Stall Warning Horn on Base And Final

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I've been flying with another pilot who insists it is acceptable for the stall warning horn to be blaring completely through base and final. This is my first flight with said pilot and I had to fight the urge to push the controls forward as we were flying a 45 kt approach in a C-152.

I don't know how to tell the guy I feel like we are too close too stall speed and I don't feel comfortable flying like that ever.
 
Man up and tell him to straighten up, or just don't fly with him again.

There are people I will never fly with and they know I won't fly with them.
 
Unregistered said:
I've been flying with another pilot who insists it is acceptable for the stall warning horn to be blaring completely through base and final. This is my first flight with said pilot and I had to fight the urge to push the controls forward as we were flying a 45 kt approach in a C-152.

I don't know how to tell the guy I feel like we are too close too stall speed and I don't feel comfortable flying like that ever.
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The solution is to not fly with him if you don't feel safe. While my engine was being overhauled, I flew with a very close friend twice, never again. Now we take both our airplanes.
 
Flying is serious.
Listen to that little voice in your head.
You know what the answer is.
 
He literally sounds like a stall-spin looking for a place to happen. All it will take is a little wind gust, or a short lull in wind, or a left crosswind near 90º so that it's a tailwind on base.

Once would be enough for me, after we landed and I released forward yoke pressure.
 
Is the stall horn set properly? Is it possible the warning is not close enough to stall to be accurate and the PIC is getting complacent about the warning? Either case is not good. :no:

Talk to him about it. Don't be a wennie. Ask him go up and do a series of stalls to ensure the horn is set to go off at the correct air speed above stall, usually 5 knots or higher. Power on stalls to the left, right, and straight until the horn goes off, then see how much lower it will go until the plane actually stalls. Could be the stall horn is not set properly. ;)
 
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If you don't fly that way ,why would you fly with someone who makes you uncomfortable?
 
I DO like hearing the stall horn buzz in the flare a couple of feet above the runway. In the pattern is definitely NOT the place to hear the stall horn!
 
Does he have a STOL kit on the plane? When we installed our dropped wingtips and stall dams, the performance of the stall warning horn changed. I think that its sensitivity can be changed.

On the other hand, an approach at 45 kt, even with a STOL kit, seems very slow. I'd be uncomfortable enough to stop flying with him.
 
Unregistered said:
I've been flying with another pilot who insists it is acceptable for the stall warning horn to be blaring completely through base and final. This is my first flight with said pilot and I had to fight the urge to push the controls forward as we were flying a 45 kt approach in a C-152.

I don't know how to tell the guy I feel like we are too close too stall speed and I don't feel comfortable flying like that ever.
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It would depend on my comfort level with the pilot, but in general I wouldn't like it.

I once rode with someone in a 172 and after liftoff the stall warning was lightly chirping on the whole climb to pattern altitude. This pilot was a CFI with bagloads more experience than I will ever have. I was totally comfortable in that situation.
 
Bill Jennings said:
It would depend on my comfort level with the pilot, but in general I wouldn't like it.

I once rode with someone in a 172 and after liftoff the stall warning was lightly chirping on the whole climb to pattern altitude. This pilot was a CFI with bagloads more experience than I will ever have. I was totally comfortable in that situation.
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The occasional chirp on climbout I can deal with - anything else about 5' altitude is verboten...
 
Bill Jennings said:
It would depend on my comfort level with the pilot, but in general I wouldn't like it.

I once rode with someone in a 172 and after liftoff the stall warning was lightly chirping on the whole climb to pattern altitude. This pilot was a CFI with bagloads more experience than I will ever have. I was totally comfortable in that situation.
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Why does he climb out just above stall speed instead of Vx or Vy? Just curious???
 
Geico266 said:
Is the stall horn set properly?
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If they're flying the approach with 45 knots indicated on the airspeed indicator as the OP said and the stall horn was not sounding, I would send the plane back to maintenance to have one device or the other fixed. That said, I think I can tell based on experience the difference between 45 knots and the more appropriate 55 knots for a 152 on final, and would be able to suggest which one maintenance should look at first.

As for someone flying approaches at 45 KIAS and the stall horn sounding in a C-152 with an accurate airspeed indicator, that's too bloody slow, and if the pilot is insistent about doing that, whoever is supervising the pilot doing that should be informed.
 
