Spin Training...busted bravo

[jimhorner]

A) With all of the technology we have now, there's zero reason that you should be navigating near Class B or other controlled-entry airspace using nothing but a compass. If you're just out screwing around in the middle of nowhere, fine, enjoy the simple flying of no screens. Navigating busy airspace? That's just being foolish.

Not necessarily. I sometimes rent an open cockpit Great Lakes biplane in Palo Alto, near/under San Francisco's class B and very near San Jose's class C. There's very little extra room in the cockpit, and I rarely bring along an iphone or ipad. Hate to lose one of those while inverted. No fancy tech in the panel either. I don't think that it's "foolish" to be flying without the tech. Just requires some extra care. And I doubt if I could even tell you where the compass is in that plane. I'm sure it has one, but I've never looked at it. Eyes outside.

What I can say, however, is that I know the area and know the airspace boundry landmarks, and I re-familarize myself about those prior to each flight when I don't have the magenta line devices with me. Sounds like the CFI and the OP might should have done that as well prior to their flight.


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[Palmpilot]

I still don't have the new class B boundaries around PAO completely memorized.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Why all the nitpicks? This is the "Lessons Learned" forum after all. The dude transgressed, he admitted it and was sharing it so others may learn. He certainly wasn't the first to do something like this and definitely won't be the last...

Why should WE be the only ones to learn from this? Shouldn’t “the dude” be able to learn as well? The nitpicks are simply the things others are trying to help make sure he learned so it’s more likely to be HIS last time, because quite honestly, I’m not sure from the OP what lessons were learned.

 

[Spin training guy]

As a CFI you can’t allow yourself this instruction distraction. If you do you end up with a near mid air, an ATC altitude/heading bust or an airspace violation……. Safety is job 1.

The student and the CFI are a team. The fact they both missed what was occurring was a huge failure of CRM.

Yeah, I’m sure that CFI felt awful about it afterwards, but I certainly felt responsible as well. The CRM point you made is a good one, this was definitely one of those situations where the lesser experienced pilot was just following the instructions of the more experienced pilot.

And thats not a good thing, 2 pilots regardless of experience should always be a team. I know of more than a few instances with much worse outcomes than this where one of the causes was a FO being too subservient to a Captain.

A failure of CRM indeed. I will say that after a minute or so of being within the edge of the bravo, I was the one who noticed our location seemed off and we got out before we got in too deep, where things could’ve gotten more serious.

I don’t think anyone would argue that avoiding that situation altogether would’ve been ideal though.

As someone who will he instructing myself in the future this was certainly one of the more powerful lessons I’ve had In many ways. Never let your guard down, even if you feel like you’re with someone who you can trust. And always prepare and fly in a way you can take full responsibility for and be proud of.

 

[idahoflier]

Why should WE be the only ones to learn from this? Shouldn’t “the dude” be able to learn as well? The nitpicks are simply the things others are trying to help make sure he learned so it’s more likely to be HIS last time, because quite honestly, I’m not sure from the OP what lessons were learned.

Yeah, you're right, WE can learn a lot from the banter about what a POS his CFI is and how he should have never had gotten himself in the position he was in...

 

[idahoflier]

Yeah, I’m sure that CFI felt awful about it afterwards, but I certainly felt responsible as well.

So do you feel this incident was the CFI's fault???

 

[Spin training guy]

Why should WE be the only ones to learn from this? Shouldn’t “the dude” be able to learn as well? The nitpicks are simply the things others are trying to help make sure he learned so it’s more likely to be HIS last time, because quite honestly, I’m not sure from the OP what lessons were learned.

Well to start there has been good advice here, and it’s been good to hear others accounts on the subject. I’m by no means the most experienced pilot in here. But I’ve actually posted quite a few lessons I’ve learned from this experience so Im not sure what you’re getting at. This was a classic case of a bunch of errors added up and led to a “situation”. To be clear I obviously didn’t post here because I felt like I was right in this situation.

I’ve learned first hand how risk factors such as those in the PAVE acronym we’ve all learned have an additive effect. Sure we all know this from the books but to have it happen to you in unfortunate circumstances is different altogether.

