the Bravo, since you are operating under a clearance already.)
 
IR student here so putting this in phraseology that helps me; you put the STAR on your flight plan, and at some point you are cleared to fly that portion of your flight plan so you are clear to fly the published STAR. If you are heading 315 and it seems your needed radar vector is not forthcoming, then I guess you would nudge Approach.
 
alfadog said:
IR student here so putting this in phraseology that helps me; you put the STAR on your flight plan, and at some point you are cleared to fly that portion of your flight plan so you are clear to fly the published STAR. If you are heading 315 and it seems your needed radar vector is not forthcoming, then I guess you would nudge Approach.
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Let's change that a little and see if this phrasing of the scenario helps:

Forget the flight plan. You are on an IFR clearance and instructed to fly the STAR. Part of the STAR is to fly heading 315 upon reaching a certain point unless ATC gives a different instruction, and expect to start receiving vectors once on the 315 heading.

What you do, if ATC has not given a different instruction, is turn 315 upon reaching that point and wait for the vectors.

Will you nudge ATC at some point? Sure. But that point would usually be when you think things are all wrong and that ATC has forgotten all about you. YEAGR is 41 NM from KDFW. If the airport was familiar, I would know about when vectors ordinarily strted; if not I still wouldn't be worried about not hearing vectors until much, much closer than that.
 
All good, and I appreciate the confirmation that I'm doing this correctly.
 
midlifeflyer said:
A SID or STAR is a published set of an ATC clearance/instructions.*

[*I seem to be saying that in ever SID/STAR post. Maybe it belongs in my signature block?]
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That's a really good way to put it. The usual way to describe it is that they were designed to reduce verbiage, but your description hits it right on the bullseye.
 
luvflyin said:
That's a really good way to put it. The usual way to describe it is that they were designed to reduce verbiage, but your description hits it right on the bullseye.
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Published set of instructions but not clearances. They're not a clearance until someone in ATC clears you to fly those instructions. If it were a published set of clearances, you could fly them without an additional ATC clearance while on an IFR flight plan that did not otherwise include the STAR.
 
Great question and great answers.
As a newly minted "cloud-buster" pilot (I still have only the paper cert, still waiting on updated plastic), this helps me reaffirm my knowledge of the rules.

Keith, I might be in Flower Mound this spring, I can stop by for a chat.
And btw, "th- th- th- that's m- m- m- my stapler".
 
I'm missing all the Office Space references. I had to look up the one with the flair.
 
alfadog said:
Published set of instructions but not clearances. They're not a clearance until someone in ATC clears you to fly those instructions. If it were a published set of clearances, you could fly them without an additional ATC clearance while on an IFR flight plan that did not otherwise include the STAR.
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If you want to be that technical, they are not "instructions" either until ATC give you an instruction to fly the STAR.
 
midlifeflyer said:
If you want to be that technical, they are not "instructions" either until ATC give you an instruction to fly the STAR.
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Yes, I know I'm picking nits but I think clearly delineating what is and is not a clearance is an important nit to pick.
 
luvflyin said:
That's a really good way to put it. The usual way to describe it is that they were designed to reduce verbiage, but your description hits it right on the bullseye.
Click to expand...
That's also correct. I guess a more complete statement would be:

A SID or STAR is a published set of clearances/instructions designed to reduce verbiage when issued by ATC.
 
Here's a slightly different scenario. The text reads, "thence from over LVZ VOR, etc., expect radar vectors." But I have gotten pretty much to, or over, STW without them assigning any vectors. That's the time to quiz them since there is no heading or other instruction after STW.

http://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/1601/00890wilkes-barre.pdf
 
BigBadLou said:
Great question and great answers.
As a newly minted "cloud-buster" pilot (I still have only the paper cert, still waiting on updated plastic), this helps me reaffirm my knowledge of the rules.

Keith, I might be in Flower Mound this spring, I can stop by for a chat.
And btw, "th- th- th- that's m- m- m- my stapler".
Click to expand...


Great, definitely let me know when you'll be in town.
 
midlifeflyer said:
If you want to be that technical, they are not "instructions" either until ATC give you an instruction to fly the STAR.
Click to expand...

I think we probably (or should) all agree that a SID or STAR is a non-regulatory chart that conveys what could be issued by ATC. If/when they issue it to a pilot it then becomes a clearance which may, or may not, include instructions.

Sometimes, what constitutes a clearance and what constitutes an instruction lacks clarity. :eek:
 
aterpster said:
I think we probably (or should) all agree that a SID or STAR is a non-regulatory chart that conveys what could be issued by ATC. If/when they issue it to a pilot it then becomes a clearance which may, or may not, include instructions.
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I think we do :)
 
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