This thread kind of reminds me of the Alaska C-17 pilot who believed it was not possible to stall a C-17. That didn't end well.
 
I would ask him why he does the approach at 45. That just seems weird to me. If he can't give you a good answer for it, I wouldn't fly with the guy.
 
That doesn't work for me. If any deviation is needed/accepted, it's on the high side of target speeds in the pattern.
 
Everyone: this one is easy. Don't talk with him, or fly with him. There's no reason in the world to fly a pattern at the edge of a stall.

Unregistered said:
I've been flying with another pilot who insists it is acceptable for the stall warning horn to be blaring completely through base and final. This is my first flight with said pilot and I had to fight the urge to push the controls forward as we were flying a 45 kt approach in a C-152.

I don't know how to tell the guy I feel like we are too close too stall speed and I don't feel comfortable flying like that ever.
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45knots sounds too slow. ASI's can get glitchy at those speeds.

I have an AOA in our 180, and the stall horn never goes off during any phase of the approach until the rubber meets the road.
 
Hell no, I won't go!

The FBO where I finished my PPL had a 172 with a yoke that squeaked very close to the pitch of the stall horn when it was pulled back at about the same point as rotation and beginning of the flare. Took me quite some time to fight the urge to shove it forward when it did that. The plane went down for "maintenance" after the AI quit, and never made it back to the line. It was otherwise a good flying plane, but seemed to always end up in maintenance with one squawk or another.
 
I spoke with him about my concerns today. He got a little defensive and insisted that 45 knots is 10 above stall with flaps and provides a good margin of error. At this point I'm worried he really is going to end up in a stall spin in the pattern sooner or later. I know his CFI from our club and am wondering if I should approach the CFI about this. I don't want him to feel like I'm going behind his back, but he is putting himself at unnecesary risk.
 
I had a similar situation where I was flying a Cherokee with a guy who was about 15 kts fast on final. I said 15 kts fast. He said ok. He then proceeded to flare 50 ft above the ground and the speed was bleeding off fast and I really thought we were going to collapse the nose gear. So i told him to go around. He didn't say anything, we ended up touching down really hard but with no damage thankfully. He then told me not to talk during his landing and I need to shut up and let him concentrate. Pretty much verbatim. I told him that it is important that crews talk to each other and if there are deviations by any pilot, they should communicate. He got really defensive like I was trying to point out his flaws from the flight but in reality I just wanted the flight to be safe.
 
Unregistered said:
I spoke with him about my concerns today. He got a little defensive and insisted that 45 knots is 10 above stall with flaps and provides a good margin of error. At this point I'm worried he really is going to end up in a stall spin in the pattern sooner or later. I know his CFI from our club and am wondering if I should approach the CFI about this. I don't want him to feel like I'm going behind his back, but he is putting himself at unnecesary risk.
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If you feel you ought to tell on him, why were you flying with him or posting about it? Simply stay away from him in an aircraft. If he got defensive, then you have done your duty. Move on.
 
Unregistered said:
I spoke with him about my concerns today. He got a little defensive and insisted that 45 knots is 10 above stall with flaps and provides a good margin of error. At this point I'm worried he really is going to end up in a stall spin in the pattern sooner or later. I know his CFI from our club and am wondering if I should approach the CFI about this. I don't want him to feel like I'm going behind his back, but he is putting himself at unnecesary risk.
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When you attend his funeral and see his family crying at the gravesite, will you say to yourself "I should have said something..."?
 
I don't have a lot of friends because I would probably tell the guy ..

"you're flying too damn slow and you're going to kill someone you asshat! Do it again with me in the plane, and I'm gonna kick your ass!"

Unquote ... ;)
 
Unregistered said:
I've been flying with another pilot who insists it is acceptable for the stall warning horn to be blaring completely through base and final. This is my first flight with said pilot and I had to fight the urge to push the controls forward as we were flying a 45 kt approach in a C-152.



I don't know how to tell the guy I feel like we are too close too stall speed and I don't feel comfortable flying like that ever.
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Slow to getting to this thread because I'm chronically behind on PoA, but here's your answers...

If you want to save your life, don't get in his airplane.

If you want to save his life, ask him to show you in his POH what happens to stall speed in a bank.
 
