Southwest Airlines flight lands at wrong airport

TMetzinger said:
Yes... I never LOSE money with southwest. I either make my trip and get decent value, or I apply the money to another flight.
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Yep, a ferry flight just got delayed, but the return on SWA has been banked and will use it whenever we do make the flight. I really like SWA. I hope this works out okay for the pilots in error.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Pure speculation on my part, but looking at the Flight Aware track, I'm guessing they saw airport lights and called the field in sight, controller then cleared them for the visual and told them to contact tower. They did and being a sleepy airport with no other traffic, tower controller immediately cleared them to land without looking.

Thinking the airport lights they first saw were the intended airport, they became fixated and lined up and landed.

I can see it happening. It's that complacency thing that kicks our butts.
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Thanks for that. The way you spelled that out (even if speculation) makes a lot of sense.
 
Everskyward said:
I think what you posted is going to be pretty close to what they find out. As far as the tower clearing them to land, I don't think the tower actually needs to see the airplane if there is no other traffic. I know I have been cleared to land from a long ways out (10-20 miles) in the middle of the night. I don't know what the ATC regs are about this.
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JO7110.65U
3−10−7. LANDING CLEARANCE WITHOUT
VISUAL OBSERVATION
When an arriving aircraft reports at a position where
he/she should be seen but has not been visually
observed, advise the aircraft as a part of the landing
clearance that it is not in sight and restate the landing
runway.
PHRASEOLOGY−
NOT IN SIGHT, RUNWAY (number) CLEARED TO
LAND.
NOTE−
Aircraft observance on the CTRD satisfies the visually
observed requirement.
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Man the most impressive part of that video was the sharp turn the plane took to line up. Man that turning radius was tight!
 
As pilots, we're all sympathetic and can see how this can happen, but they will have a real uphill battle. In addition to violating several company policies, the regulators will look at several factors for a part 121 op. Airline safety record in the public's eyes will be weighed by some and they will want to show something was done about this. this will be raised:

"investigation conducted as per FAA Order 2150.3b (compliance and Enforcement), the Order (Appendix B, Para B-2-d-6) that calls for a 180 suspension of the pilot's certificate for FAR Part 121 PICs who land at the wrong airport."

"carelessly and recklessly endangered the lives of all their passengers and their employers airplane which is, the last time I looked, a violation of FAR 91.13. "

Not trying to take sides, but it's not going to be easy for them.

Best,

Dave
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Not trying to take sides, but it's not going to be easy for them.

Best,

Dave
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True, but this is one of those things were union representation helps greatly. Also pilot history and the details that come out in the investigation come into play.

You mentioned earlier Dave that the captains in the LGA and BUR accidents were canned by SWA, but those were more than innocent errors. In both of those cases there was blatant disregard for safety and in the LGA accident, there was apparently some history with that particular captain.

Contrast that with the Delta guys that landed on the taxiway at ATL back in late 09/early '10. They received the standard suspension and were then back flying the line with DAL 6 months later.

I don't know how unforgiving Southwest management is, but as much as I dislike the current leadership, everything I have heard on the street is that SWA takes care of its pilots.
 
I recently had a conversation with a retired pilot who had worked on his airline's ASAP program. He said that he told the pilots that if you end up on CNN you've taken it to another level because now the public knows and everyone from the airline to the FAA and even the union is in CYA mode.
 
Everskyward said:
I recently had a conversation with a retired pilot who had worked on his airline's ASAP program. He said that he told the pilots that if you end up on CNN you've taken it to another level because now the public knows and everyone from the airline to the FAA and even the union is in CYA mode.
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Sounds about right. As far as the SWA crew, IMO what determines whether they have a job after this or not is HOW they got into the situation. The investigation will reveal the details. Hopefully they become public. The fact that no one was hurt and no metal was bent will help them.

They were about 100' from a total disaster, though.
 
Can you imagine one of us sitting in the 'back' with our iPad and Foreflight going - on descent into the wrong airport. . . . omg.

"hey, wait, hey HEY! we're landing at the wrong airport!! Hey HEY HEYYY!!!
 
