Standard left traffic

Dave S. said:
it must be....because you simply say so. Why is it ALWAYS. The point of the original question is to find out why pilots believe it is so. What is the justification for their belief. I’m not saying whether it’s right or wrong. But why do we do what we do? Is it because our instructor told us so? Or another pilot in a forum?

is 91.129f the rule that defines it or not?

Tex
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Because on charts it is only specified if it is right traffic, this if not marked R14, it’s going to be left traffic 14.
 
I truly thought some of the skill required for a pilot is good judgement. Not sure how to neatly put that into some fancy CFR 14 yada yada yada, but like my signature used to say... “good judgement rules the day”.

I can’t believe some of the posts. Truly making something out of nothing.
 
Lindberg said:
Paul, It isn't semantics. No clearance is required to go anywhere or do anything in Class D airspace other than land or takeoff. And the only requirement for communication is that the controller say your callsign. It may or may not include those other things.
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EdFred said:
So if the controller says "N12345 remain clear of the Class Delta," you can still barge in because that's "two way communication" ?

And before it's said that "never happens at Class D," come do Operation Good Cheer sometime at PTK - not this year though, cancelled.
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I've been told a couple times at a delta to remain clear and call back in 5 or the old no response to my call.

I fly into and leave a pretty busy delta generally at least one time for each flight I do. Every time I need to ask permission to take off and to land. I am instructed when to take off, and usually my direction of flight is approved, sometimes not. Sometimes I'll be required to fly straight for a while before turning, or I'll be given a right downwind departure instead of the left downwind departure I was expecting.

For landing I'll get an instruction depending on the direction from which I approach. If I'm coming from the south to rwy 11, I'll expect a right downwind or base entry. If the controller forgets to give me instructions it would be ludicrous to overfly the airport into left traffic, which would most certainly get a reaction from the tower and most likely cause a dangerous conflict with another aircraft.

I suppose technically Lindberg, you are correct, once you are in communication with the tower you can enter the Delta and do what you want absent instruction from tower. I've never seen that happen in my experience, the tower is always very interested in what you want to do and where you want to go while in their delta.

I think this is important to say because there may be new pilots, students or perspective pilots reading this who may get the wrong idea about flying in a delta and get themselves into trouble.
 
PaulS said:
I've been told a couple times at a delta to remain clear and call back in 5 or the old no response to my call.

I fly into and leave a pretty busy delta generally at least one time for each flight I do. Every time I need to ask permission to take off and to land. I am instructed when to take off, and usually my direction of flight is approved, sometimes not. Sometimes I'll be required to fly straight for a while before turning, or I'll be given a right downwind departure instead of the left downwind departure I was expecting.

For landing I'll get an instruction depending on the direction from which I approach. If I'm coming from the south to rwy 11, I'll expect a right downwind or base entry. If the controller forgets to give me instructions it would be ludicrous to overfly the airport into left traffic, which would most certainly get a reaction from the tower and most likely cause a dangerous conflict with another aircraft.

I suppose technically Lindberg, you are correct, once you are in communication with the tower you can enter the Delta and do what you want absent instruction from tower. I've never seen that happen in my experience, the tower is always very interested in what you want to do and where you want to go while in their delta.

I think this is important to say because there may be new pilots, students or perspective pilots reading this who may get the wrong idea about flying in a delta and get themselves into trouble.
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Of course there's also the having to obey ATC instructions so you can't just be like "hey Delta controller, **** you, you only control the runway watch me fly 360s at 500' off the departure end whooooooooooooooo!!!!!" Let's see how the FAA enforcement action goes with that. "But this dude on PoA said I could do whatever the hell I want in Class D airspace."
 
PaulS said:
I've never seen that happen in my experience, the tower is always very interested in what you want to do and where you want to go while in their delta.
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About twenty years ago I was flying westbound into Kansas City (KMCI) in a DC9 at around 3:00AM. It was a very cold winter night with unlimited visibility and very strong westerly headwinds. With strong headwinds our top-of-descent point is delayed so were relatively close to MCI when we started our descent and already had the city, and airport beacon, in sight.

KC Center transferred us to KC Approach while we were descending through the mid, to upper, FL200s. The frequency Center gave us was actually KC Tower's frequency so a single controller was working all of the positions combined. My radio call was something like this;

ME: "International Tower, [callsign], FL250 descending XX Thousand, Information XX, Airport in sight."

MCI Tower: "[Callsign], International Tower, Cleared visual approach and cleared to land runway 19R."

What could I say in my reply but, "Cleared visual, cleared to land 19R, [callsign]. What? No taxi clearance?"

He then gave us our taxi clearance, too. LOL
 
Edit: Deleted me being a numbnuts and mixing up two different threads. Carry on!
 
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denverpilot said:
Specific phraseology is required of the controller, well beyond “cleared to land” for LAHSO ops.
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How did we get to LAHSO ops? And where did I say anything about phraseology? You're trying really hard to make this complicated.
 
Make no mistake about it.

you operate within a Class D or C only at the pleasure of the controller.

he has the authority to require Or allow The pilot to remain clear of, enter into, fly through, the Class D or C that HE controls. And that begins with the requirement to establish communications With ATC. That Class D or C belongs to him and is under his control.
Tex
 
Dave S. said:
you operate within a Class D or C only at the pleasure of the controller.
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Since someone is sure to ask, ...

91.123 Compliance with ATC clearances and instructions.
(b) Except in an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to an ATC instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised.​
 
Yeah, well, there may be some who seem to think that establishing communications is the golden ticket and the only other authority the controller has is to issue clearances to use the runway.

tex
 
Lindberg said:
How did we get to LAHSO ops? And where did I say anything about phraseology? You're trying really hard to make this complicated.
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Lol. Sorry. Mixed up two different threads. Ugh.

Edit: Going to go delete that silliness. Haha. Good lord. Sorry.
 
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