Spin Training Poll

[KennyFlys]

According to my log book, I had spin training during a couple of lessons in 1965 as part of my private pilot training. I'm not sure if it was required back then, or not. Regardless, I do not even remember the experience.

I was thinking it was taken out of the requirements back in the 1950's. I'm sure a couple Bob's on the board would know.

BTW, I've established a new rule. Any time I ever have to recover from a spin after my student has gotten us into one, the student owes me dinner at Ruth's Chris. So, I figure about once a year I'll be hoping there's a student who won't quite hold that rudder in.

 

[dmccormack]

BTW, I've established a new rule. Any time I ever have to recover from a spin after my student has gotten us into one, the student owes me dinner at Ruth's Chris. So, I figure about once a year I'll be hoping there's a student who won't quite hold that rudder in.

Now THAT's an Idea!!!

I'll just change it to Mortons...

 

[TMetzinger]

Bet on that one. During my CFI training, I found two other CFIs I flew with who would not let me do a full break stall. I was doing a power-on, turning stall and dang near scared the crap out of one. It became rather benign to me.

I get more bugged if I can't get the thing to stall like the DA-40 would not. It just sits there and buffets forever. You have to reduce power if you really want a full break.

Yeah, the Diamonds and the Cirri really are stall/spin resistant, the way their wings are designed the outer portions of the wing just keep flying even when the root is stalled.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Spin recovery training goes hand in hand with spin avoidance training and helps make the whole inadvertant spin scenario more real, more avoidable and more recoverable from.

 

[gibbons]

I'm still singing the same song I've been singing about spins for a few years:

• Spin training with a qualified pilot is very valuable. It's quite eye opening to see how fast an airplane can spin under the bottom from a skidding turn, and how many feet it takes to recover, and how easily you can recover if you know exactly what to do. It reinforces spin avoidance.
• Spin training has no place in private pilot instruction as the vast majority of CFI's have practically no experience with spins, and they sure as hell have no practical experience with spins. Two turns in a C150 doesn't cut it.
• If you want good spin training go to an experienced aerobatic pilot with an appropriate airplane. The chances are good that your CFI doesn't have more than a superficial knowledge in this area.

 

[n20junkie]

Where is the poll choice, for I've spun a plane many times (C-150) but have no official training/endorsement. I know your all gonna call me stupid, but believe it or not, one can read and take stuff in steps. After practicing power on stalls, I put my cessna into an incepent phase of the spin, and paniced. I decided that I would read as much as i could, and then go practice. I probably learned more than most instructors (talking the 18-23 year old ones) that have just done the training for the CFI and no more. After a few incepent recoveries, I moved on to 2 turn and 3 turn spins. All done at 6,000 AGL, and never had that much fun in my life.

 

[dmccormack]

Where is the poll choice, for I've spun a plane many times (C-150) but have no official training/endorsement. I know your all gonna call me stupid, but believe it or not, one can read and take stuff in steps. After practicing power on stalls, I put my cessna into an incepent phase of the spin, and paniced. I decided that I would read as much as i could, and then go practice. I probably learned more than most instructors (talking the 18-23 year old ones) that have just done the training for the CFI and no more. After a few incepent recoveries, I moved on to 2 turn and 3 turn spins. All done at 6,000 AGL, and never had that much fun in my life.

Are you alive?

Then you ain't that stupid....

But....

The real advantage with going with someone qualified in spins is the just-in-case principle.

Just in case you...
...Couldn't tell which way the airplane was spinning
...Didn't know how to preflight and look for the things that mattered for spin recovery (Cable slop, beel crank stops, etc)
...Panicked
..."forgot" the correct control inputs
... went inverted

Long-term survival in aviation requires checking and double-checking, and it's best to have someone along for the ride that has as much interest in survival but may know more about what to look for and what to do.

And there's the old saw about "He who is self taught has a fool for a teacher..."

 

[infotango]

Anybody know how many DA-20's have this "altitude-compensating fuel system"? Is that just the ones at the Air Force Academy at C-Springs, or what?

I've never flown one with the altitude compensating fuel system.
None of the planes on my FBO's flight line have it.

