Spin Endorsement & Gross Weight Issues

M

Mike21380

Filing Flight Plan
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Mike
Hi all- I have a little conundrum. I'm a very tall, 215 pound, CFI candidate that needs a spin endorsement. The school where I rent and take instruction doesn't offer spin instruction, so I've called a couple other flight schools. Both schools agreed that my size is no issue and I can complete the spins and earn the endorsement with no problem. However, when I download the weight and balance info and run the numbers we'd be overweight each time- which I find a bit alarming for spin training.

One school is offering to do the training with me in an 85 horse J3, the other in a 180 hp Citabria 8KCAB. In each case the instructor would need to be a pretty small person if we were to remain within legal weight limits with full fuel. For the J3 (with a full 12 gal) the instructor would need to be no heavier than 165 pounds (and I know the instructor they've put me with- I'm pretty sure he weighs more than 165 pounds). In the case of the Citabria its even worse- with full tanks (40 gal) I alone put the plane over the 1800 lb max gross. Flying with half-full tanks only buys me 120 pounds, and what are the odds that I'll have a 120 pound instructor?!?

Any suggestions? I'm bit alarmed that in both cases the schools said they'd accommodate my size. If I do it in the J3 we'd likely only be 55 pounds overweight, but we're talking spins here, not a gentle sunset joyride. And while 55 pounds doesn't sound like much, it does (I'm assuming?) make a difference when your max takeoff weight is only 1,220 pounds. Surely I can't be the only flight instructor candidate that's over 200 pounds?

Of course, I have my tailwheel endorsement and approximately 25 hours of tailwheel time, earned when pursing my private in a J3 and a Citabria. While I was lighter then, it was only by 10 pounds, so I'm guessing its a pretty safe bet that we were overweight then too- but I was too early in my instruction to realize this at the time...
 
What's a "spin endorsement"? I though you could just go out and do them. I did.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
What's a "spin endorsement"? I though you could just go out and do them. I did.
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Great question- yes, you can do spins without any endorsement at all. However, when you meet with the DPE for your CFI checkride he/she will need to see an endorsement from an instructor that you've completed formal training in spins in alignment with the requirements for the initial CFI. At least that's how it was explained to me! It's generally an hour of ground reviewing the aerodynamics of a spin and how to get in and out of one, followed by an hour in the air exploring them.
 
I second Patty's school, been there. Otherwise you're going to have to look for something like an Extra.
 
At the risk of POA wrath, don't sweat it. It's also pretty impossible to get acro training in a Pitts below gross unless the plane has two lightweights aboard. Can you guess the percentage of acro training flights that are under gross? ;)
 
Kenny Phillips said:
What's a "spin endorsement"? I though you could just go out and do them. I did.
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A requirement for a CFI candidate.

"a logbook endorsement from an authorized instructor indicating that the applicant is competent and possesses instructional proficiency in stall awareness, spin entry, spins, and spin recovery procedures after providing the applicant with flight training in those training areas in an airplane or glider, as appropriate, that is certificated for spins;" 61.183(i)(1)​
 
To Mike, the original poster,

This might come across as a bit of a rant, but don’t take it personally.

Nowhere in the regulations does it state that you MUST take off with full fuel. Only that you must take off with enough to fly the mission plus some reserve. Just because a tank holds a certain amount of fuel doesn’t mean that you have to fill it full every time.

Having said that, it sounds like the Cub won’t work at all. But on the Citabria, you should be able to take off with 12 gallons of gas and be under gross weight.
 
Mike21380 said:
In the case of the Citabria its even worse- with full tanks (40 gal) I alone put the plane over the 1800 lb max gross. Flying with half-full tanks only buys me 120 pounds, and what are the odds that I'll have a 120 pound instructor?!?
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Something seems off here. Every Citabria I've flown in has had an empty weight in the sub-1300lbs range which means with you and full fuel, you'd still have somewhere between 50 and 100 lbs or more to max gross, more if you take less fuel.
 
RoscoeT said:
At the risk of POA wrath, don't sweat it. It's also pretty impossible to get acro training in a Pitts below gross unless the plane has two lightweights aboard. Can you guess the percentage of acro training flights that are under gross? ;)
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...and at the risk of the same rant, I've been told (and agree), that most Cub/Champ/T-craft training flights are also never under gross for the same reasons, and fortunately none of these airplanes are all that particular about being slightly over weight. Although I'm not endorsing it, the old-hands all seem to say that a few pounds over weight is nothing to worry about for basic flying in the old rag-wings as long as the CG is within limits.
 
apr911 said:
Something seems off here. Every Citabria I've flown in has had an empty weight in the sub-1300lbs range which means with you and full fuel, you'd still have somewhere between 50 and 100 lbs or more to max gross, more if you take less fuel.
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Yeah- that's what I thought too. The empty weight for one of the Citabrias I was looking at, according to the W&B sheet posted, was just under 1350 pounds. I guess this one is a bit heavier.
 
kgruber said:
Try playing best case, isn't that what you want?
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You're right- just not sure how conscientious some of these places are about fuel- I might know that I only need x-amount of gas, but their line guy might not, and despite mentioning that I'm larger not sure if they'd remember and just fill up the tanks.

Its all a moot point now, found a place with a Citabria that will be within weight and balance limits with some room to spare.
 
Find an old beater C-150 and spin the thing. Easy.

At last count, there are four endorsements required now that didn't exist when I was going through all my training. Are we any safer now than back in those scary days of do-it-yourself learning to fly?
 
Mike21380 said:
You're right- just not sure how conscientious some of these places are about fuel- I might know that I only need x-amount of gas, but their line guy might not, and despite mentioning that I'm larger not sure if they'd remember and just fill up the tanks.

Its all a moot point now, found a place with a Citabria that will be within weight and balance limits with some room to spare.
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As a datapoint on fuel. I rent a Decathlon from West Valley Flying Club in Palo Alto whenever I want to do some light acro. That plane is never fueled automaticly by the line guys. First thing every flight is to call the fuel truck up and specify exactly how much fuel needs to be added. I never take off with full fuel in that plane.


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Neither my instructor nor I were terribly small people, but we did the spin training in our Citabria. We just kept to the minimum amount of fuel necessary to takeoff, climb to the practice area, do several spins, and come home. +30 minutes of course. 10-12 gallons is all you need to be legal in a plane burning 7-8 gph.

I've almost never topped my Citabria, and if I do I'm going solo.
 
Mike21380 said:
You're right- just not sure how conscientious some of these places are about fuel- I might know that I only need x-amount of gas, but their line guy might not, and despite mentioning that I'm larger not sure if they'd remember and just fill up the tanks.
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Glad yo found a place which works. I think you may still be stuck on the idea that filling to the top is some kind of standard. I've know places which only fill to the tabs (or some other mark short of full) regularly and some which reserve airplanes for spin training which only fill as needed.

Edit: just noticed posts with some specific examples.
 
A 152 with 15 gal. and a 205# CFI is within gross and CG limits.
 
One place I know of in Midwest offered spin training, they take off with min fuel. The CFI’s logic was, if I can’t recover and crash, I don’t want to burn
 
If you can’t recover from a spin and crash, you really won’t care if the plane burns.
 
It’s not the plane he was worried about
 
I do spin training with my students in a 172 M model with about 20 gallons of gas. I weigh 220Lbs. As long as the student is less then 185lbs we are good to go.

M
 
My instructor is 6'5", 245 and got his endorsement in a Citabria with an aerobatic instructor. It really shouldn't be an issue.
 
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