Unregistered said:
I spoke with him about my concerns today. He got a little defensive and insisted that 45 knots is 10 above stall with flaps and provides a good margin of error. At this point I'm worried he really is going to end up in a stall spin in the pattern sooner or later. I know his CFI from our club and am wondering if I should approach the CFI about this. I don't want him to feel like I'm going behind his back, but he is putting himself at unnecesary risk.
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I'm having a hard time believing this is even true. Assuming it is, though, go the hell behind his back, talk to his CFI, show him the POH.

Have you had friends or family die on you when you might have been able to prevent it if you'd said something? I do. I recommend you risk his anger and SAY SOMETHING.
 
Unregistered said:
I spoke with him about my concerns today. He got a little defensive and insisted that 45 knots is 10 above stall with flaps and provides a good margin of error. At this point I'm worried he really is going to end up in a stall spin in the pattern sooner or later. I know his CFI from our club and am wondering if I should approach the CFI about this. I don't want him to feel like I'm going behind his back, but he is putting himself at unnecesary risk.
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Maybe try the Socratic method. Ask him why he uses 45 when the book says 55-65 for approach. Ask him what the point of a stall warning horn is if he's going to ignore it. And so on.
 
Well I talked to his CFI. Now I just set in motion a whole big process :(. The CFI was freaking out insisting he taught him a 65kt approach. The president of the club happens to hear this and he freaks out thinking the guy is going to kill himself and destroy an airplane (which I understand is possible). Now they won't let my friend fly anything until he checks out with another instructor. The instructor is ****ed because now he looks bad for signing my friend off in the first place and my friend won't even talk to me because I've effectively grounded him. All he had to say was, "So you're gonna pay for this checkout..?"

So I'm pretty sure I've ****ed off a CFI and friend. Hard to feel like I made the right choice but we'll see...
 
Unregistered said:
Well I talked to his CFI. Now I just set in motion a whole big process :(. The CFI was freaking out insisting he taught him a 65kt approach. The president of the club happens to hear this and he freaks out thinking the guy is going to kill himself and destroy an airplane (which I understand is possible). Now they won't let my friend fly anything until he checks out with another instructor. The instructor is ****ed because now he looks bad for signing my friend off in the first place and my friend won't even talk to me because I've effectively grounded him. All he had to say was, "So you're gonna pay for this checkout..?"

So I'm pretty sure I've ****ed off a CFI and friend. Hard to feel like I made the right choice but we'll see...
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Well, you did the ethical thing, your conscience should be clear in this case, IMO. The CFI has no reason to be mad, he CANNOT control the actions of another, he can only reinforce correct behaviors.

My apologies but I cannot imagine having this kind of reaction if my friend pointed out the errors in my ways and was trying to prevent me from killing myself and possibly others.

I would rethink your definition of 'friend' if this is the reaction he has. He exhibits some dangerous, anti-longevity behaviors.
 
I agree completely with GregH. You did the right thing. And the CFI involved has no reason to be annoyed with you, but rather should be grateful that you may have saved him from having to make explanation to the FAA after the pilot concerned crashed with his signature in that pilot's logbook.
 
Unregistered said:
I spoke with him about my concerns today. He got a little defensive and insisted that 45 knots is 10 above stall with flaps and provides a good margin of error. At this point I'm worried he really is going to end up in a stall spin in the pattern sooner or later. I know his CFI from our club and am wondering if I should approach the CFI about this. I don't want him to feel like I'm going behind his back, but he is putting himself at unnecesary risk.
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Already asked and answered. Make him show you in the POH and include bank angle.

Otherwise walk away.
 
Unregistered said:
So I'm pretty sure I've ****ed off a CFI and friend. Hard to feel like I made the right choice but we'll see...
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This was a tough decision you had to make. Sometimes it seems like a no-win situation. Your friend may never realize your commendable motives for speaking up, or maybe he will, but at least you know why you did it and you can know that your friend may have averted an unfortunate accident. You should feel good about that. The CFI, though, should be more understanding than your friend. They know that pilots need flight reviews and often fall into bad habits when left on their own. I'd be surprised if the CFI is ****ed at you. They want to know when pilots are unsafe.