 

[jesse]

Anybody know how many DA-20's have this "altitude-compensating fuel system"? Is that just the ones at the Air Force Academy at C-Springs, or what?

I've never seen one with it.

 

[JLSeagull]

I did lots of spins in my youth. I did an unintentional solo student spin. After buying an antique plane, I had one spin lesson then taught myself spins. My logbook lacks any endorsements.

 

[poadeleted20]

I did lots of spins in my youth. I did an unintentional solo student spin. After buying an antique plane, I had one spin lesson then taught myself spins. My logbook lacks any endorsements.

Funny, but I already read the book.

 

[docmirror]

I gotta go with Ron and the others on this one. The ASEL practical standards providing spin avoidance, and accelerated stalls is prolly more on point for the average GA pilot. Now, any training, including spins over and above that is all goodness, but to get the cert I would say that spin avoidance is more important than recovery from a full spin.

Back in the good old days, like a prev poster I was flying pretty tight circles around a pod of whales off the coast. It was in an AA-5 and I was making left turns, but my GF wanted to see them too. So, I kicked in a bit more bank, and slowed a bit more. Yep, went through one of my own wakes, and had a nice upset. One second we were making a 60deg left bank fairly level, the next second we're about 80deg the other way and heading nose down. BAM! it was just that quick after hitting the wake. Of course, my flight profile didn't help at all.

My multitude of spin and recoery training kicked in and I had it sorted out pretty quick. I wonder if a pilot with no spin training would have gotten it right. But more than likely, they wouldn't have been in a tight left slowing turn, with a bit of extra low rudder. Really woke us up. Got some good photos though.

 

[MauleSkinner]

...I would say that spin avoidance is more important than recovery from a full spin.

Here's where I have issues, probably more with terminology than intent, though. There's a LOT between "spin avoidance" and "recovery from a full spin". Incipient spins, falling leaf, all kinds of "spin training" that can be given without actually spinning the airplane while still developing the student's understanding of the concept. Doesn't even have to be called "spin training". Just call 'em "advanced stalls".

Although a spin-certificated airplane would be an excellent choice

Fly safe!

David

 

[PittsDriver]

Here's where I have issues, probably more with terminology than intent, though.

I see pilots all the time talking about how they spun an airplane once and by their description it was nothing more than a wing falling off out of a stall into the start of a spiral. If you don't ever spin an airplane, you're less likely to really know the difference in the heat of the moment.

Anyone that's really gone through the training for aerobatic upset/recovery work understands that you're not so much training yourself in flying technique as you are desensitizing yourself. When something happens in an airplane that you weren't expecting, your first reaction is to go into brain freeze were your thinking becomes impaired. It's in that moment, when you need something spring loaded familiar to you as a response. Think about it this way, if you weren't ahead of the airplane enough mentally that this unexpected departure happened to you, what makes you think you're suddenly going to become much smarter in the heat of the moment? The answer is that you just won't.

If you go get the training from an experienced spin instructor in an aerobatic aircraft, you'll never regret it and it'll give you a confidence in the air you just won't have any other way. And, it really doesn't matter if the aircraft is very similar to what you usually fly. You're still training your mind to cope with the sensations and have a response ready to go.

 

[dmccormack]

I see pilots all the time talking about how they spun an airplane once and by their description it was nothing more than a wing falling off out of a stall into the start of a spiral. If you don't ever spin an airplane, you're less likely to really know the difference in the heat of the moment.

Anyone that's really gone through the training for aerobatic upset/recovery work understands that you're not so much training yourself in flying technique as you are desensitizing yourself. When something happens in an airplane that you weren't expecting, your first reaction is to go into brain freeze were your thinking becomes impaired. It's in that moment, when you need something spring loaded familiar to you as a response. Think about it this way, if you weren't ahead of the airplane enough mentally that this unexpected departure happened to you, what makes you think you're suddenly going to become much smarter in the heat of the moment? The answer is that you just won't.

If you go get the training from an experienced spin instructor in an aerobatic aircraft, you'll never regret it and it'll give you a confidence in the air you just won't have any other way. And, it really doesn't matter if the aircraft is very similar to what you usually fly. You're still training your mind to cope with the sensations and have a response ready to go.