As the pilot, I was perhaps stressed and distracted by the upcoming training, with an unfamiliar CFI.

The Aircraft was different than my usual aircraft (and likely that of the CFIs, our normal aircraft aren’t utility rated) with different avionics. Some of this equipment was faulty which further compounded my being used to different equipment and procedure.

The environment can be linked to heading to a different spot than usual to perform this training. Cant be doing spins plummeting into the center of the usual and busy practice area. So right off the bat this flight didn’t begin with a flight to one of the usual visual landmarks we use to get to the normal practice areas. We intended to go a different direction, but obviously not THAT far off.

External Pressures? Well big check ride coming up, need to get the endorsement taken care of. Not sure how its going to go (am I about to get sick lol?) but I know this needs to be done, and its also with this instructor I don’t know. He seemed confident in what we were doing that day, as he was the main spin training guy at the school, so who was I to question? That was my initial line of thinking until I realized the heading he had me one was a problem..

And let me be clear I haven’t been trying to make excuses for this event. So I don’t know why you think I’m ignorant to what’s happened and that I haven’t learned my lesson or something. I do appreciate everyones input. But bottom line is I made a booboo.

I’d rather everyone hear this from me and remember that dumb “Spin training guy” next time they are in any sort of similar unfamiliar situation and just take that extra second to mitigate. I know it was a CRM fail and that we “got lucky” and should’ve been more careful. If I thought I was right in this whole affair I wouldn’t have shared my story in the first place.

I hope that make sense! Not trying to be argumentative or to preach, but I thought a post like mine was the whole point of this forum. My idea was just to share the story and for others to learn from my mistake, so they don’t get that dreaded number to call. People get numbers to call all the time unfortunately, maybe not the people in this thread. But no one has had a number to call, until that have if you know what I mean lol. Nobody makes mistakes like these on purpose! Be careful and safe flying!

 

[Spin training guy]

So do you feel this incident was the CFI's fault???

No lol. I meant I think we both felt like it was “our fault” afterwards. Either one of us could’ve done something sooner to avoid this! He may have more experience but I certainly have enough to have known better on that day.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Well to start there has been good advice here, and it’s been good to hear others accounts on the subject. I’m by no means the most experienced pilot in here. But I’ve actually posted quite a few lessons I’ve learned from this experience so Im not sure what you’re getting at. This was a classic case of a bunch of errors added up and led to a “situation”. To be clear I obviously didn’t post here because I felt like I was right in this situation.

I’ve learned first hand how risk factors such as those in the PAVE acronym we’ve all learned have an additive effect. Sure we all know this from the books but to have it happen to you in unfortunate circumstances is different altogether.

As the pilot, I was perhaps stressed and distracted by the upcoming training, with an unfamiliar CFI.

The Aircraft was different than my usual aircraft (and likely that of the CFIs, our normal aircraft aren’t utility rated) with different avionics. Some of this equipment was faulty which further compounded my being used to different equipment and procedure.

The environment can be linked to heading to a different spot than usual to perform this training. Cant be doing spins plummeting into the center of the usual and busy practice area. So right off the bat this flight didn’t begin with a flight to one of the usual visual landmarks we use to get to the normal practice areas. We intended to go a different direction, but obviously not THAT far off.

External Pressures? Well big check ride coming up, need to get the endorsement taken care of. Not sure how its going to go (am I about to get sick lol?) but I know this needs to be done, and its also with this instructor I don’t know. He seemed confident in what we were doing that day, as he was the main spin training guy at the school, so who was I to question? That was my initial line of thinking until I realized the heading he had me one was a problem..

And let me be clear I haven’t been trying to make excuses for this event. So I don’t know why you think I’m ignorant to what’s happened and that I haven’t learned my lesson or something. I do appreciate everyones input. But bottom line is I made a booboo.

I’d rather everyone hear this from me and remember that dumb “Spin training guy” next time they are in any sort of similar unfamiliar situation and just take that extra second to mitigate. I know it was a CRM fail and that we “got lucky” and should’ve been more careful. If I thought I was right in this whole affair I wouldn’t have shared my story in the first place.

