Southwest buying AirTran - didn't see THAT comin'!

Yes, I just heard that during the drive in to work and my jaw dropped. LUV has been itching to get into Atlanta for a while.

I really liked Airtran. I hope this merger doesn't turn them into cattle-call boarding. I had a sweet system worked out for Airtran.
 
I wonder what SWA will do with all those MD-80s that Airtran owns.
 
vontresc said:
I wonder what SWA will do with all those MD-80s that Airtran owns.
Click to expand...

They're Boeing 717s. From what I've read they're going to keep them, but paint the entire TRS fleet in the SWA livery. Which kind of sucks. I have a few friends who were recently hired by Air Tran; this should make life interesting for them.
 
Not a good thing for passengers. Airtran had ok service - now it's going to go down to SWA standards :(
 
It'll be interesting to see how the schedules pan out. As much as I hate riding the aerial cattle wagon, living so close to ATL makes it a lot more convenient to get to places when I *have* to fly commercial. Having access to Southwest's network will open a few more doors.
 
sba55 said:
Not a good thing for passengers. Airtran had ok service - now it's going to go down to SWA standards :(
Click to expand...

Yep.

No bag fees. No change fees. Sufficient frequency to give a reasonable likelihood of timely return upon changed plans.

That's a real step down.

AirTran is at its core a leisure-traveler carrier, and they've done a great job with that, but their focus is more on serving a lot of places, a little. Their policies reflect this.

For hard-core, gotta get there and (more importantly) gotta get back home travel, while I use other carriers (including AirTran, whose service is certainly on par with any other carrier), if it's mission-critical, SWA is most likely to complete the mission, and by far better-equipped to recover when irregular ops intervene.

There's a reason Southwest carries more passengers domestically than any other carrier, and that reason is that they do it better than anyone else.

--

Edit:

Southwest's "cattle-wagons" have better seat pitch than any other carrier's main cabin, except United's E+, which is very nice indeed. Their boarding system, as it has now developed, works better, is far less disruptive, than anyone else's. You can remain seated until the very moment you are called to board.
I still prefer to fly the Bonanza.
 
Last edited:
As a business traveler, I really like SWA. I don't mind the cattle call boarding and all the SWA planes I've riden on lately have enough more legroom than Delta, Continental, etc. that I really appreciate it. Also, I check in early and get early enough in the boarding that I can fequently get an exit row seat (more legroom) without having to be an ultra-platinum/titamium alloy frequent flyer.:wink2:

I don't know how this will affect AirTran with whom my experience is limited. But my limited experience is they're not very predictable later in the day. SWA is usually pretty good.

John
 
Southwest has become my airline of choice too, mostly because of the lack of change fees. I don't have any problem with the way they board either. It actually works out better for me as long as I remember to check in on line in a timely manner.
 
SCCutler said:
Yep.

No bag fees. No change fees. Sufficient frequency to give a reasonable likelihood of timely return upon changed plans.

That's a real step down.

AirTran is at its core a leisure-traveler carrier, and they've done a great job with that, but their focus is more on serving a lot of places, a little. Their policies reflect this.

For hard-core, gotta get there and (more importantly) gotta get back home travel, while I use other carriers (including AirTran, whose service is certainly on par with any other carrier), if it's mission-critical, SWA is most likely to complete the mission, and by far better-equipped to recover when irregular ops intervene.

There's a reason Southwest carries more passengers domestically than any other carrier, and that reason is that they do it better than anyone else.

--

Edit:

Southwest's "cattle-wagons" have better seat pitch than any other carrier's main cabin, except United's E+, which is very nice indeed. Their boarding system, as it has now developed, works better, is far less disruptive, than anyone else's. You can remain seated until the very moment you are called to board.
I still prefer to fly the Bonanza.
Click to expand...

Amen Brother Spike +1
 
As another business traveler, I also like SWA. The people are almost always friendly, service is good, their customer service people are great to work with (read: no change fees), and as an added bonus for me, they actually have some younger and attractive flight attendants! The seat pitch is generally better on SWA than on other airlines I've flown, with the exception of the row I sat in on my flight to Oakland last week - that was pretty tight, but that's the exception rather than the rule. With regards to the cattle call, I actually like that better since I can check in 24 hrs in advance and get the A-group. I actually have a better chance of getting the seat I want in this system than in the reserved seats on COA since I lost my elite status.

