Each state has a SAR plan, usually with the dept of public safety (e.g. State Patrol dispatch). They receive the call from the USAF and then either go through the local sheriffs dept. (for ground search) or their own aviation division or National Guard for air based search. SAR doesn't rely much on federal assets, most of the time it is goimg to be a volunteer group like a mountain rescue group in conjunction with sheriffs deputies who start out on 4-wheelers or by foot.
SPOT vs. 406 plb
- Thread starter dennyleeb
- Start date
Each state has a SAR plan, usually with the dept of public safety (e.g. State Patrol dispatch). They receive the call from the USAF and then either go through the local sheriffs dept. (for ground search) or their own aviation division or National Guard for air based search. SAR doesn't rely much on federal assets, most of the time it is goimg to be a volunteer group like a mountain rescue group in conjunction with sheriffs deputies who start out on 4-wheelers or by foot.
Doggtyred
En-Route
SPOT goes to a call center who then calls the PSAP. Like every other alarm call, it likely gets a single asset dispatched. Nonurgently.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Colorado's plan bypasses the local agencies for aircraft SAR *only* and the first call from AFRCC is to CAP. There's follow on calls to the State EOC or local agencies.
Wyoming has laws that require the local Sheriff be contacted first even on aircraft searches. In fact, WYWG can't launch aircraft without the Sheriff's approval.
It has to do with funding and where it comes from. A CAP SAR mission in Colorado is paid by the USAF funds set aside by Congress for inland SAR, or State funds directly. In Wyoming the State pays the Sheriff who pays CAP if USAF isn't paying. Yadda. Yadda.
It's convoluted. Each State will be different. The duty watch at AFRCC has all the data on whom to call for what. Example: AFRCC will call CAP in Colorado for an ELT (aircraft) but the Sheriff for a PLB.
CAP in Colorado is dual-hatted as both a National resource and a division of the Veteran's Affairs State branch. Yup. Weird but it's effective. Chain of Command Nationally goes up to Maxwell AFB and CAP General Amy Courtier. Locally it goes up to Gen Mike Edwards COWG ANG.
For interoperability - all agencies are now FEMA Incident Command System trained. Etc, etc, etc.
In coastal areas AFRCC might be tasked to notify USCG first, I hear. Which makes sense.
Alan will probably be along shortly to correct any Colorado info I've screwed up. Ha.
Executive Summary: "It varies greatly by State."
Executive Summary: "It varies greatly by State."
Did I mention that it is state specific documented in a state SAR plan
Iirc. In MD all aircraft alerts go to MSP, all ground to the respective county PD (inner burbs like montgomery and prince george) or sheriff (backwoods).
alaskaflyer
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In Alaska all SPOT IERCC calls go to the Alaska RCC, which is like a miniature Air Force RCC just for Alaska operated by the 176th Wing of the Air Guard. They (the Air National Guard) then determine which is the responsible agency for any particular piece of real estate and call them. Most of the time it is the state troopers. Sometimes it is the National Park Service or a local agency. Sometimes the Coast Guard. If they have reason to believe it is an aircraft mishap they will immediately task Air Guard resources to respond as well.
But Alaska is not typical.
On our incident from last weekend it was approximately ten minutes from SPOT button activation until our park emergency communications center received a call from the AKRCC. Not too bad.
But Alaska is not typical.
On our incident from last weekend it was approximately ten minutes from SPOT button activation until our park emergency communications center received a call from the AKRCC. Not too bad.
gismo
Touchdown! Greaser!
Since I have a PLB and a 406 ELT perhaps both the Sheriff and CAP will come looking.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Ha. I probably shouldn't mention that Sherriffs are flaky creatures and have been known to ban aircraft doing searches outright for no good reason then.
I've seen some interesting scenarios where an aircraft just miraculously just "happened" to have launched for a "routine training mission" five minutes after such flakey creatures said no, too. Depending on the size of the cojones of the Incident Commander and his or her confidence that the crew would actually find something when they "accidentally diverted" to the search area.
SAR is a strange world of egos sometimes. But with both types going, if you can survive a night in the woods, someone's coming for sure.
We had one this year where the aircrew couldn't have stayed more than five more minutes because night was setting in. The Observer absolutely *nailed* an aerial photo of a light that when it was analyzed an hour or so later, revealed that it had to be a campfire where there shouldn't have been one.
Ground SAR was ready to call it off for the night when they got the word, and the folks were found before daybreak. They'll go all night if they think you're alive. They'll lower their team's risk and stop for a while if they think it's a body recovery.