I hope that make sense! Not trying to be argumentative or to preach, but I thought a post like mine was the whole point of this forum. My idea was just to share the story and for others to learn from my mistake, so they don’t get that dreaded number to call. People get numbers to call all the time unfortunately, maybe not the people in this thread. But no one has had a number to call, until that have if you know what I mean lol. Nobody makes mistakes like these on purpose! Be careful and safe flying!

Ok, so you used the PAVE acronym to establish some errors, and you’re going to think about those things differently. But what I’m getting at is, what specific action(s) are you going to take to prevent this exact thing from happening in the future? Seems like there should be something in a checklist about flight instruments. How could you change the focus of that checklist to prevent this in the future? What habits can you develop in the G1000-equipped airplane that will help?

you could do like some guys I used to fly with who wrote “altimeters set” into the checklist at least three times because they regularly missed it, but continue to miss it because they were just crappy checklist users.

Learning is defined by a change in behavior, not just a change in thought.

 

[Spin training guy]

Ok, so you used the PAVE acronym to establish some errors, and you’re going to think about those things differently. But what I’m getting at is, what specific action(s) are you going to take to prevent this exact thing from happening in the future? Seems like there should be something in a checklist about flight instruments. How could you change the focus of that checklist to prevent this in the future?

Learning is defined by a change in behavior, not just a change in thought.

Oh theres definitely been changes in procedure for me since this. Obviously don’t want a repeat so how could looking at those factors and being self aware not inspire change?

This was a few months ago, so since this event I have certainly made procedural changes to my preflight checks. Big one I suppose in regards to what you said with instruments, is even in my usual aircraft, always checking the mag compass to my HSI, but making sure not only do the readings match, but do they make sense?

As far as airspace boundaries, I fly in a busy area so its pretty important to have procedures for getting around beyond just looking at the MFD/foreflight. those can be great tools but typically I have set visual checkpoints when departing in various directions to ensure I’m operating in Class E and not clipping anything unintentionally. Clearly on this day that didn’t happen for the reasons I stated. During preflight I double and triple check how I’m going to get around the area, even if I’m flying with another pilot who is more experienced.

Complacency is a dangerous thing, and to be complacent about something inherently means you don’t even realize it until its too late.

 

[Spin training guy]

Ok, so you used the PAVE acronym to establish some errors, and you’re going to think about those things differently. But what I’m getting at is, what specific action(s) are you going to take to prevent this exact thing from happening in the future? Seems like there should be something in a checklist about flight instruments. How could you change the focus of that checklist to prevent this in the future? What habits can you develop in the G1000-equipped airplane that will help?

you could do like some guys I used to fly with who wrote “altimeters set” into the checklist at least three times because they regularly missed it, but continue to miss it because they were just crappy checklist users.

Learning is defined by a change in behavior, not just a change in thought.

See these edits you’ve added. Love the redundancy idea as well!

 

[Clip4]

Yeah, I’m sure that CFI felt awful about it afterwards, but I certainly felt responsible as well. The CRM point you made is a good one, this was definitely one of those situations where the lesser experienced pilot was just following the instructions of the more experienced pilot.

And thats not a good thing, 2 pilots regardless of experience should always be a team. I know of more than a few instances with much worse outcomes than this where one of the causes was a FO being too subservient to a Captain.

A failure of CRM indeed. I will say that after a minute or so of being within the edge of the bravo, I was the one who noticed our location seemed off and we got out before we got in too deep, where things could’ve gotten more serious.

I don’t think anyone would argue that avoiding that situation altogether would’ve been ideal though.

As someone who will he instructing myself in the future this was certainly one of the more powerful lessons I’ve had In many ways. Never let your guard down, even if you feel like you’re with someone who you can trust. And always prepare and fly in a way you can take full responsibility for and be proud of.

Based on your posts you have some good attributes to be a CFI. Willingness to admit making a mistake and taking responsibility when you do.

 

[Spin training guy]

Based on your posts you have some good attributes to be a CFI. Willingness to admit making a mistake and taking responsibility when you do.