Overall, I didn't see this coming either, but I ultimately think it will be a good thing. Hopefully they will retain the XM radio in the seats, and maybe add it to planes in their existing fleet.
 
t0r0nad0 said:
As another business travelers, I also like SWA.
Click to expand...
Hm, odd. SWA doesn't offer anything to a business traveler that would be of value. Seat pitch is worse than UA E+, there's no first class on most (all?) flights so no free upgrades, no transatlantic or transpacific upgrades, no business class, no lie flat seats, no airline alliance to speak of...and it goes on.

And what's all this talk about "no fees". SWA has pretty drastic standby and change fees (I guess they don't call them fees, but that's what it is if you have to pay for the fare difference to a higher fare class if you want to standby) unless you spend a lot of money on fare classes that don't have those fees. As a business traveler, all it takes is 25,000 and often far less miles to achieve basic FF status on most airlines, which pretty much waives all the fees.

For a business traveler or a leisure traveler who takes more than a handful flights a year, SWA and JetBlue is terrible.
 
sba55 said:
Hm, odd. SWA doesn't offer anything to a business traveler that would be of value. Seat pitch is worse than UA E+, there's no first class on most (all?) flights so no free upgrades, no transatlantic or transpacific upgrades, no business class, no lie flat seats, no airline alliance to speak of...and it goes on.
Click to expand...
Many people don't travel or conduct business overseas so, in those cases, most of what you mentioned is irrelevant to them.

sba55 said:
And what's all this talk about "no fees". SWA has pretty drastic standby and change fees (I guess they don't call them fees, but that's what it is if you have to pay for the fare difference to a higher fare class if you want to standby) unless you spend a lot of money on fare classes that don't have those fees.
Click to expand...
I just changed both ends of a trip on SWA by one day and it cost me an extra $11 which was the difference in fare. If I had done that on Frontier, for example, I would have paid the difference in fare plus a $100 change fee. I have also found that it's much easier to redeem a reward flight on SWA. They have many more seats available for that purpose.
 
vontresc said:
I wonder what SWA will do with all those MD-80s that Airtran owns.
Click to expand...

SWA will no longer be a 737-only fleet:

Source: http://www.lowfaresfarther.com/the-deal/

With a more diversified fleet, provide Southwest Airlines with the flexibility to consider adding service to smaller cities and communities than it currently serves.
Click to expand...

Another interesting factoid is this will now make SWA an international carrier, with forays into Mexico and the Caribbean to start.
 
This is outstanding! Our first two cases in business school were Southwest and jetBlue, comparing and contrasting strategy, finance, and operations. What's interesting is that we determined that SWA would need to go to a split fleet to dynamically compete against jetBlue.

SWA, for expansion purposes, would be aided by a second, smaller type. jetBlue can "taste" a market for lower costs, and better align costs to markets as seat demand changes.

The 717 is an odd pick, given the fact that it is out of production. The average age of AAI's 717 fleet is still younger than the SWA entire fleet (8.3 vs. 10.5; weighted average); but there aren't any more 717's to acquire besides used types. AAI was already investigating replacing the 717. Rumors had it AAI was looking at both the CSeries and the E-jet family.

This will give SWA a nice slot in some larger (BOS) markets that SWA has been slow or reticent to play in.

Interesting deal for sure. SWA will now have... 400? ops per day in DL's backyard. SWA and jetBlue win with this deal (as do AAI shareholders) -- DL stands to lose the most, with AA coming in a close second.

Cheers,

-Andrew
 
Everskyward said:
Many people don't travel or conduct business overseas so, in those cases, most of what you mentioned is irrelevant to them.
Click to expand...
Well, no, its not irrelevant. It makes travel quite nice. Upgrade to first class = nice. Lounge access = nice (not like SWA has lounges anyways). Seat availability on 10+ partner airlines using miles = nice. NO standby or luggage fees at all = nice. Skipping the security line at SFO in the morning = nice, and a savings of 2 hours at 6am. Pre-book E+ and exit rows - very nice. It's not really a question, unless one flies very little. In which case SWA is better. But not for any business traveler.