It really proved the worth of good camera gear and someone who knows how to use it. We've been running big drills on weekends for camera use and a big "Train the Trainers" on the new CAP Aerial Photography rating is in a month. I'm in that class and the homework is a pretty massive text. I'm looking forward to it and then applying it.
The other one this year that was odd was the Malibu from AZ that went down in the Sangre de Christo mountains. Later analysis showed it dropped straight down into the forest.
The ground teams had a good beacon but ultimately found it via their noses. The trees were covered in fuel. The aircraft virtually buried itself in snow even with almost no forward motion. The give-aways were the smell and the trees with no snow on their branches in a circle as big as the aircraft. That was it.
Huge kudos to some USFS guys who tougher it out in a blizzard until 03:00 looking for the aircraft. They were popsicles by the time they came in. Lots of people put themselves at great risk just driving down to the area that night in the blizzard. The "find" via nose was the next morning, late.
ISUHawkeye
Pre-Flight
Thanks again for the info. As I continue to look at the systems I constantly wonder how my situation would unfold. If I'm laying in my cornfield next to a busted up plane
I activate my spot
1. I hope the satellite system picks up my signal
2. I wait for the spot controller to call my contact info
2. I wait for the private controller to send out a sheriff
3. I wait for the sheriff to respond to the latitude longitude provided
4. I get rescued
Or
I activate my 406 ELT/PLB
1. I have a more reliable satalite network
2. I wait for the AFRCC to call my registration contact info
3. The AFRCC staff to call a CAP IC (my state)
4. Search crews are mobilized
5. I get rescued
I just wonder which system gets me in an ambulance and off to the hospital quicker and more reliably
I activate my spot
1. I hope the satellite system picks up my signal
2. I wait for the spot controller to call my contact info
2. I wait for the private controller to send out a sheriff
3. I wait for the sheriff to respond to the latitude longitude provided
4. I get rescued
Or
I activate my 406 ELT/PLB
1. I have a more reliable satalite network
2. I wait for the AFRCC to call my registration contact info
3. The AFRCC staff to call a CAP IC (my state)
4. Search crews are mobilized
5. I get rescued
I just wonder which system gets me in an ambulance and off to the hospital quicker and more reliably
TMetzinger
Final Approach
One of the neat things about a registered 406 beacon is that you can go and add comments to the registration. So if you're going on a trip or something you can put details on there so that the AFRCC will be more confident. I once put in a comment that said something like "will be conducting offshore flights from Wallops Island facility on these dates. If this beacon goes off in that area COME GET ME!"
Well, depends on if you ruptured your spleen or not. If you did, it's pretty irrelevant which was set off, you're gonna die.
Even AFRCC will make phone calls before dispatching. Either way it is likely that local emergency services are going to get the call and be the first responders if you are in the eastern 2/3rds of the US or on the west coast. Thing is if local emergency services are what we shall call "lame", the 406 has a lot bigger Calvary coming behind them a lot faster.
This is not to mention that the SPOT system has the possibility to go bankrupt and turn off at anytime. Globalstar has to be struggling with their crappy service.
From the reliability of service standpoint, the 406 hands down, and really, isn't that the thing you look for most in an emergency device?
dennyleeb
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I don't think this is a very accurate account of what would happen if I used SPOT like I described.
Like I said on a IFR flight plan so ATC knows general area and that there is a emergency. Then the spot and 121.5. ATC should already be getting info out and would know I have the SPOT and 121.5 to assist in the rescue.
dennyleeb
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Everyone keeps talking about how the SPOT is so unreliable. I am getting a PLB but where is your proof. Show me some evidence that the spot has failed people. I think these are more opinions than facts. If you ask me which I trust more a company trying to keep from being sued and trying to make a profit or the government. I will probably take my chances with the company.
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Mike I
Line Up and Wait
http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_15314187
"When i got to him he was breathing heavily and both his arms looked broken, both of our spot trackers malfunctioned at a terrible time. I waited 30 minutes by chance that the distress signal did go out, tried to comfort Kevin, and after no response from either Kevin or SaR. I made the hardest decision of my life and had to hike out, leaving my partner behind"
Granted, this is just one incident. I'm sure Googling can turn up more. But as Henning said...
Henning said:
From owning a spot I can tell you that a number of the routine messages dont make it through. As the '911' and 'help' messages use the same radio path, I am not terribly confident that they would make it through either.