Thank you!
If you can’t learn from your mistakes, how will you ever improve? I’m grateful that this incident didn’t turn into anything worse by affecting the safety of others. And I’m grateful that I still get a chance to do what I love and hopefully I have a positive impact on those I work with in the future, and the people on here as well with this thread.

Had I read an airspace bust horror story about failing to notice faulty equipment in preflight perhaps that would’ve made me more cognizant that day lol.

If at least one person is extra careful about equipment and airspace next time they fly after seeing this thread, then I have done my job. Study your area, know aircraft and your plan. Nobody is perfect and there’s always room for everyone to improve.

Whats the old saying? A good pilot is always learning? Or is it your pilot certificate is just a license to learn. Eh same thing I think, right? Lol

 

[MauleSkinner]

Oh theres definitely been changes in procedure for me since this. Obviously don’t want a repeat so how could looking at those factors and being self aware not inspire change?

This was a few months ago, so since this event I have certainly made procedural changes to my preflight checks. Big one I suppose in regards to what you said with instruments, is even in my usual aircraft, always checking the mag compass to my HSI, but making sure not only do the readings match, but do they make sense?

As far as airspace boundaries, I fly in a busy area so its pretty important to have procedures for getting around beyond just looking at the MFD/foreflight. those can be great tools but typically I have set visual checkpoints when departing in various directions to ensure I’m operating in Class E and not clipping anything unintentionally. Clearly on this day that didn’t happen for the reasons I stated. During preflight I double and triple check how I’m going to get around the area, even if I’m flying with another pilot who is more experienced.

Complacency is a dangerous thing, and to be complacent about something inherently means you don’t even realize it until its too late.

Good stuff!

I don’t necessarily see complacency, either…it’s very easy to fall into the trap of developing procedures and habits that are specific to a particular set of equipment (aircraft, avionics package, etc.), but if we change up a G1000 Cessna 172 for a steam-gauge Cessna 172, we can’t make the adjustment because what we do is too specific. Having a mis-set DG take you into Class B in a 172 is really no different than going into the clouds in a Baron, contacting Center, and being asked just where in the h-e-double-hockey-sticks you think you’re going, only to find out that you didn’t set the DG. Trust me on that.

I learned early on that CIGAR TIPS will get just about any propeller-driven airplane ready for takeoff, and “ice, lights, runway alignment” (that last is a check of both the heading indicator and being on the correct runway, btw) will get me safely airborne.

Jets get a little more specific, but I’ve got a couple of turboprop checklists that I memorized as a pup that make wonderful flows to hit the major stuff in the jets until I get a chance to pull out the checklist. And the way you fly a pattern in a 172 still directly translates to smooth approach procedures in jets. But one of the toughest things to teach newbies in jets is that they’re still airplanes that use the same basic procedures, just with different numbers.

 

[AlphaMike]

One thing I would recommend. You said you were listening to approach but not talking with them. Our local “practice area “ is in close proximity to a large class B airport. I always like to get flight fallowing when I’m practicing maneuvers, especially steep turns, stalls, spins anything that puts me at a disadvantage for seeing other traffic. If you had been talking to approach they probably would have warned you before you crossed into the bravo. Several times (mostly back before ADSB) I’ve done clearing turns in both directions and didn’t see anything, go to start a steep turn to the left and hear. Bug smasher N1234 you have traffic at 9 o’clock. It’s always nice to have someone looking out for you.

 

[brcase]

Betcha you’ll never not compare yer compass to runway/taxiway headings again on the way out. That’s a lot of error, 30 degrees. Did you ever find out what the problem was? Was it a whiskey compass or one them vertical card ones?

That doesn't always work, just because a compass is accurate on one heading doesn't mean it can't be way off on another heading, in fact I have see quite a number of compasses that do exactly that, will be accurate on one or more headings and 30 degrees off or more on other headings.

Brian

 

[brcase]

It does happen, but should not happen.
The fact that it caused no loss of separation was luck, not anything the pilot did.

Inexcusable imo. Yes, it could happen to me, and it would still be inexcusable.
A local area instructor…???

yep, most of the time it is the other guy doing stupid pilot tricks, until it is your turn to do the stupid pilot trick.

