Sport Pilot - second thoughts

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I've supported the Sport Pilot rule, even though I still have a valid Third Class. But events of yesterday give me second thoughts about the "driver's license medical".

I taxied up to the fuel pumps after a local flight, alongside a Sonex E-LSA that I recognized as belonging to one of the airport old-timers. I noticed the pilot still in the cockpit, and he appeared to be having difficulty lifting himself up out of his seat. I also noticed fuel pouring out of the engine onto to the ramp.

I went over to him, and found him disoriented, weak and very unsteady. He said he couldn't shut off the fuel and had shut down the engine with the ignition switch. I didn't know where the fuel shutoff was, so I reached in and pulled the mixture, which stopped the flow of fuel.

Another bystander ran in to alert the young lady at the FBO desk, who called 911, and came out to help calm down the pilot (she was a star -- great job).

Paramedics came out to the airplane and transported him to the hospital.

Turns out he had just landed the Sonex, in a crosswind, yet (he said it was a "lousy landing"). He's pushing 90 years old, and has been flying since he was 18, when he flew fighters in WW2. He flies an LSA now because of a heart condition. This was a very warm day, and his airplane has a bubble canopy, so dehydration may have been a factor. There was an Aresti diagram taped to the panel, so he may have been doing aerobatics, as well.

The thought of having to stop flying because of medical infirmity makes me shudder -- but it's a fact of life. What if he'd become incapacitated in flight ten minutes earlier instead of at the fuel pit?

Is the driver's license medical sufficient? Is there a happy medium between that and the Byzantine FAA medical bureaucracy?

One day at his ranch in 1994, former President Reagan fell from his horse. A Secret Service agent with him gently said, "Mr. President, perhaps it's time ... " Reagan replied quietly, "I know" -- and never got on a horse again. Would that I can approach the end of my flying days with such dignity, and without having an AME or a letter from OKC tell me.
 
How are we to know that this isn't the first instance of the old man becoming incapacitated? We can't presume that some other kind of physical exam would catch any of us before we had a stroke, heart attack or loss of attention.

Dehydration is a problem with glider pilots, too, or for that matter with anyone who flies log legs without a relief system of some kind and who therefore chooses not to hydrate.

What do you suggest?
 
If this is a reoccuring thing for him than he probably shouldn't have a driver's license either.
 
Maybe a written self-certification in the log book or on some separate form, counter-signed by one's physician on an annual basis, that a person is fit to drive.

The reason I say to drive is because, for liability reasons, most PCPs would be reluctant to sign off on a person's being fit to fly. AMEs are pretty well-insulated by the regs, but PCPs are not. However, the standard for SP is just a driver's license; so a statement by a physician that a person is fit to drive might work.

The real problem (well, one of the problems) with the DL medical is that it allows anyone who wasn't so blind or senile that they couldn't find the DMV on their last renewal date to fly until the license expires, which is years later. My current drivers' license expires in 2019. I think the last renewal was issued in 2010. A lot can happen in nine years.

-Rich
 
meh, I ride with a guy pushing up on 90 all the time, he's a better stick than about anyone I know, probably in better shape too. I'd much rather hear about a guy in Sonex being incapacited and spiraling into a corn field than meet him at 85 MPH on the interstate.

We don't need no "new rules"

Dropping the 3rd class medical for PPL would be a start.
 
Probability of him crashing into a school bus full of small kids on their way to a camp meeting: 1:7.6 bizillion.

Probability of him crashing into almost nothing of interest and killing himself: slightly higher.

Probability of him being left alone to work out his own life and problems, getting assistance only when needed: Zero.
 
Chronological age and physical age are two completely different things. More power to the pilot if he could safely fly until in his 90's, but there does come a time when we all will have to trade in our wings for something else. The magic is not if but knowing when to do that. Until then I intend to fly, but likewise I do not want my epitaph to read he died doing what he loved.
 
RJM62 said:
Maybe a written self-certification in the log book or on some separate form, counter-signed by one's physician on an annual basis, that a person is fit to drive.

