Spark plugs

Tom-D

Tom-D

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Tom-D
Let's talk prices of plugs over the life of an engine.

Champions we change about every 500 hours, Auburns seem the fail earlier.

a set of 12 REMS38E sell at spruce for $1135.00 and they last well over 2000 hours.

a set 12 of Champions REM38E are $332.00

a set of 12 Tempest 38E's are $281.00.

If you are having your engine rebuilt, what would you want put in it from day 1?
 
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I have good luck using the champions. Clean and re gap at annual.
 
Champion bought up Auburn at least eight years ago and shut them down. You must mean AC or Unison plugs?

I used Auburns until they became unavailable. They outlasted Champs by a wide margin. Auburns even had a 400-hour warranty on them. The Champion's internal resistor seems to be the weak spot, while Auburns monolithic resistor never gave any trouble. Unison/AC copied that idea but didn't get it right somehow and they didn't impress me at all.

Back in October we were touring parts of Indiana and Michigan and stopped in Auburn, IN, to visit the Auburn/Duesenberg museum there. I left a slimy trail off drool all over the place. What a bunch of beautiful cars. I shoulod post a pic or two.

Dan
 
Spark plugs always seemed to me to be a very big rip off. Made in vast quantities, how can they be so expensive compared say, to one for the lawn mower?!
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Spark plugs always seemed to me to be a very big rip off. Made in vast quantities, how can they be so expensive compared say, to one for the lawn mower?!
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Well, even though the lawn mower only uses one, there are several MILLION of those around. With only a couple of hundred thousand airplanes around, and a good chunk of those Turbines, there just isn't the economy of scale in the aviation market. Not to mention an aviation plug, with the required shielding and such, just isn't all that simple to manufacture.
 
I like my BG341 plugs. There are about five trillion of 'em, all new. Gapped and ready to go.

Seems to me that the Tempests are better than Champions, these days, especially the resistors and how they're constructed and bonded.
 
I buy Tempest when I buy them. Not even sure what's in my plane right now.
 
Tom-D said:
Let's talk prices of plugs over the life of an engine.

Champions we change about every 500 hours, Auburns seem the fail earlier.

a set of 12 REMS38E sell at spruce for $1135.00 and they last well over 2000 hours.

a set 12 of Champions REM38E are $332.00

a set of 12 Auburns 38E's are $281.00.

If you are having your engine rebuilt, what would you want put in it from day 1?
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The champion REM38E plugs

When I had my Cherokee, I'd clean and gap the plugs. Although I'm very careful, I did drop one once. I can't guarantee I won't drop one again.
 
I think for the money Tempest is the way to go. Champs have been known to have bad resistor out of the box.
 
After I had two premature failures of Champion massives with <200 hours (cleaned and gapped regularly) I switched to Tempest Fine Wires and am happy with them.
 
I'm okay with the Champion massive electrode plus. I will only use the fine wire Tempest plugs today, they don't seem to crack the center electrode ceramic cones as often on the PA46 engines.
 
our 3300 Lycoming 180 horse failed the out of annual turn up for a bad mag check.

three of the 8 Tempest failed, they were running and after removal, cleaning and gapping, and replacement they failed less than 300 hours on them.
 
If you have a problem with a Tempest plug, contact them. John Herman is the point man for the company. They have excellent support and will not blow you off like Champion. They are actively involved in quality control and WANT to hear about defects so they can be corrected. It's very rare to get customer service like this today!

Champion plugs (fine or massive) have a common failure mode, and that is the inherently unstable resistor. It is the cause of more problems than you can imagine. Ever have a fouled plug that tests fine on the bench tester? It's high resistance in the plug, that the magneto can't fire at lower rpm. As these plugs age, the resistance goes well over a million ohms and puts all your ignition components at risk. Burned distributor blocks, shorted harnesses, and roasted rotors are all caused by this phenomenon that is unique to Champion's design. Plus, their fine wire plugs are notorious for cracking the center electrode insulator and becoming a glow plug that causes pre-ignition, melts a hole in your piston, and trashes your engine. The higher performance engines are at the most risk of this, but even a C-85 Continental can benefit from trashing the Champions and switching to Tempest.
 
philiplane said:
If you have a problem with a Tempest plug, contact them. John Herman is the point man for the company. They have excellent support and will not blow you off like Champion. They are actively involved in quality control and WANT to hear about defects so they can be corrected. It's very rare to get customer service like this today!

Champion plugs (fine or massive) have a common failure mode, and that is the inherently unstable resistor. It is the cause of more problems than you can imagine. Ever have a fouled plug that tests fine on the bench tester? It's high resistance in the plug, that the magneto can't fire at lower rpm. As these plugs age, the resistance goes well over a million ohms and puts all your ignition components at risk. Burned distributor blocks, shorted harnesses, and roasted rotors are all caused by this phenomenon that is unique to Champion's design. Plus, their fine wire plugs are notorious for cracking the center electrode insulator and becoming a glow plug that causes pre-ignition, melts a hole in your piston, and trashes your engine. The higher performance engines are at the most risk of this, but even a C-85 Continental can benefit from trashing the Champions and switching to Tempest.
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I find that the corrosion protective coating (plating) does not protect as it should, the body rusts quickly and when the engine is not run frequently the tip will corrode until there is no gap and it simply shorts out.