Very well said.

The Military training model purposely trains until reactions are instinctive. When you're tired, scared, angry, bored -- whatever -- the training takes over and you do what you practiced.

An inadvertent spin is no time to recall what you read in an article once...

 

[nosehair]

"Spin Avoidance" training INCLUDES the act of entering into at least the first one turn to know how to recognize and react to any kind of upset beyond 90 degrees.

We practice, and demonstrate, full stalls to gain proficiency in STALL AVOIDANCE, don't we?

Are there any pilots here who believe that we can become proficient at stall avoidance by just talking about it?

You have to "feel" the airplane YAW and ROLL over towards inverted to train the body to react instincively to recover or prevent the continuation of the spin entry IMMEDIATELY.

This is how you recover/prevent the base-to-final stall/spin. It doesn'r happen because you feel it comming from your spin training just like you recognize the comming of a stall by doing them.

Anybody who believes in govt. figures, ie. spin training accidents, etc., in the face of pure logic and in the light of current govt. oversight capability might just re-appraise your information base.

Honestly, Sir, you are hiding behind a fear if you believe you don't need spin avoidance training to be a pilot in control of the airplane.

 

[dmccormack]

Honestly, Sir, you are hiding behind a fear if you believe you don't need spin avoidance training to be a pilot in control of the airplane.

To which "sir" are you referring your comments?

 

[Ghery]

Bet on that one. During my CFI training, I found two other CFIs I flew with who would not let me do a full break stall. I was doing a power-on, turning stall and dang near scared the crap out of one. It became rather benign to me.

Good grief. I did more full break stalls than I want to think about when learning to fly. And the DPE wanted one on my PP check ride. No biggie. A 172 recovers so fast when you release back pressure on the yoke that why worry? I hate to say it, but the first power-on, turning stall I did was on the check ride. We'd never practiced one, and she asked for one without specifying direction. Seeing as that 172 had a tendency to drop the right wing I turned left, let the wing drop to level in the stall and caught it with the rudder as I recovered. Really a non-event. Those CFIs weren't properly trained.

 

[dmccormack]

Good grief. I did more full break stalls than I want to think about when learning to fly. And the DPE wanted one on my PP check ride. No biggie. A 172 recovers so fast when you release back pressure on the yoke that why worry? I hate to say it, but the first power-on, turning stall I did was on the check ride. We'd never practiced one, and she asked for one without specifying direction. Seeing as that 172 had a tendency to drop the right wing I turned left, let the wing drop to level in the stall and caught it with the rudder as I recovered. Really a non-event. Those CFIs weren't properly trained.

Was the turn fully coordinated? If the wing dropped when stalling the airplane was probably out of rig.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Was the turn fully coordinated? If the wing dropped when stalling the airplane was probably out of rig.

He probably did the power-on stall with the ball in the center, in which case it's normal for an airplane to drop the right wing...much like engine-out operations in a twin, a slight bank and the ball about 1/3 out of the "cage" to the right will result in zero sideslip with a straight ahead break.

Fly safe!

David

 

[bbchien]

Anybody know if DA-20's are spin-approved?

Yes, it is. Just can't do any IFR work in it (unless you're happy with ZERO IMC).

 

[Ghery]

He probably did the power-on stall with the ball in the center, in which case it's normal for an airplane to drop the right wing...much like engine-out operations in a twin, a slight bank and the ball about 1/3 out of the "cage" to the right will result in zero sideslip with a straight ahead break.

Fly safe!

David

Probably did. That was seven years ago. In any case, I used the tendancy to my advantage as I was given the choice of direction to turn.

 

[jesse]

Yes, it is. Just can't do any IFR work in it (unless you're happy with ZERO IMC).

Here is a video I made awhile ago when I did a couple spins in the DA-20. I never could get it to really stay in a spin or progress much. You'll notice that I come out right away and that is because it would start to spiral on me. Too clean to keep it pointed down for long when that happens.It might have been better with another person in the plane. I'm not sure. It rolls in easy though.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

I'm still singing the same song I've been singing about spins for a few years:

• Spin training with a qualified pilot is very valuable. It's quite eye opening to see how fast an airplane can spin under the bottom from a skidding turn, and how many feet it takes to recover, and how easily you can recover if you know exactly what to do. It reinforces spin avoidance.
• Spin training has no place in private pilot instruction as the vast majority of CFI's have practically no experience with spins, and they sure as hell have no practical experience with spins. Two turns in a C150 doesn't cut it.
• If you want good spin training go to an experienced aerobatic pilot with an appropriate airplane. The chances are good that your CFI doesn't have more than a superficial knowledge in this area.