The reason I say to drive is because, for liability reasons, most PCPs would be reluctant to sign off on a person's being fit to fly. AMEs are pretty well-insulated by the regs, but PCPs are not. However, the standard for SP is just a driver's license; so a statement by a physician that a person is fit to drive might work.

The real problem (well, one of the problems) with the DL medical is that it allows anyone who wasn't so blind or senile that they couldn't find the DMV on their last renewal date to fly until the license expires, which is years later. My current drivers' license expires in 2019. I think the last renewal was issued in 2010. A lot can happen in nine years.

-Rich
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I agree with Rich about a note from a doctor annually after a certain age to drive. I've known too many people who don't realize or don't admit anything is wrong until someone else intervenes. If there is no one to do that or the person does not comply, the person keeps driving or flying. It's one thing to be a hazard only to yourself but another when others are involved.
 
If you aren't healthy to fly u shouldn't fly.mot sure why sport pilot there is no doctors recommendation at least.
 
...and therein lies the rub. The other rub is mediolegal for the doc who has to endorse the guy....even to operate a car.

Two autumns ago we had one up in NW suburban Chicago- the guy had his MI in his LSA airplane, got it down, rolled off the side of runway and died at Northwestern hospital 6 days later. FAA is counting these events....NTSB is appears is not.

And no, good Lord, we do not want a 4th class medical.
 
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bartmc said:
meh, I ride with a guy pushing up on 90 all the time, he's a better stick than about anyone I know, probably in better shape too. I'd much rather hear about a guy in Sonex being incapacited and spiraling into a corn field than meet him at 85 MPH on the interstate.

We don't need no "new rules"

Dropping the 3rd class medical for PPL would be a start.
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:yeahthat:
 
I had to have that, "perhaps it's time" discussion with one of our tow pilots. He was 77 at the time and had been getting SI for the last few years. We discussed what would happen if he failed his next SI. He and partners are building a Sonex and he flies gliders.

His piloting in the tow plane were not an issue, but let's discuss this before it is an issue. As good stewards of the clubs aircraft and insurability we needed to have "the talk". He agreed that it probably was time, as he acknowledged there were some issues that some of us suspected. He's still in the club , flying gliders, and still making a difference.
 
An easy improvement to the sport pilot regs would be to require that the drivers license be issued within the last two (or whatever number you like) years.

My DL shows not only the expiration date, but also the issued date, which is the date I renewed it. There would be no obstacle to going to the drivers license office to get it renewed every two years, even if that is well before it expires for driving purposes.

The real problem (well, one of the problems) with the DL medical is that it allows anyone who wasn't so blind or senile that they couldn't find the DMV on their last renewal date to fly until the license expires, which is years later. My current drivers' license expires in 2019. I think the last renewal was issued in 2010. A lot can happen in nine years.

-Rich
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NoHeat said:
An easy improvement to the sport pilot regs would be to require that the drivers license be issued within the last two (or whatever number you like) years.

My DL shows not only the expiration date, but also the issued date, which is the date I renewed it. There would be no obstacle to going to the drivers license office to get it renewed every two years, even if that is well before it expires for driving purposes.
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In Colorado you can renew by mail or online. I don't know if there is an age cutoff, though.
 
Oh noz freedom is icky. Let's all call our congressmen and get some gov't bleach out to the airport stat.
 
I don't think any of us want to see people flying that are not medically fit to do so. However, the 3rd Class Medical is (in my opinion) broken. We need a way to lessen the hoops that have to be jumped through to satisfy a government agency. Maybe we need to allow a person's regular physician to certify them as fit to fly, or maybe even allow an AME to use his judgment to do so. The FAA requires too many unnecessary tests and expense for a relatively non-stressful (physically) avocation for many of us. If a person is flying around hauling paying passengers, then a higher standard is warranted. If a person is only hauling around his friends and family (like he or she does in their car), why can't we allow someone like Dr. Bruce to make the judgment regarding whether or not they are physically fit and healthy enough to do that? I personally would be willing to sign some kind of hold harmless clause to keep the doctor from becoming liable in the event something unforeseen happened.
 