I know of an event last year where an instructor and student practicing a steep spiral, after doing a series of Chandelles, got disoriented, (identified the wrong city visually, and weren't using the 3 different GPS displays because they were doing visual maneuvers in the practice area and visually staying clear) and descended right through the edge of Class C Airspace.

Their experience was almost identical to the OP's, other than they called ATC after landing rather than ATC asking them to call. Response from ATC was we didn't notice anything, don't do it again and have a nice day.

Heard the instructor tell his student "if you listened closely you might have heard them tearing up the paperwork, once they got a call saying we screwed up"


Brian

 

[MauleSkinner]

That doesn't always work, just because a compass is accurate on one heading doesn't mean it can't be way off on another heading, in fact I have see quite a number of compasses that do exactly that, will be accurate on one or more headings and 30 degrees off or more on other headings.

Brian

Does that technically make he aircraft unairworthy?

 

[brcase]

Does that technically make he aircraft unairworthy?

I could see where it could be unairworthy in a Pilots, Mechanics, or even FAA's opinion.
But unsure what regulation or standard would actually specify that it is unairworthy.

Brian

 

[sourdough44]

Just skimming through it gotta say, this is where PROMINENT ground reference points are a great idea. That could be ‘west shore of a lake’, ‘east of that mountain’, whatever. One can get spun up anyway, nav sources may tumble.

Just saying, brief then fly with reference to a ground nav point.

 

[Ed Haywood]

Why all the nitpicks? This is the "Lessons Learned" forum after all. The dude transgressed, he admitted it and was sharing it so others may learn. He certainly wasn't the first to do something like this and definitely won't be the last...

You missed the secondary purpose of PoA, which is to feel awesome about yourself by disparaging others.

 

[MauleSkinner]

You missed the secondary purpose of PoA, which is to feel awesome about yourself by disparaging others.

I’m kinda disappointed in how little you disparaged @idahoflier in this post. Most of us could do a lot better.

 

[Kempoca]

I am a low time PPL >100 hrs.
Took a friend flying / $100 BBQ leaving my Delta home airport and with two other close D towered airports in our path
My friend is a PPL student and I am showing off my flying skills / Ipad mini with FF... sudenly I see an airport on my right side.. Throttle in / climb / busted Delta / skimmed the rim at 3400 (3600)
Called tower (already outside their space) and told them I am the (moron) Skyhawk that overflow your space ...
Tower was chill (NO other planes in the pattern) / Have a Good Day

 

[Palmpilot]

I am a low time PPL >100 hrs.
Took a friend flying / $100 BBQ leaving my Delta home airport and with two other close D towered airports in our path
My friend is a PPL student and I am showing off my flying skills / Ipad mini with FF... sudenly I see an airport on my right side.. Throttle in / climb / busted Delta / skimmed the rim at 3400 (3600)
Called tower (already outside their space) and told them I am the (moron) Skyhawk that overflow your space ...
Tower was chill (NO other planes in the pattern) / Have a Good Day

I'm impressed. I've done a lot of confessing in the past thirty years, but only when I was already in contact with ATC.

 

[Doug Reid]

Does that technically make he aircraft unairworthy?

91.205 requires a magnetic compass for vfr flight. It does not say it has to be accurate. That is why we have compass cards and should at least look at the compass during preflight check to verify. I am surprised that the instructor did not confirm their position on FF earlier. With that being said, a lesson was learned, no one was hurt, all is well.

 

[MauleSkinner]

91.205 requires a magnetic compass for vfr flight. It does not say it has to be accurate. That is why we have compass cards and should at least look at the compass during preflight check to verify.

91.205 is in the middle of rather large volume of regs that include certification and maintenance requirements that may not be reflected in 91.205.

 

[Doug Reid]

My comment still stands...do you ever check your compass ?

 

[MauleSkinner]

My comment still stands...do you ever check your compass ?

Yes. And my comment still stands as well.

 

[steingar]

I'll bet cash money that the OP thought the CFI had it under control and the CFI thought the OP had it under control. It's happened to yours truly. If the controller wasn't that razzed about it I don't think the OP should be.

