Stalls at Night

Lance F said:
It would be and many should. However...although it would be nice if inexperienced CFIs realized that their certificates are just another license to learn (and that they may have a lot to learn), I am guessing that many do not take such an attitude.
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Too many people think that because they have those three letters behind their certificate number, they know it all. :mad:
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Too many people think that because they have those three letters behind their certificate number, they know it all. :mad:
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This would be why I regularly ride with another instructor in the back seat. Additionally, there is no charge for instructors providing instruction down the line to fellow instructors. The owner established this rule so experienced instructors would assist others without concern of costs. In addition, aircraft are at a reduced rate for in-house instructor's training and currency requirements.
 
I try to do a stall every time I fly at night. It usually happens just as the tires kiss the pavement...

Seriously though, there are no instruments in your airplane that can be used to recover from a spin. So don't spin it if you can't see outside well enough to tell which direction you're spinning. Just remember, the nose always goes toward too much rudder.
 
KennyFlys said:
This would be why I regularly ride with another instructor in the back seat. Additionally, there is no charge for instructors providing instruction down the line to fellow instructors. The owner established this rule so experienced instructors would assist others without concern of costs. In addition, aircraft are at a reduced rate for in-house instructor's training and currency requirements.
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Very commendable. I wonder how many training operations have such policies? Not many I would wager. OTOH, what are your company's rules about training in IMC, flying when crosswinds are significant, landing on grass, and other real world experiences?
 
Lance F said:
Very commendable. I wonder how many training operations have such policies? Not many I would wager. OTOH, what are your company's rules about training in IMC, flying when crosswinds are significant, landing on grass, and other real world experiences?
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Nope, in most I've seen it's full boat on the plane and instructor.

Instrument training in IMC is encouraged. Today, our senior instructor told one student to plan on it this week.

Crosswinds up to whatever the instructor is capable of. My strongest has been right around 15 with gusts to 25 at Conroe. Gusts aren't as bad here as they were back at Conroe. That place did wonders for my crosswind landings, as mysteriously as my side loads went away.

I don't know the published answer on grass landings. But, given what I know about the owner he'd be all for it with competent instructors. I'm not sure what the insurance carrier would say.

But, I think he'd go for it. On my checkout flight with him, I wasn't quite looking at the AI but I think we were still under a 60 degree bank. This was on a short final to lose a thousand feet in well under a mile. He used to teach Air Force jet jocks in Talons and a couple other birds. He has some skill I hope to latch on to.
 
smigaldi said:
Aren't stall taught while basically looking at the instruments anyway, even for primary students? Are they not taught to keep and eye on the ball to keep it centered and then for stall recovery to look at the instrumetns to see when they get a reversal
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Nope. If I find a student or pilot staring at those instruments, they will get covered.

That said, there is a difference between using the instruments as the primary method of aircraft control and using them to confirm what you see using that great attitude indicator outside the airplane, and more use of the instrument for confirmation at night would be in order - I think that's part of the idea.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Too many people think that because they have those three letters behind their certificate number, they know it all. :mad:
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Actually, I find too many people think that because the other guy has those three letters behind their certificate number, he knows it all.

Most CFIs I've run into are well-aware of their limitations.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Actually, I find too many people think that because the other guy has those three letters behind their certificate number, he knows it all.

Most CFIs I've run into are well-aware of their limitations.
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Good point. However if even one CFI has the "know it all" attitude, it is too many.:yes: :)
 
midlifeflyer said:
Nope. If I find a student or pilot staring at those instruments, they will get covered.
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I am only talking about in stalls. My CFI kept a very watchful eye on the ball and told me to do the same.

On recovery after pitching down (visually) he also told to watch for a reversal on the instruments.
 
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smigaldi said:
Well you have a different teaching technique than any instructor I flew with if you do not allow cross checking of instruments during the stall and recovery
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I've had the panel covered up numerous times during primary training, and once during stall practice. Dropped a wing or two and learned to feel coordination, and not only rely on the ball.

I haven't done covered-up panel stalls with my students yet, though.
 
dmccormack said:
I've had the panel covered up numerous times during primary training, and once during stall practice. Dropped a wing or two and learned to feel coordination, and not only rely on the ball.

I haven't done covered-up panel stalls with my students yet, though.
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I was looking up in various books to see how it should be taught and I am seeing discussion on both sides. From my experience I was taught to use the ball to stay coordinated in the stall and then to use the other instruments to verify recovery. Mark uses a different teaching technique. I am not passing judgment, I was just offering what my perspective is and wanted to understand his.

In instrument training I seem to recall partial panel stalls. The idea being there that since you already have lost several instruments you are more likely to loose control of the airplane. So you better know how to recognize and recover without the AI in on scenario and iced up pitot/static in another.
 
smigaldi said:
I was looking up in various books to see how it should be taught and I am seeing discussion on both sides. From my experience I was taught to use the ball to stay coordinated in the stall and then to use the other instruments to verify recovery. Mark uses a different teaching technique. I am not passing judgment, I was just offering what my perspective is and wanted to understand his.

In instrument training I seem to recall partial panel stalls. The idea being there that since you already have lost several instruments you are more likely to loose control of the airplane. So you better know how to recognize and recover without the AI in on scenario and iced up pitot/static in another.
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A perfectly centered Ball at high Angle of Attack, High Power attitude is not necessarily indicative of coordination. If the a/c is slightly out of rig, the ball may be offset.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
How do you define "Qualified"?
How do you determine "Qualified"?
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For qualified, the CFI is a good enough place to start, assuming the CFI or any other kind of teaching pilot, has done everything possible to insure the safety of the particular type of flight in question. IIRC, the FARs require this of all pilots at all times.

That obviously includes extra training if the flight activity demands it, which really brings the whole scenario around to the integrity of the teaching PIC doesn't it? Even with sound integrity and vast experience, there is little protection against the occasional bad day, or bad moment.
 
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smigaldi said:
I was looking up in various books to see how it should be taught and I am seeing discussion on both sides. From my experience I was taught to use the ball to stay coordinated in the stall and then to use the other instruments to verify recovery. Mark uses a different teaching technique. I am not passing judgment, I was just offering what my perspective is and wanted to understand his.
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My CFI taught panel only for stall recovery. I took that advice, well, I used his method then I called BS and he took offense. He took greater offense when I released him. :D My next CFI agreed to instruct both out of cockpit and panel and both. For the life of me (anyone), I can't see not understanding and practicing both.

Same with nights.

Not claiming this to be the case for anyone posting here, but I get awfully annoyed when my CFIs use terms such as "minimum requirements to PPL" as if this excuses teaching limitations. I got my PPL in 40 and still fly with CFIs now approaching 100 hours. Understood that many cannot afford or have time to take this continued education route but if you or your CFI chooses the fast track to license mentality, remember whose life your playing with. :frown3:
 
thepetrostate said:
My CFI taught panel only for stall recovery. I took that advice, well, I used his method then I called BS and he took offense. He took greater offense when I released him. :D My next CFI agreed to instruct both out of cockpit and panel and both. For the life of me (anyone), I can't see not understanding and practicing both.

Same with nights.

Not claiming this to be the case for anyone posting here, but I get awfully annoyed when my CFIs use terms such as "minimum requirements to PPL" as if this excuses teaching limitations. I got my PPL in 40 and still fly with CFIs now approaching 100 hours. Understood that many cannot afford or have time to take this continued education route but if you or your CFI chooses the fast track to license mentality, remember whose life your playing with. :frown3:
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This assumes you're only learning when you have a CFI on board.

That certainly should not be the case.
 
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