Hi I'm doctor nick. Putting it in the hands of doctors is the same as not having any standards, so lets just stop pretending and not have any standards. I guess it would be convenient I could go to the same doc for my disability sign off, methadone, and medical.:goofy:
somorris said:
I don't think any of us want to see people flying that are not medically fit to do so. However, the 3rd Class Medical is (in my opinion) broken. We need a way to lessen the hoops that have to be jumped through to satisfy a government agency. Maybe we need to allow a person's regular physician to certify them as fit to fly, or maybe even allow an AME to use his judgment to do so. The FAA requires too many unnecessary tests and expense for a relatively non-stressful (physically) avocation for many of us. If a person is flying around hauling paying passengers, then a higher standard is warranted. If a person is only hauling around his friends and family (like he or she does in their car), why can't we allow someone like Dr. Bruce to make the judgment regarding whether or not they are physically fit and healthy enough to do that? I personally would be willing to sign some kind of hold harmless clause to keep the doctor from becoming liable in the event something unforeseen happened.
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Hi Greg. Doesn't sound like you have much faith in doctors :). How about we let AME's do it without all the FAA rigamarole?? It seems to be going that way, which I think is a good thing.
 
somorris said:
Hi Greg. Doesn't sound like you have much faith in doctors :). How about we let AME's do it without all the FAA rigamarole?? It seems to be going that way, which I think is a good thing.
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There are perfectly good doctors, but there are enough quacks where it wouldn't be a problem for anybody no matter their health/history to get a 'doc signed off medical.' If you qualify doctors/set up a standard you will eventually end up recreating what we already have. I'm all for freedom, it would make it easier for the disqualified for stupid stuff and the marginals to fly, but it would also let everyone else in(which is OK by me.)
 
bartmc said:
Dropping the 3rd class medical for PPL would be a start.
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Ain't happening, and anyone who says it will is a) dreaming in Technicolor, and b) not working at FAA HQ.

As for the gent in the original post, if he isn't safe to fly, it doesn't matter whether he has a medical certificate, a driver's license, or neither -- he should be encouraged as strongly as necessary to stop flying as PIC by anyone to whom he will listen.
 
How about people use some common f'ing sense.

Regulation aint going to save lives, responsible individuals will

If you had a MI or are insulin dependent and managed to fly off LSA regs, at some point do you say "geeze this might not be such a hot idea"???
 
NineThreeKilo said:
How about people use some common f'ing sense.

Regulation aint going to save lives, responsible individuals will

If you had a MI or are insulin dependent and managed to fly off LSA regs, at some point do you say "geeze this might not be such a hot idea"???
Click to expand...
Common sense just is not all that common. Thus the overburden of rules, and regulations in this world. Maybe it is just my cynical look on life, but it seems to me that the older I get the more amazed I am at what people are capable of doing.

It seems to me that the only rule that applies to most people today is that responsibility is for the other guy not me, no one takes responsibility for anything anymore, well unless there is reward for doing so and then everyone takes responsibility.
 
It is interesting to me ( and disappointing) that the OP is casting a dark cloud over the entire sport pilot category due to the irresponsibility of one person.
 
somorris said:
I personally would be willing to sign some kind of hold harmless clause to keep the doctor from becoming liable in the event something unforeseen happened.
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Your signature is not one that would matter much here. The ones that would be required are those of every member of the public that the FAA thinks they are protecting FROM YOU should something go wrong.
 
Plenty of data showing the abject uselessness of the third class medical, from gliders to Sport pilots. Not that anyone at the FAA is interested in data.
 
Geico266 said:
It is interesting to me ( and disappointing) that the OP is casting a dark cloud over the entire sport pilot category due to the irresponsibility of one person.
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Assuming facts not in evidence. The sport pilot he described obviously was not in the condition the OP found him in when he took off and landed. Very possible he suffered a stroke, or something else after he started to fuel the plane. Unfortunately, any of use can have a catastrophic medical event without warning, does that mean none of use fly solo, or without another pilot.