Part of the issue in my mind is the passengers statement that the captain made a PA saying, "Welcome to Branson". Only after that time did the crew realize they were at the wrong airport. If that PA really happened, they are really in trouble. No chance of saying they realized they were at the wrong airport on very short final, but a go around would have been more risky than landing kind of thing. Instead that would show they really had NO clue where they were, had no visual perception of the airport at any time, only that they almost overran.

Maybe they were both "engrossed" in looking at their laptops like the Minneapolis guys?:wink2:
 
Alexb2000 said:
Part of the issue in my mind is the passengers statement that the captain made a PA saying, "Welcome to Branson".
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Both airports serve Branson.

Only after that time did the crew realize they were at the wrong airport.
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My opinion is that they knew right away.

If that PA really happened, they are really in trouble. No chance of saying they realized they were at the wrong airport on very short final, but a go around would have been more risky than landing kind of thing.
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I don't follow the logic here. And for what it is worth, a go around is not a risky maneuver in most cases. Certainly not in this case. A go around can be initiated at any time, up to and including touchdown if the thrust reversers have not been engaged.

Maybe they were both "engrossed" in looking at their laptops like the Minneapolis guys?:wink2:
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:rolleyes:
 
Remember the NWA airliner that landed in Brussels instead of Frankfurt? I think it was NW 52...
 
Fearless Tower said:
True, but this is one of those things were union representation helps greatly. Also pilot history and the details that come out in the investigation come into play.

You mentioned earlier Dave that the captains in the LGA and BUR accidents were canned by SWA, but those were more than innocent errors. In both of those cases there was blatant disregard for safety and in the LGA accident, there was apparently some history with that particular captain.

Contrast that with the Delta guys that landed on the taxiway at ATL back in late 09/early '10. They received the standard suspension and were then back flying the line with DAL 6 months later.

I don't know how unforgiving Southwest management is, but as much as I dislike the current leadership, everything I have heard on the street is that SWA takes care of its pilots.
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We're in violent agreement. A fellow that was a regulator for many years brought up the considerations I posted. Not within company control. I hope it does in fact work out for them.

Best,

Dave
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Both airports serve Branson.



My opinion is that they knew right away.



I don't follow the logic here. And for what it is worth, a go around is not a risky maneuver in most cases. Certainly not in this case. A go around can be initiated at any time, up to and including touchdown if the thrust reversers have not been engaged.



:rolleyes:
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You're an airline pilot, would you make that PA knowing you were at the wrong airport? Simply put unless it was said tongue-in-cheek, which I doubt, it seems like a strange thing to say after something like that.

I was only looking for an example of some possible reasons to continue the landing. If there isn't one, well, then they couldn't have known, which goes to my earlier point. Which means I don't follow your logic that they knew.
 
Alexb2000 said:
You're an airline pilot, would you make that PA knowing you were at the wrong airport?
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Well, all we have is a passenger report of a PA announcement being made. We don't know exactly WHAT was said.

If there isn't one, well, then they couldn't have known, which goes to my earlier point. Which means I don't follow your logic that they knew.
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Well, they obviously didn't know they were landing at the wrong airport until after they had landed. How much time that actually took, I don't have a clue but it couldn't have been more than a minute.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Well, all we have is a passenger report of a PA announcement being made. We don't know exactly WHAT was said.
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We also don't know who said it. It is my recollection flying Southwest that it's the flight attendant who welcomes you to [airport name] since it's usually done during the taxi in to the gate. I'm pretty sure pilots are not supposed to be doing PAs at that point (when they are moving on the ground) as it's still part of sterile cockpit.

FAR 121.542 / FAR 135.100--Flight Crew Member Duties

(a) No certificate holder shall require, nor may any flight crew member perform any duties during a critical phase of flight except those duties required for the safe operation of the aircraft. Duties such as company required calls made for non-safety related purposes as ordering galley supplies and confirming passenger connections, announcements made to passengers promoting the air carrier or pointing out sights of interest and filling out company payroll and related records are not required for the safe operation of the aircraft.

(b) No flight crew member may engage in, nor may any pilot in command permit, any activity during a critical phase of flight which could distract any flight crew member from the performance of his or her duties or which could interfere in any way with the proper conduct of those duties. Activities such as eating meals, engaging in non-essential conversations within the cockpit and non-essential communications between the cabin and cockpit crews, and reading publications not related to the proper conduct of the flight are not required for the safe operation of the aircraft.