The problem with SPOT is that it is built on satellite constellation that is pretty thin at this point. The bird it has to communicate with may be at a rather low elevation and unless your unit happens to be pointed that way or if mountains obscure the path, the message will not make it through.
If you want a private sector solution that has a better chance of working, go with any of the iridium based services, or maybe even a sat-phone. GPS is not fail proof, at times GPS units will not lock on either.
With a PLB, whoever is looking for you may be able to home in on either the 121.5mhz or the 406mhz signal to find your busted up body. There have been cases where rescuers were within shouting distance of a downed plane or lost hiker yet it took hours to actually get to them.
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Mike I
Line Up and Wait
Additionally, the Globalstar constellation doesn't pass messages satellite-to-satellite. The Globalstar sat needs to see both the SPOT and the ground station at the same time for the message to get through. COSPAS-SARSAT satellites can "store-and-forward" the distress call, receiving it from the PLB and retransmitting it when in communication with a ground station. Iridium satellites are capable of satellite-to-satellite message passing, and as such are always in touch with a ground station.
Personal experience with several rounds of GlobalStar equipment. If you would choose a hack third rate service provider that isn't profitable over the USAF, when it is tasked as one of their missions, to get you a-- out of a sling, I just don't know what to say about that. I've talked to AF personnel including CAP, and I've talked to Customer Service at GlobalStar (when it would see a satellite and go through), I'll take the USAF any day.
Globalstar's system is a nightmare. Single Side Band and the Marine Operator are clearer, more reliable and cheaper....
Everskyward
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Are we talking about aviation uses here? Do you not have an ELT in your airplane or do you think that's not good enough? Or are we talking about people going hiking and such?
I have never looked into either of these items but from what I can understand from this thread the SPOT is something you might use more as an informational tool and the PLB would be used only in an emergency.
I have never looked into either of these items but from what I can understand from this thread the SPOT is something you might use more as an informational tool and the PLB would be used only in an emergency.
That would be a correct assessment. SPOT is for your family and friends to be able to see where you are and to get short non critical messages through to them. Selling it as an emergency device is bad form and will likely lead to a lawsuit that will finally ruin them.
tonycondon
Gastons CRO (Chief Dinner Reservation Officer)
i have a SPOT-2 that i carry whenever i fly the glider or when taking trips in a club plane or road trips. As far as I know as long as i'm not inside a hangar or something it has always sent out the tracking message and i have never had an issue with getting the OK text message after I landed. I'm not trying to transmit from a 100 ft tall stand of old growth pine trees though, usually i'm out in the middle of a farm field somewhere with a clear view of the sky.
The original SPOT devices had a lot more issues from what I recall. I really like my SPOT, although the primary reason I got it was to help Leah find me when I land out, not for SAR.
The original SPOT devices had a lot more issues from what I recall. I really like my SPOT, although the primary reason I got it was to help Leah find me when I land out, not for SAR.
dennyleeb
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All equipment can malfunction. I promise a PLB can malfunction as well.
dennyleeb
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back to my question,
If on IFR flight plan, with a 121.5 and a spot locator, you don't think that would be enough info for them to find you? They already know there is a emergency. They already know a general location. They would also know you are trying to use both the 121.5 and the Spot locator.
Mike I
Line Up and Wait
I don't disagree with that. However, for me the documented failure rates for SPOT is alarming and makes me seriously question its reliability.
SPOT II recall: http://www.equipped.org/blog/?p=172
Reliability comparison: http://offroute.typepad.com/weblog/personal-locator-beacons-.html
SPOT Communicator recall: http://www.findmespot.com/replacement/
http://offroute.typepad.com/weblog/personal-locator-beacons-.html
None of this instills much confidence in the SPOT product, nor do the REI reviews I posted at the beginning of this thread nor the replies from others here saying not all messages go through.
Your original question:
Seems you've gotten a comparison, in spades, as well as the advantages and disadvantages.
Just because you're on an IFR flight plan and can make a distress call on 121.5 (assuming your electrical system isn't part of the failure and you have time to make that call) doesn't mean your SPOT will get a message out, as shown from all of the posts with complaints about the reliability of SPOT. As has been said before, if you want to trust your life to something, it should be a PLB.
Is the SPOT going to work? Are you going to be somewhere where 121.5 is going to be found? I don't know why you keep asking the same question over and over, do you think something has changed? No, I don't think a SPOT is an equal replacement for a 406PLB. If you don't want to spend the money on a 406 unit, then don't. Just don't tell yourself that it's just as good. It may be "good enough" or it may not. If you want to accept the additional risk, that is fine by me, just make your decisions fully aware.