Personally, as much complaining about the third class medical in reality it is not much more than self reporting. A urinalysis, an eye test, cursory physical examination, vital signs, and paper work mostly. The FAA can check those flying under LSA conditions for conditions that are grounding just as easily as they can for any of the formal medical categories. They apparently just do not.
 
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My sense is that the issue is with the DMV, not with the FAA. In that condition the man would not have been safe driving or flying. Of course, it could also just be a fluke - any medical standard that completely eliminates the risk of a pilot becoming disabled in the air for medical reasons would exclude any human from flying a plane in the first place.

Having worked with somebody who had to go through the DMV medical process in my state I can say that the entire process is highly non-optimal. Much of the DMV process is geared around teenagers learning to drive. The tests often include tons of trivia that no safe and experienced driver is likely to be familiar with and I think this is mainly to make the tests seem harder (frankly the kinds of questions I see on FAA practice tests give me the same concern - I'm never going to take a plane up VFR with 1sm visibility and 1000' ceilings so I could care less what the actual legal minimums are - maybe if I were crop-dusting in the midwest it would be more relevant). Watching somebody who had a stroke have to try to cram for a test when they have moderate difficulty understanding spoken sentences at all was horrible. They really had no problems that would have prevented driving (though I would have concerns with flying in any situation where a radio would be required).

However, requiring periodic retesting of all drivers would probably be a good thing all the same. For starters, if everybody including DMV employees started losing their license every 5 years as a result of dumb test questions I suspect the dumb test questions would get fixed quickly. Chances are that the medical process would become more accommodating as well, since otherwise half the country would fail. Right now the process only works because 99% of the population never is subjected to it. An improved process that is applied systematically would still take care of the rare person who really isn't fit to drive.
 
People want what they want. Some might even fudge a tiny bit to get it.


douglas393 said:
Common sense just is not all that common. Thus the overburden of rules, and regulations in this world. Maybe it is just my cynical look on life, but it seems to me that the older I get the more amazed I am at what people are capable of doing.

It seems to me that the only rule that applies to most people today is that responsibility is for the other guy not me, no one takes responsibility for anything anymore, well unless there is reward for doing so and then everyone takes responsibility.
Click to expand...
 
There is so much profit in keeping bad drivers on the road, no one with the power wants them stopped.
 
NineThreeKilo said:
How about people use some common f'ing sense.

Regulation aint going to save lives, responsible individuals will

If you had a MI or are insulin dependent and managed to fly off LSA regs, at some point do you say "geeze this might not be such a hot idea"???
Click to expand...

Regulation saves lives every day. Mandatory seat belts have saved thousands upon thousands of lives just in the US, far more if you include other countries. Compare US mining operations to Chinese ones if you want to see the different between unregulated and regulated mining.

Maybe this particular proposal isn't a good one, but to say "Regulation aint going to save lives" is a bit too black and white. As another poster said, common sense isn't always so common.
 
Unregistered said:
I've supported the Sport Pilot rule, even though I still have a valid Third Class. But events of yesterday give me second thoughts about the "driver's license medical".

I taxied up to the fuel pumps after a local flight, alongside a Sonex E-LSA that I recognized as belonging to one of the airport old-timers. I noticed the pilot still in the cockpit, and he appeared to be having difficulty lifting himself up out of his seat. I also noticed fuel pouring out of the engine onto to the ramp.

I went over to him, and found him disoriented, weak and very unsteady. He said he couldn't shut off the fuel and had shut down the engine with the ignition switch. I didn't know where the fuel shutoff was, so I reached in and pulled the mixture, which stopped the flow of fuel.

Another bystander ran in to alert the young lady at the FBO desk, who called 911, and came out to help calm down the pilot (she was a star -- great job).

Paramedics came out to the airplane and transported him to the hospital.