(c) For the purposes of this section, critical phase of flight involves all ground operations involving taxi, takeoff and landing, and all other flight operations conducted below 10,000 feet, except cruise flight.

Note: Taxi is defined as "movement of an airplane under its own power on the surface of an airport."
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Everskyward said:
We also don't know who said it. It is my recollection flying Southwest that it's the flight attendant who welcomes you to [airport name] since it's usually done during the taxi in to the gate. I'm pretty sure pilots are not supposed to be doing PAs at that point (when they are moving on the ground) as it's still part of sterile cockpit.
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That makes the most sense. The passengers probably just thought it was the captain.
 
Dave Sicilia[no said:
As pilots, we're all sympathetic and can see how this can happen
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I guess I'm in the minority but I really can't. I've flown into both airports numerous times and they look nothing alike. The surroundings look nothing alike. The terminals are on opposite sides of the field. One is twice as long as the other.

And, maybe most importantly, on short final one can clearly see that PLK is labeled "12" and BBG "14". But maybe it was too late by then to do anything except a brake check since large plane have far more inertial momentum.
 
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Everskyward said:
It's not that difficult to spot a beacon or a runway you think is the correct airport and go for it only to find out that you were wrong. I've never landed at the wrong airport but I've had moments of confusion.
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I was on night downwind to the helipad at Huntsville Texas Memorial Hospital Helipad before I realized the airport was a few miles up the road… I'm not a helo pilot….

White and yellow look an awful lot alike at a distance and green is kinda dim… thats what I was thinking when I acquired the beacon… this was 14-15 years ago when the rental fleet didn't have GPS's in it as a rule…
 
RotorAndWing said:
Do we know how many times the crew of the SWA 737 have flown into this airport?
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What difference does that make, really?

Before I go into a new airport, like I did last Saturday, I check it out on google maps, which give ma a very good aerial visual of what to expect. I also check out any nearby airfields to see what they look like from the air.

In other words, I do my due diligence.

While their "system" may be far removed from mine, still, I would expect no less---and, in fact, far more---from a "professional" pilot.
 
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timwinters said:
What difference does that make, really?

Before I go into a new airport, like I did last Saturday, I check it out on google maps, which give ma a very good aerial visual of what to expect. I also check out any nearby airfields to see what they look like from the air.

In other words, I do my due diligence.

While their "system" may be far removed from mine, still, I would expect no less---and in fact far more---from a "professional" pilot.
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who has time to do that? Crew Scheduling sends me where ever - and where ever is where I go . . . who cares if I've never been there - the guy next to me has. :lol::lol::D:D
 
comanchepilot said:
who has time to do that? Crew Scheduling sends me where ever - and where ever is where I go . . . who cares if I've never been there - the guy next to me has. :lol::lol::D:D
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So, are you telling me that you never prepare for court?

Or, are you being tongue in cheek...can't tell for sure!
 
RotorAndWing said:
Do we know how many times the crew of the SWA 737 have flown into this airport?
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This is a very good question since the arrival was still in daytime so if the surroundings of both airports are so different as someone stated above the error, specially in daytime VMC conditions is harder to grasp if they flew on this route before.
 
timwinters said:
So, are you telling me that you never prepare for court?

Or, are you being tongue in cheek...can't tell for sure!
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I fly to places I've never been before without Googling it or doing anything but looking at the chart and AFD, that's the way I learned back in the Pre Internet days.
 
Henning said:
I fly to places I've never been before without Googling it or doing anything but looking at the chart and AFD, that's the way I learned back in the Pre Internet days.
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That's your choice, but we're no longer in pre-internet days. I didn't "learn" that way either, but it's a very good tool that's available to me today.
 
timwinters said:
That's your choice, but we're no longer in pre-internet days. I didn't "learn" that way either, but it's a very good tool that's available to me today.
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I also have avionics, both fixed and portable, that for some reason aren't available to airline pilots. Perhaps someone can explain to me why that is. :dunno:
 
timwinters said:
What difference does that make, really?
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So the Investigators need only focus on one item? How can you determine the cause if you don't examine the various pieces of the event?


timwinters said:
Before I go into a new airport, like I did last Saturday, I check it out on google maps, which give ma a very good aerial visual of what to expect. I also check out any nearby airfields to see what they look like from the air.