Even private pilots are probably worth saving from spin accidents. If their CFI/flight school doesn't have what it takes, a miniscule amount of extra currucular time, money and initiative will take care of that at another place with another CFI.

 

[poadeleted20]

Yes, it is. Just can't do any IFR work in it (unless you're happy with ZERO IMC).

Well, we were very happy with a flight line full of C-150's for years, and they were pretty much the same on those points.

 

[shippjean]

The best way to do spin training is with an aerobatic instructor. You get a real understanding of energy management...and you get the easy way to stop a spin!

~Jeannie

 

[docmirror]

Let me restate my position again, because I really like spin training. I don't think it should be a requirement for the PTS, but it is good training to have, and may save lives. However, as Ron said, the change in the requirement was due to the number of spin training accidents related to prep for the PTS.

So, while I think spin avoidance, or some kind of upset recovery is a valid PTS standard, I would like to get spin training outside the PTS. Agree that a good acro pilot is the best option for all the unusual attitude training.

 

[gprellwitz]

as noted above, 172's have significant load limits for spinning.

In a 172R, max T/O weight is 2100 lbs in utility category. So with me and a 170lb instructor we wouldn't be in the utility range until we only had 5 gals aboard. And my instructor weighed more than 170 lbs! This is why I've never done spin training, though I'd like to. I think that the 172S gives about 80 pounds more useful load in at least one of the planes I have access to, but that's still a little close to the W&B edge for me to feel real comfortable.

Anybody know if DA-20's are spin-approved?

Edit: already answered.

 

[gismo]

Here is a video I made awhile ago when I did a couple spins in the DA-20. I never could get it to really stay in a spin or progress much. You'll notice that I come out right away and that is because it would start to spiral on me. Too clean to keep it pointed down for long when that happens.It might have been better with another person in the plane. I'm not sure. It rolls in easy though.

I doubt that the clean shape has anything to do with it. My Porterfield which is nowhere near as clean as a DA-20 is also very reluctant to spin when flown solo from the front. About the only way I can keep it in a spin is to spin to the left and leave a fair amount of power on and use right aileron, otherwise it will covert to a spiral after a turn or so. If I fly from the rear seat I still have to work at getting into a spin but once spinning it will stay that way if the pro spin controls are held.

 

[jesse]

I doubt that the clean shape has anything to do with it.

I agree, I meant that the clean properties of the airplane make it ever important to return to level flight if it starts to spiral as it builds scary amounts of airspeed in little time nose down.

 

[AuntPeggy]

Are you kidding? One of the reasons it took so long to get my PPL was getting sick on every flight where turns or stalls were involved. Thank the heavens for the electronic Relief Band.

Someday, I'll try it with a hurl bag at the ready.

 

[nosehair]

Are you kidding? One of the reasons it took so long to get my PPL was getting sick on every flight where turns or stalls were involved.

Bingo! Here's the real reason spins were eliminated from PP training. Everyone "quotes" that the feds gave it up because of 'accident statistics'.

It was eliminated along about the same time that Cessna put the nose whell on it's Cessna 140, and called it a 150.

Back in the 50's we thought that everyone would be in Flying Cars like the Jetsons by the year 2000.

Life magazine showed full page pictures (artists conception) of a view of the new 150 with little kid back seats and Mom and Dad up front in their Sunday Best going on the Family Sunday Drive in the Air.

Congress was influenced with 'statistics' proving the spin requirement was no longer needed.

And the economy needed this boost in public flying.

It's not too late to see the need, and change.

 

[dmccormack]

Congress was influenced with 'statistics' proving the spin requirement was no longer needed.

And the economy needed this boost in public flying.

It's not too late to see the need, and change.