Oh yeah, many of the places where you will actually need a beacon (i.e. sparse population and no one noticed you go in) you may be off radar for a couple thousand feet of descent. If you go into trees with that kind of search area, you'll likely not be found until hunting season. Every year you read stories about hunters finding a plane that has been missing for years and even decades.
It's the "Last Mile" stuff that makes a big difference. Sometimes areas get searched for days.
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Also, just being on an IFR flight plan does not mean that they know where you are...and 121.5 isn't monitored by the satellites anymore.
Inverted
Cleared for Takeoff
Well, if an IFR flight plan, and 121.5 were good enough, we wouldn't need something like SPOT. With SPOT's horrible reliability record, it seems useless if you cannot rely on it with confidence in an emergency.
There is a great podcast done by Steve Tupper about ELT's and accuracy. 121.5 ELT's for lack of a better word, suck. The search area for a 121.5 ELT is huge, if I remember correctly its several hundred square miles. A 406 ELT is much more accurate. Also an IFR flight plan does not guarantee radar coverage, so they have no idea where you are. They have an idea of the route you filed, but have no idea if you navigated 50nm off course into a mountain half way along your route. The only thing that gives me warm and fuzzies is being on radar coverage, either flight following or in the system IFR. That way they can see you dip off radar.
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denverpilot
Tied Down
Both a SPOT and a PLB require a conscious operator. ELT requires a specific number of Gs at impact. That's the main "unreliable" there. Far worse than the technological issues.
No one's brought up the idea of carrying an Iridium phone. Seems to me, even as flakey as they are, having used one at high latitudes... It's going to get someone moving *right now* if they have a voice on the other end saying, "Damn, my spleen hurts."
I hate it when I rupture my spleen. So annoying.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Serious question: Do you often land out where your cell phone doesn't work? That plus you reading off your portable GPS seems pretty adequate to find you? Just curious.
DeeG
Cleared for Takeoff
We've been thinking about the a SPOT or PLB for the last three years, I am probably going to get one of the ACR units.
i don't need all the whizz bang stuff, and i hate the thought that I have to shell out $$ every year just to have the locator service.
About two months ago, we (the comm center I work for) got a call from the SPOT folks about a hiker up in the Cascades that was overdue. Out of the half dozen times the hiker pushed the button, they got ONE hit with lat/long. ONE. While it gave us a rough idea of where he was (lucky for him, he had a detailed 'hike plan' that he had given to friends), we had no clue if he was on the move, injured and immobile, nothing. In fact, while I was on the phone with the SPOT guy, he told me, "Well, we just got another activation, but we didn't get a lat/long, just an activation." So what does that tell me, I ask? "It means he pushed the 911 button again. But for whatever reason, we didn't get anything but that." nice.
The weather started off great, but the next day, there was sub freezing temps, snow, rain, etc, up in the mountains. All his gear got wet, he was soaked, but uninjured. Turns out he was on the move, but we had no way of knowing.
It was good that he could set the thing off numerous times, but what good is that if the unit won't update his location???
But, on the other hand, we have gotten several good signals from them and have done several successful rescues. And some recoveries as well, but SPOT or not, it was a recovery from the get go.
i don't need all the whizz bang stuff, and i hate the thought that I have to shell out $$ every year just to have the locator service.
About two months ago, we (the comm center I work for) got a call from the SPOT folks about a hiker up in the Cascades that was overdue. Out of the half dozen times the hiker pushed the button, they got ONE hit with lat/long. ONE. While it gave us a rough idea of where he was (lucky for him, he had a detailed 'hike plan' that he had given to friends), we had no clue if he was on the move, injured and immobile, nothing. In fact, while I was on the phone with the SPOT guy, he told me, "Well, we just got another activation, but we didn't get a lat/long, just an activation." So what does that tell me, I ask? "It means he pushed the 911 button again. But for whatever reason, we didn't get anything but that." nice.
The weather started off great, but the next day, there was sub freezing temps, snow, rain, etc, up in the mountains. All his gear got wet, he was soaked, but uninjured. Turns out he was on the move, but we had no way of knowing.
It was good that he could set the thing off numerous times, but what good is that if the unit won't update his location???
But, on the other hand, we have gotten several good signals from them and have done several successful rescues. And some recoveries as well, but SPOT or not, it was a recovery from the get go.