In other words, I do my due diligence.

While their "system" may be far removed from mine, still, I would expect no less---and, in fact, far more---from a "professional" pilot.
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And you know, without a doubt, this was not done?

Accidents are a chain of events, not one sole source. I posted in another thread this:




OK, I'll play along.

1) they had to be not be utilizing or paying attention to the GPS

Unknown at this point.

2) they had a visual approach, but they still could have had the localizer frequency set, but did not

Unknown at this point.

3) The tower at Branson either did not have radar surveillance, or if they did, the controller was not paying attention

Unknown at this point.

4) the pilot not flying did not pick up on the error

Unknown at this point.

5) someone in the last 15 minutes during the approach just happened to activate the pilot controlled lighting at Clark field on 122.7.

Unknown at this point.


The "Swiss Cheese Model" also known as "cumulative act effect" was developed by James Reason and Dante Orlandella (University of Manchester).

There is a lot written on it and I spent a great deal of time using it and doing analysis as part of Aviation Safety at the MMAC in OKC (FAA Academy)

In order to do an analysis you have to start with facts, not speculation. Speculation will only skew the results.

We need to know the following:

Aircraft make and model? I realize it was a B-737 but which variant? How was the aircraft equipped?

Any MEL/CDL items in effect at the time of the flight?

SWA procedures for approach at night (visual)?

Duties of PF/PNF during approach (SWA procedures)?

Briefing. Was there an approach briefing detailing the arrival and approach? Where fixes identified, verified on the chart as well as the FMS? Was the NAV accuracy verified on the FMS? What is the maximum drift allowed? Where the Navaids hard tuned or where they auto tuned? Was the airport diagram referenced in the briefing pertaining to approach lighting, landing aids and exiting the runway? How were the respective ND's and PFD's configured for the approach?

ATC. What altitude does radar coverage go down to? Does the tower at Branson have a scope? Did any controllers notice the aircraft was off course? Was the crew asked to verify position?

Human Factors? How long had the crew been on duty? Was this their first?second?third?forth? sector of the day and what day was the trip sequence in (first, second, third, forth?) How much sleep did the crew have in the previous 24 hours? 36 hours? 48 hours? Was there a change in their schedules? Recency of flight (day or night) into this airport for either crewmember?

What do the Captain and FO's training records look like? Any problem areas?

Any other carriers or SWA had previous problems with this airport in the past? Ongoing issues?

This is just a small sampling of questions just to begin the process. I don't think anyone here (unless someone from the FAA or NTSB working the investigation) has these answers yet.
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I know using facts is not as fun as speculating but if one truly wants to know what happened then facts have to be used and analyzed.
 
timwinters said:
What difference does that make, really?

Before I go into a new airport, like I did last Saturday, I check it out on google maps, which give ma a very good aerial visual of what to expect. I also check out any nearby airfields to see what they look like from the air.

In other words, I do my due diligence.

While their "system" may be far removed from mine, still, I would expect no less---and, in fact, far more---from a "professional" pilot.
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comanchepilot said:
who has time to do that? Crew Scheduling sends me where ever - and where ever is where I go . . . who cares if I've never been there - the guy next to me has. :lol::lol::D:D
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You joke, the first time I flew from Tokyo to Singapore, or even been to Singapore, was the other guy's first trip to Singapore.
 
Henning said:
I also have avionics, both fixed and portable, that for some reason aren't available to airline pilots.
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True, but that doesn't compromise their ability to perform independent pre-flight due diligence like any "professional" should.

i.e. That's a red herring.
 
timwinters said:
True, but that doesn't compromise their ability to perform independent pre-flight due diligence like any "professional" should.

i.e. That's a red herring.
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Again, please show us where it was discovered they failed to do this? Are you privy to the investigation? Do you actually have any facts??
 
timwinters said:
True, but that doesn't compromise their ability to perform independent pre-flight due diligence like any "professional" should.

i.e. That's a red herring.
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Where do you find a Google Earth night image of the area? Looking at a regular sectional would likely have been more telling since they would have seen the city lights don't correspond with the proper airport. Do airline pilots get issued sectionals?
 
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