So you remove them, try to clean with a plug cleaner and the fine grit will not remove the corrosion with out removing too much of the electrodes.

the last 3 were simply shorted internally.
 
Maybe I'm just oblivious to problems with Champion plugs, but I've cleaned hundreds/thousands? and only had a few fail testing. I can see how in a PA46 or other turbo'd/high compression engines they will have more problems with the higher pressures. Never really used tempest's. Fine wires make sense that the electrodes don't wear out as fast. Going with fine wire would make sense in some aircraft, but in a 172 or warrior or similar, I'd stick with the massive electrodes. Even in a C-U206G we ran massive's. I don't seeing the price being much different over the course of an engines life.
 
bgdriveway said:
Maybe I'm just oblivious to problems with Champion plugs, but I've cleaned hundreds/thousands? and only had a few fail testing.
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that's where I am, the champions will normally fire until the electrodes are too small to pass the size requirements of the center electrode.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Spark plugs always seemed to me to be a very big rip off. Made in vast quantities, how can they be so expensive compared say, to one for the lawn mower?!
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have a look at a typical sparkplug factory if you want cheap
 

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.....for turbo charged engines.......I've just switched to tempest massive....
 
Bite the bullet, get the tempest fine wire... I was buying the others because they were cheaper, but they failed a lot, cleaned but still failed,, fine wire no more problems, fine wire gets cheaper the longer you use them, reg plugs tend to cost more in the long run.
 
Tom-D said:
that's where I am, the champions will normally fire until the electrodes are too small to pass the size requirements of the center electrode.
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Until they don't. My plane came with Champion massives that ran great until they were simply worn too much according to their go/no-go gauge. I replaced them with more of the same, but this batch had 3 premature failures, including one that required replacement at an en-route fuel stop, before I removed all of them and went to Tempest. Their resistance values were all over the map, indicating something has changed in recent years at Champion, and they're not producing consistently good products any more. All the folks that claim they're always had good luck with Champions are believable IMO, but if you start looking closely at newer plugs I think you'll see that they are not as good as they used to be...

The Tempests all measure consistent resistance and just work.
 
Norman said:
Paint them before you install them. But rusty on the outside doesn't count. They just look bad.
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when the electrodes corrode I have concerns.
 
Mine haven't corroded. Suggest you contact Tempest and perhaps they'll take care of you?
 
I switched my Flybaby from very old Champion plugs to Tempest last year. Still happy.

My champion plugs worked quite well and were so old they didn't even have the apart number in their system. They finally called the oldest guy in their company and conferenced him in (he remembered them) and he was able to answer my questions. I was really pretty impressed with Champions support of plugs they probably made over fifty years ago.
 
I like the tempest plugs and have had some champion issues. I have tempest in the pawnee but in the travel air i cant quite get a socket on the tempest in some cylinders due to the engine installation. The depth of the hex flats is slightly different to champion.
 
How many mag issues have been misdiagnosed as to cause with crummy Champion plugs.....?
 
Me? I'd put in the Iridiums on a new rebuild, but then I don't try to do everything as cheap as possible today only to have it cost more tomorrow; that seems to be a common trait with airplane and yacht owners.
 
Henning said:
Me? I'd put in the Iridiums on a new rebuild,
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I agree, it is a little cheaper to go with Champion fine wire at overhaul and run 2000 hours and not have problems than trying to run massive and pay to have problems repaired.
 
Tom-D said:
I agree, it is a little cheaper to go with Champion fine wire at overhaul and run 2000 hours and not have problems than trying to run massive and pay to have problems repaired.
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Reliability is a pretty solid deciding factor.
 
Tom-D said:
And what good is that when they corrode so fast.?
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If you're talking about rust forming in the outside of a Tempest nickel plated plug due to weathering and tool marks, external corrosion is irrelevant to the plug's operation.

Corrosion in the plug well on the other hand is abnormal and not a product of the plug's design or manufacture. It's normally maintenance induced or a product of faulty seals on the harness terminals.

Corroded electrodes? That would be unusual with any plug. Especially a fine wire plug, which uses iridium wire for superior heat and corrosion resistance. It's one of the most durable materials for this environment, which is why it costs about $1000 per pound. That's why these plugs are so expensive.
 
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bgdriveway said:
Maybe I'm just oblivious to problems with Champion plugs, but I've cleaned hundreds/thousands? and only had a few fail testing. I can see how in a PA46 or other turbo'd/high compression engines they will have more problems with the higher pressures. Never really used tempest's. Fine wires make sense that the electrodes don't wear out as fast. Going with fine wire would make sense in some aircraft, but in a 172 or warrior or similar, I'd stick with the massive electrodes. Even in a C-U206G we ran massive's. I don't seeing the price being much different over the course of an engines life.
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Bench testers are virtually useless to determine how a plug will fire in an engine. They can put out nearly double the voltage as your magneto, so they will fire plugs that will foul in your engine under a variety of conditions.
 
Tempest UREM37BY with the "long nose" electrodes in my O-320.

No fouling, no corrosion, easier to service/adjust the gap if needed.
 
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