Everskyward said:
I just changed both ends of a trip on SWA by one day and it cost me an extra $11 which was the difference in fare. If I had done that on Frontier, for example, I would have paid the difference in fare plus a $100 change fee. I have also found that it's much easier to redeem a reward flight on SWA. They have many more seats available for that purpose.
Click to expand...
That may be if you're not an elite (and low level is fine for that), but otherwise, SWA miles are pretty worthless. It's also quite rare to only spend $11 on a flight change since you have to pay the fare difference to a much more expensive fare class. Can be $100s...
 
sba55 said:
Well, no, its not irrelevant. It makes travel quite nice. Upgrade to first class = nice. Lounge access = nice (not like SWA has lounges anyways). Seat availability on 10+ partner airlines using miles = nice. NO standby or luggage fees at all = nice. Skipping the security line at SFO in the morning = nice, and a savings of 2 hours at 6am. Pre-book E+ and exit rows - very nice. It's not really a question, unless one flies very little. In which case SWA is better. But not for any business traveler.
Click to expand...
You need to travel quite a bit on long routes to get those kinds of perks, even on UAL which really would be my only option for a legacy airline, living in Denver. Speaking of that, I've flown on UAL a few times out of Denver and I've never seen a lounge. It's true they have first class but that's not such a big deal to me on a 2-4 hour flight which is about the max that I fly living in the middle of the country. I sit in just as small a space in the airplane I fly myself.

sba55 said:
It's also quite rare to only spend $11 on a flight change since you have to pay the fare difference to a much more expensive fare class. Can be $100s...
Click to expand...
I've changed flights a number of times on SWA and it's never been in the $100s, not that it couldn't be, but on other airlines it pretty much guaranteed to be in the $100s.
 
For the relatively modest proportion of business travelers who achieve PlatinumMegaHot-Dude status on carriers, life is good (I have friends locally who have this kind of status on AA, and it makes life good - for them). That is not the norm.

The great thing about Southwest is, their frequency of flights is such that I generally would never have use of a "lounge" anyway, since the time I might spend hanging out in an airport club is spent winging my way home at FL 360.

I hear where you are coming from, Felix- but you deal from a perspective which is meaningless to the vast majority of business travelers; for most of us, I prefer the flexibility and convenience that high-frequency point-to-point service gives, because that ultimately delivers the greatest luxury of all - more time with my family.
 
Well, I'm one of those people who make Premier Executive on United every year without even thinking about it. 3 trips to Europe this year, been to Taiwan and am looking at a trip to Singapore in December. Checked bag fees? I can check 3 free. Lounge access? On international trips without even being a member. E+ seating? Always, unless I get upgraded.

SWA has its advantages, but the last time I rode trans continental with them I had 2 stops (or was it 3?) with change of plane. Not doing that again.
 
Ghery said:
Well, I'm one of those people who make Premier Executive on United every year without even thinking about it. 3 trips to Europe this year, been to Taiwan and am looking at a trip to Singapore in December. Checked bag fees? I can check 3 free. Lounge access? On international trips without even being a member. E+ seating? Always, unless I get upgraded.

SWA has its advantages, but the last time I rode trans continental with them I had 2 stops (or was it 3?) with change of plane. Not doing that again.
Click to expand...
Ghery, I agree of course. As I've said a few times now, _if_ you are a business traveler, this is a no-brainer. If you don't fly much, SWA might make sense. AirTrain wasn't great for business people, but it was certainly better than SWA.

There aren't many people who fly a lot in this thread. Vast majority has no idea how useful FF programs are for enhancing and differentiating an airline....
 
I would argue that 3 trips to Europe, one to Taiwan and one to Singapore is not normal business travel for the vast majority of business poeple. That is the very right hand edge of the bell curve.
 
sba55 said:
Ghery, I agree of course. As I've said a few times now, _if_ you are a business traveler, this is a no-brainer. If you don't fly much, SWA might make sense. AirTrain wasn't great for business people, but it was certainly better than SWA.

There aren't many people who fly a lot in this thread. Vast majority has no idea how useful FF programs are for enhancing and differentiating an airline....
Click to expand...

I have changed my domestic travel strategy since being promoted earlier this year.

If the direct is served by AA, or international, I'm on AA.

If I can non-stop it domestically on jetBlue, I will pick that over connecting on AA.