Here's a very crazy idea that you definitely do NOT have to consider, but I'll throw it out there -- if this is a friendship that you value, how about helping your friend with the cost of the checkout? Maybe offer 50%? You are certainly not obligated in the least, and you do not owe this to your friend, but maybe it's a way of making your friend realize you care and that's why you spoke up.
 
jstro said:
This was a tough decision you had to make. Sometimes it seems like a no-win situation. Your friend may never realize your commendable motives for speaking up, or maybe he will, but at least you know why you did it and you can know that your friend may have averted an unfortunate accident. You should feel good about that. The CFI, though, should be more understanding than your friend. They know that pilots need flight reviews and often fall into bad habits when left on their own. I'd be surprised if the CFI is ****ed at you. They want to know when pilots are unsafe.

Here's a very crazy idea that you definitely do NOT have to consider, but I'll throw it out there -- if this is a friendship that you value, how about helping your friend with the cost of the checkout? Maybe offer 50%? You are certainly not obligated in the least, and you do not owe this to your friend, but maybe it's a way of making your friend realize you care and that's why you spoke up.
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:yeahthat:
 
Unregistered said:
All he had to say was, "So you're gonna pay for this checkout..?"
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If he is a real friend, tell him, "Yes. Gladly. If you really want me to pay after you finish the check ride, it's more than worth it to me to keep you around a while longer."
 
Unregistered said:
I had to fight the urge to push the controls forward as we were flying a 45 kt approach in a C-152
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Unregistered said:
I spoke with him about my concerns today. He got a little defensive and insisted that 45 knots is 10 above stall with flaps and provides a good margin of error...
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i thought that approach speed was supposed to be stall speed x 1.3.

cessna 152 white arc is 35-85.

45 / 35 = 1.29

so 45 appears to be 1.3 x stall speed (with flaps down). based on this, it sounds like the pilot was on speed.

further checking (1980 c152 poh) shows that worst case (forward cg) stall speed at 30 degrees is 38, at 45 degrees it is 42 (kias). so as long as the pilot keeps his maneuvering reasonable (30 degrees or less in the pattern) he will not experience an accelerated stall at 45 kias.

the 1980 c152 poh does recommend 55-65 kias normal approach with full flaps, and 54 kias for a short field. this seems faster than necessary based on the stall speed.

so what am i missing here?

granted, at these low airspeeds, .3 of airspeed doesn't offer a lot of margin. maybe this is why the poh recommends faster? but in most airplanes, if you cross the threshold at stall speed x 1.3 + 10 you will float. is the c152 different in this regard?

(also - if you were were really getting a stall horn at 45 kias in straight and level flight, it sounds like the horn needs an adjustment for a 35 kias stall speed.)

edit - just realized this is my first post here. so hello! i've been reading this board for awhile, lurking i guess.

anyway, i'm low time, fly a 182 out of smo, i'm genuinely interested in why folks are reacting so strongly to this situation.

thanks... ...j182
 
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j182smo said:
i thought that approach speed was supposed to be stall speed x 1.3.

cessna 152 white arc is 35-85.

45 / 35 = 1.29

so 45 appears to be 1.3 x stall speed (with flaps down). based on this, it sounds like the pilot was on speed.
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NO!

Recheck your 182 as well.

That 1.3 works in CAS. IAS near stall is NOT close. At full flap and max gross, 35 KIAS is 43 KCAS. 1.3*Vs0 is 56 KCAS, which is 55 KIAS. And the checklist says 55-65 KIAS, so that checks.

You just made a 10 knot error on the wrong side of the power curve. Very serious.
 
MAKG1 said:
NO!

Recheck your 182 as well.

That 1.3 works in CAS. IAS near stall is NOT close. At full flap and max gross, 35 KIAS is 43 KCAS. 1.3*Vs0 is 56 KCAS, which is 55 KIAS. And the checklist says 55-65 KIAS, so that checks.

You just made a 10 knot error on the wrong side of the power curve. Very serious.
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thank you for the reply. looked more closely at the 152 cas.

now i'm more confused, because in the 1980 c152 poh i'm reading, on the stall speeds chart it says that 35kias = 43kcas at full flaps, but on the airspeed calibration chart it says that 40kias = 43kcas at full flaps (unless i'm misreading it?) i don't think it can't be both, so the data does not seem consistent.

it seems like the ias error increases at lower speeds... which explains the 'high' recommended kias approach speed.

my 182 asi is in mph, so none of this matters anyway. (jk)

i am double checking my own speeds now ;)
 
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