Stalls!!!

Ron Levy said:
If you read those regs carefully, you'll see that you do not have to be in training for that particular certificate/rating, just doing a maneuver which is required for a certificate/rating. This was asked and answered by the Chief Counsel some years back. So, you can do spins even with a Student Pilot without chutes. Further, the spins need not be done in an aerobatic trainer, just an aircraft approved for intentional spins, which includes Cessna 150/152's (mind the AD on that) and Cherokee 140's (but not Warriors). Of course, you may learn a lot more about spins in planes which do not require such strong pro-spin controls for entry and which do require positive anti-spin controls for recovery, but that's another story.
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TIL and stand corrected with apologies to the board. Further, here is the url of the chief counsel's letter about spins/chutes proving me incorrect:

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...gin-den-air - (2012) legal interpretation.pdf
 
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gismo said:
That may (or may not) be true in the typical trainer but I've flown a few airplanes that will depart into a spin with the controls held in the center. One is an AT-6 and another is the StardusterToo.
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How exactly did you set that up? You're talking about a steady power-off, neutral control spin? And you're sure it was actually a spin and not a spiral? ...As in pushing the stick forward does not slow the rotation?
 
VanDy said:
I have nothing constructive to add other than....

How is he supposed to land with a passenger???
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I hit the deck without flaring and catch the first trap. :)
 
VanDy said:
I have nothing constructive to add other than....

How is he supposed to land with a passenger???
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You don't have to stall it in. You need to touch down main wheels first, which requires slower than normal flight. It's easier to do it consistently with the stall horn, but first timers may be a bit less freaked out with a gentle partial power approach, soft field landing, and NO stall warning.
 
MAKG1 said:
You don't have to stall it in. You need to touch down main wheels first, which requires slower than normal flight. It's easier to do it consistently with the stall horn, but first timers may be a bit less freaked out with a gentle partial power approach, soft field landing, and NO stall warning.
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so the airplane is not 'stalled' when its parked and tied down?

my comment was completely in jest, i realize there are different ways to reach the ground safely.
 
MAKG1 said:
You don't have to stall it in. You need to touch down main wheels first, which requires slower than normal flight. It's easier to do it consistently with the stall horn, but first timers may be a bit less freaked out with a gentle partial power approach, soft field landing, and NO stall warning.
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Also, I don't think I've landed in a true stall in my life. Stall horn, sure. Stall? That would be about 40kts and a very very high pitch, especially in ground effect.
 
VanDy said:
so the airplane is not 'stalled' when its parked and tied down?

my comment was completely in jest, i realize there are different ways to reach the ground safely.
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It may not be flying, but it's not stalled.

Stalling is caused by flow separation related to angle of attack, not speed. It's a good bet AoA is close to zero with all three wheels on the ground in a tricycle.
 
VanDy said:
so the airplane is not 'stalled' when its parked and tied down?

my comment was completely in jest, i realize there are different ways to reach the ground safely.
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No, an aircraft in a hangar is, in fact, stalled. Just like horses in the barn.
 
Ron Levy said:
Lots of things can cause an aircraft to yaw at the stall besides aileron or rudder inputs, and in the right plane, those can definitely result in a spin even with ailerons and rudder neutral. True, in the average light single trainer, the airplane will not spin without positive pro-spin controls. But if you teach it like that in that average light single trainer, you establish a pattern which can be negatively transferred to more aerodynamically sophisticated aircraft.
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I went through this evolution: started flying like Roscoe described, passed my checkride, then flew like that for a while and later obtained a tailwheel endorsement. In my case the negative transfer wasn't a big deal and in fact I think the proper rudder discipline is just too hard to learn in a Cherokee. Or you can say I was unable to learn it until I flew those more aerodynamically sophisticated airplanes.

Throughout that time I read all the talk on the Internet about the need to use the rudder properly, but I just could not do it. In particular I was unable to lift a wing on a 172 or GX to look under it. Slips were a torture, too. Then it all disappered in some 10 hours in Interstate S1. So much for pattern negatively transferred.

If Roscoe has no access to aerodynamically sophisticated plane, I say let him fly with ailerons. It may be not perfectly fine but he won't kill himself and his passengers.
 
zaitcev said:
If Roscoe has no access to aerodynamically sophisticated plane, I say let him fly with ailerons. It may be not perfectly fine but he won't kill himself and his passengers.
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LOL. You totally missed or misunderstand the points I was making. I learned to fly in a J-3 and have flown almost nothing but tailwheel airplanes since. I know how to use the rudder. So what are all these aerodynamically "sophisticated" airplanes you've flown that will spin power off with all controls neutral? Do you actually have any significant spin experience?
 
RoscoeT said:
LOL. You totally missed or misunderstand the points I was making. I learned to fly in a J-3 and have flown almost nothing but tailwheel airplanes since. I know how to use the rudder. So what are all these aerodynamically "sophisticated" airplanes you've flown that will spin power off with all controls neutral? Do you actually have any significant spin experience?
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I would point out that the discussion started with power-on stalls, and I'm sure you realize that in that situation, even in a 172, absent appropriate anti-yaw rudder deflection, the torque/P-factor/spiraling slipstream effects can create the yaw necessary to spin you. But even power-off, any misrigging, or a mis-set trim tab, or just the deformations which can happen to old, well-abused planes can result in a yaw if the rudder is left to its own devices.
 
Ron Levy said:
I would point out that the discussion started with power-on stalls, and I'm sure you realize that in that situation, even in a 172, absent appropriate anti-yaw rudder deflection, the torque/P-factor/spiraling slipstream effects can create the yaw necessary to spin you. But even power-off, any misrigging, or a mis-set trim tab, or just the deformations which can happen to old, well-abused planes can result in a yaw if the rudder is left to its own devices.
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Yes, that is correct. No disagreement with anything you state, although it would take one helluva mis-rigged airplane to display spin-producing yaw tendencies that would otherwise not be present with proper rigging. Nobody would want to fly that airplane until fixed.

However, the slightly off-topic tangent I started had to do with preventing spins from power-on stalls by pulling power off at the stall, not leaving it in. In airplanes with safe spin characteristics, it is still my belief (based on my experience), that it will be the very rare airplane that will develop a spin if you pull power off at the stall and hold all controls neutral. Again, not saying that is the way to handle power-on or off stalls. Far from it. But what I describe is standard stuff in the world of aerobatic upsets from pretty much any type of spin departure you can imagine.
 
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OK, I get it about the pax. You can find any number of videos of pilots with daring pax. May I submit that this is not about the pax, this is about you. Until you are confident of your skills doing a particular maneuver, until your skills with that maneuver are up to Commercial Pilot standards, you should not do them with pax and you should restrict yourself to practicing them solo and/or with your CFI. Go up with the CFI periodically and get updated on your progress. Ask him how your skills compare to commercial standards.

ps, by maneuvers, I mean stalls, steep turns, anything beyond a very tame envelope that you should, IMO, be using with pax.
 
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