Turns out he had just landed the Sonex, in a crosswind, yet (he said it was a "lousy landing"). He's pushing 90 years old, and has been flying since he was 18, when he flew fighters in WW2. He flies an LSA now because of a heart condition. This was a very warm day, and his airplane has a bubble canopy, so dehydration may have been a factor. There was an Aresti diagram taped to the panel, so he may have been doing aerobatics, as well.

The thought of having to stop flying because of medical infirmity makes me shudder -- but it's a fact of life. What if he'd become incapacitated in flight ten minutes earlier instead of at the fuel pit?

Is the driver's license medical sufficient? Is there a happy medium between that and the Byzantine FAA medical bureaucracy?

One day at his ranch in 1994, former President Reagan fell from his horse. A Secret Service agent with him gently said, "Mr. President, perhaps it's time ... " Reagan replied quietly, "I know" -- and never got on a horse again. Would that I can approach the end of my flying days with such dignity, and without having an AME or a letter from OKC tell me.
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wabower said:
People want what they want. Some might even fudge a tiny bit to get it.
Click to expand...


Gee ya think?:yes:
 
rwellner98 said:
Regulation saves lives every day. Mandatory seat belts have saved thousands upon thousands of lives just in the US, far more if you include other countries. Compare US mining operations to Chinese ones if you want to see the different between unregulated and regulated mining.

Maybe this particular proposal isn't a good one, but to say "Regulation aint going to save lives" is a bit too black and white. As another poster said, common sense isn't always so common.
Click to expand...

Given the choice I choose FREEDOM!!!! :D
melgibsonbraveheartphot_zps9374e99c.jpg
 
steingar said:
Plenty of data showing the abject uselessness of the third class medical, from gliders to Sport pilots. Not that anyone at the FAA is interested in data.
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Doc Bruce tells us they are actively counting the medical mishaps with SP guys. This would lead a conspiracy minded person to presume that regulation will follow.
 
Yup. To save your life I am going to lobby for a regulation pulling your pilots certificate. You are welcome.
rwellner98 said:
Regulation saves lives every day. Mandatory seat belts have saved thousands upon thousands of lives just in the US, far more if you include other countries. Compare US mining operations to Chinese ones if you want to see the different between unregulated and regulated mining.

Maybe this particular proposal isn't a good one, but to say "Regulation aint going to save lives" is a bit too black and white. As another poster said, common sense isn't always so common.
Click to expand...
 
ClimbnSink said:
Yup. To save your life I am going to lobby for a regulation pulling your pilots certificate. You are welcome.
Click to expand...

N Korea has a perfectly spotless GA safety record. There has never been a GA indecent, accident, injury, or fatality. They are to be congratulated and emulated. ;)
 
Unregistered said:
...I noticed the pilot still in the cockpit, and he appeared to be having difficulty lifting himself up out of his seat. I also noticed fuel pouring out of the engine onto to the ramp.

I went over to him, and found him disoriented, weak and very unsteady...

Paramedics came out to the airplane and transported him to the hospital...

Turns out he had just landed the Sonex, in a crosswind, yet...
Click to expand...

Sounds like he was behaving like a 90-year-old under stressful conditions, had been competent enough to land in a crosswind, and that the biggest risk of the day was the issue of spilling fuel.

"Transported to the hospital" is a frustratingly incomplete end to the story. What happened when he got there? Was he actually suffering a medical issue, or was somebody just paying off an ambulance at his expense?

We have to be careful about wishing more rulemaking upon ourselves. The facts seem to support a relaxing of medical restrictions on pilots, not tightening. I believe we're still having fewer incapacitation fatalities among Sport Pilots than among pilots flying with third-class medicals.

So far, the "big ground theory" seems to have logic behind it.
 
PW_Plack said:
"Transported to the hospital" is a frustratingly incomplete end to the story. What happened when he got there? Was he actually suffering a medical issue, or was somebody just paying off an ambulance at his expense?
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Good news, he was released from the hospital the next day. Diagnosis heat exhaustion.
 
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