A student asked me recently -- "Is there anytime doing the kind of flying I'll be doing when I would stall the airplane?"

After a (slightly facetious) "Yeah, hopefully every time you land..." I said, "While it's true some of these maneuvers you won't probably encounter again until your next BFR or practical, you need to know how the airplanes feels at the various edges of its flight envelope, and then at some point understand what's happening to lift, to the wing's angle of attack, to the control surface aerodynamic loading."

"You may not be able to see the gauges -- remember landing at night with no flashlight and the panel lights flickering? -- or maybe a bug flew into the pitot-tube -- whatever -- but learning stalls and steep turns and turns about a point isn't about learning a trade -- it's more like a Liberal Arts education -- you learn to reason, write, read, comprehend -- to think."

On the very next steep turn series my clipboard happened to slip in front of the panel.

"Welcome, class, to Philosophy 101..."

 

[PittsDriver]

I'm not an MD but I know personally and anecdotally that motion sickness is a physiological response to a mental problem. The real issue is simply that you are experiencing unusual sensations that you let yourself hyperfocus upon. The cure is to just fly enough to get accustomed to the sensations. A band aid is to do something that occupies your thoughts more than the sensations - like shocking your wrist with a relief band, driving the boat, flying the plane toward a fixed point on the horizon, etc. My personal experience with the relief band was that it worked great for the first time I used it and less well every time afterward. My theory is that I became accustom to getting my wrist zapped and it didn't distract me from the queeze.

Keep your eyes outside the plane, your mind focused on what you're doing, and just keep flying and it'll go away. You just have to have the will to work through the issue and not give in to the "this is not for me" thinking.

 

[citationxjl]

Endorsement with full spin training. Also a aerobatic course with all the manuevers a super decathalon was capable of doing.
Great experience!! I learned a ton!! I recommended it to every one of my students.

 

[Bill]

Here's a poll on spin training.

Please share your thoughts on your experience, or why you haven't yet!

Between earning my PPL and starting IR, I treated myself to an intro arco course in a Citabria. Spins, aileron rolls, barrel rolls, loops, snap rolls, emmelman (sp?), split-S, hammerhead, etc. Fun stuff, good training.

 

[Bill]

The FAA has statistics to support their assertion that spin avoidance training is far more important than spin recovery training because most spins occur at altitudes too low to recover even if you know how and do it right. Ain't sayin' they're right or wrong, just sayin' what they believe, which goes to why the regs say what they do.

Although by actually doing a spin or two you REALLY learn why avoidance is so important. Spin at traffic pattern alt and kiss it gooodbye.

 

[jesse]

Spin at traffic pattern alt and kiss it gooodbye.

Depends on the phase of the pattern. A spin on downwind in something like a C150 should be pretty recoverable although it will scare the **** out of you. A spin on base to final? Good luck.

As long as you recognize the spin as it starts to occur you can generally stop / recover with very little altitude loss. This is the important skill to learn and I'm not convinced that most instructors get students anywhere near an actual spin.

 

[cwyckham]

Here is a video I made awhile ago when I did a couple spins in the DA-20. I never could get it to really stay in a spin or progress much. You'll notice that I come out right away and that is because it would start to spiral on me. Too clean to keep it pointed down for long when that happens.It might have been better with another person in the plane. I'm not sure. It rolls in easy though.

Last time I spun was with a CFI in a DA20-A1. With the two of us it spun great. I've spun a C152 and a couple different kinds of glider, and the DA20 had a really nice snappy entry, throwing me around a bit. Tons of fun.

 

[cwyckham]

I've had an unintentional spin while solo in a glider and I certainly credit recent training (the day before in a similar aircraft) to a fast, automatic recovery. I didn't even think about it. I also lost very little altitude which didn't really matter at 3000' agl, but was nice to know. I had a very fast break over the top and felt inverted (though I might just have been very nose down) but only got around about a quarter to a half turn before I had her recovered and was pulling out of a shallow dive and back into my thermal.

Gliders tend to spin fairly often while thermalling compared to powered aircraft, so spin training's pretty typical. It's also a reason I don't really like thermalling with other people I don't know. My instructor has watched a glider spin into the glider below him. One was able to land, the other parachuted to safety.