 

[Doug Reid]

I'll bet cash money that the OP thought the CFI had it under control and the CFI thought the OP had it under control. It's happened to yours truly. If the controller wasn't that razzed about it I don't think the OP should be.

Best response ever !

 

[Ed Haywood]

My comment still stands...do you ever check your compass ?

No, not really.

 

[Gary Ward]

So a few months ago I was going out with a CFI I hadn't flown with before, in an aircraft type I hadn't flown in quite some time (2 years?) to get my spin awareness endorsement. We both typically fly G1000 aircraft, however we were flying a different type in order to be in the "Utility Category" needed for the maneuver which was not G1000 equipped.

We hadn't realized it at the time, but there was a pretty nasty Magnetic Compass error in the aircraft which was about 30 to the west of actual heading (seemed real obvious on taxi back, but neither of us noticed it during preflight). Being we didn't have the huge MFD in our face we were sorta reliant on preplanned headings to steer us clear from the Bravo shelf above us as we climbed up. Not to mention I had some nerves heading into the training as I suppose some people have before spin training so my mind was a bit preoccupied and perhaps a bit too reliant on the CFIs situational awareness as we flew out and prepared.

On climb out the CFI told me to take a 360 heading up to 6500 (which would've steered us well clear of the shelf had we not actually been flying something more like 330 due to the compass issue), however I remember feeling out of place where we were. I eventually realized something was off with our location when I saw an airport in front of us from a perspective I have never seen (we were too far west and too high...in the bravo). I quickly asked "hey is that so-and-so airport over there" to which he said "No it Cant be!". Then I saw the instructor quickly checked his foreflight and had me turn to the east, and I don't think he had realized I noticed we busted at the time (although it was my query about our location that triggered it).

We did our spins, felt good about them actually and was heading back when he told me that we busted earlier in the flight. I should mention we were monitoring the approach control but weren't speaking to them for the flight so we were just a 1200 blip on their screens and ATC didn't bother to make contact with us. It was early morning, and we only just skirted the edge of the airspace for a minute or two...so no real traffic issues or danger at hand.

We got back to home base, landed, switched to ground and that when we got the "We have a number for you, approach wants to talk to you, advise when ready to copy". We nervously copied and taxied back then called approach back at the flight school.

They were actually super friendly and just said to be more careful and that they wanted to make sure we were aware of what happened. It was like we got a controller and we told them why we were calling, and they said "oh yeah....that was you, the manager just wanted to make sure you knew that you were in the airspace with out clearance and to be more vigilant in the future". We asked if there was anything else they needed from us (we were surprised that there wasn't more...trouble for us). But the controller said no and to have a nice day so we didn't protest, apologized and thanked them.

An ASRS report was filed afterwards on my end, and its been a couple of months since the event and nothing else has come of it. Wanted to share this with others to be especially careful when in unfamiliar aircraft and/or unusual/uncomfortable situations where you may be distracted. On a normal day I would have (and I assume the instructor as well) never ever flown in that direction at that altitude knowingly! Its the kind of thing you read about with human factors, but it was eye opening to have it happen first hand.

Also curious if others have had similar airspace violation incidents, where the controllers were generally forgiving and understanding. You hear the "copy a number" thing and you assume that your cert is toast, but that wasn't my experience given the circumstances. I'm sure had we blatantly flew through the middle of the airspace, or interfered with other traffic things would've been different.

I'm hoping between the seemingly positive phone call that didn't indicate any further action would be taken against us, the NASA report, and the time that has lapsed since the incident that nothing else will come of this other than a learning experience.

I got busted early on for violating bravo airspace. When I first learned to fly I was with my wife and we were flying across town to a delta airport to eat. I climbed to 3100' into the bravo by 100'. It was only for about 10 seconds until noticed.

When I was taxing at the delta airport they gave me a number to call. The controller was real nice on the phone, made sure I knew he noticed and it was not OK. But did say to keep his number not hesitant to call if I ever needed their help or questions. Never heard another word after that.

Pretty much ruined my dinner that night. Embarrassing. Haven't done that since.