If jetBlue and AA serve the same cities, with similar times, I pick jetBlue. I do just fine racking up miles, and a direct in Y on jetBlue is still preferential to F on AA.

Cheers,

-Andrew

EDIT: The main reason for the change is time. I do more up-and-back trips (overnights/single days) and I value total time more than time-enroute. My work schedule has exploded and, frankly, my downtime is nil when I add-in business school. I love the lounge, it is a great place to relax for a few minutes... but I'd prefer to spend that time relaxing with my wife, at home, rather than alone in an Admirals Club.
 
Last edited:
jtheune said:
I would argue that 3 trips to Europe, one to Taiwan and one to Singapore is not normal business travel for the vast majority of business poeple. That is the very right hand edge of the bell curve.
Click to expand...
Yep that is a lite travel year for all of the business people I deal with.

3 trips to Aisia, 2-3 trips to Europe and a different state 10 months out of the year is more typical. Thank you FSM for FF programs!!!
 
sba55 said:
There aren't many people who fly a lot in this thread. Vast majority has no idea how useful FF programs are for enhancing and differentiating an airline....
Click to expand...

And to that vast majority, it is therefore irrelevant.

I like Southwest, and fly them whenever I have cause to. Although it's pretty rare for me to have cause to.

Edit: I also fly myself anywhere I can. I have yet to find an airline that I like better than mine.
 
Last edited:
Ted DuPuis said:
And to that vast majority, it is therefore irrelevant.

I like Southwest, and fly them whenever I have cause to. Although it's pretty rare for me to have cause to.

Edit: I also fly myself anywhere I can. I have yet to find an airline that I like better than mine.
Click to expand...

I would suggest you try SQ in F to SIN. Miiiiiight change your opinion a bit.

Cheers,

-Andrew
 
I admit, that looks pretty awesome.

Since I have no cause to fly to Singapore, though, that is probably also useless to me. :)
 
there must be dogs in singapore that need rescued ted.
 
I think the fare to fly Singapore in F to Singapore is about the cost of a nice used Cessna.
 
astanley said:
I have changed my domestic travel strategy since being promoted earlier this year.

If the direct is served by AA, or international, I'm on AA.

If I can non-stop it domestically on jetBlue, I will pick that over connecting on AA.

If jetBlue and AA serve the same cities, with similar times, I pick jetBlue. I do just fine racking up miles, and a direct in Y on jetBlue is still preferential to F on AA.

Cheers,

-Andrew
Click to expand...

I'm pretty much of the same mind - just substitute USeless Air for AA and SWA for jetBlue.

Did enjoy the SWA direct PHL to AUS, but that has come and gone, so it's back to PHL --> IAH and drive.
The other issue is overhead space. With the airlines charging for checked bags, it is amazing what people will bring on board and try to stuff in the overhead. Being an "elite" does have the advantage of boarding early and actually having room in the overhead.

Gary
 
Gary said:
...
The other issue is overhead space. With the airlines charging for checked bags, it is amazing what people will bring on board and try to stuff in the overhead. Being an "elite" does have the advantage of boarding early and actually having room in the overhead.

Gary
Click to expand...

One of the benefits of SWA - no checked bag fees, so no urge to carry on your life in rolling trunks... and I find their baggage service is dramatically faster than AA's.
 
I luv SWA. I've been flying them for years, ever since they landed in BWI (and destroyed MetroJet - remember them? USAir's discount attempt).

They understand business. It's blocking and tackling, as Vince Lombardi would say. Most companies seem to forget that.

I have no problem flying them.
 
I'm another that has no problems with SWA. I fly on business enough to appreciate their service compared to other airlines, but not enough to get the perqs of frequent flyers on those other airlines.

SWA is very easy to work with and they remember that I have a choice in airlines- and act like they actually want my business.
 
ScottM said:
Yep that is a lite travel year for all of the business people I deal with.

3 trips to Aisia, 2-3 trips to Europe and a different state 10 months out of the year is more typical. Thank you FSM for FF programs!!!
Click to expand...

And I use you as an example when friends comment on how much I travel. You make me look like a stay at home. Better you than me. :)
 
vontresc said:
I wonder what SWA will do with all those MD-80s that Airtran owns.
Click to expand...

717's not md-80's

I have been flying Airtran since they were ValuJet. Love SWA as well. Both great airlines I hope and think they will do well.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top