Southeast twin pilots

What is their plan for using GA? According to CNN, the Coast Guard and Navy are still actively searching. Sounds like a potential nightmare unless there is real good coordination.
 
Cant say I know the plan but there is someone actively coordinating GA. The search area is off the coast of Georgia now.

According to USCG they have an expected survival of 4-5 days. They likely went in the water Friday afternoon. A yeti cooler and life jackets were missing from the boat so it is definitely possible they are still alive. You have to think if they were headed for the bahamas that cooler was stocked with drinks.
 
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Joe Namath (yes, that Broadway Joe) is their neighbor. He put up $100K couple days ago.
 
Fearless Tower said:
What is their plan for using GA? According to CNN, the Coast Guard and Navy are still actively searching. Sounds like a potential nightmare unless there is real good coordination.
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Potential nightmare that ends with more than 2 dead kids, IMO. Untrained people doing a search well out over the ocean, no chance of anything going wrong there. :mad2:
 
Unless you're familiar with the National Incident Management System and SAR operations using standard grid systems, you'll be more of a hindrance than a help.
 
You have to let the professional organizations due the search,untill they give it up. They keep expanding the search area,so they still have hope.
 
Very sad situation, I hope they are OK! One report said they were heading to the Bahamas and another said they were supposed to stay inside the inlet. The Atlantic is a big place for two 14 year old boys in a small boat. :eek:
 
The, that's a tough search in warm water, makes FLIR very ineffective.
 
From what I understand 20 private aircraft searched today. No flaming death or incidents. Sorry KScessnapilot

As Henning mentioned IR is ineffective and so is radar. Really the only effective aircraft searches are going to be visual at 500ft or less and maybe 100-150 knots. The CG and navy are not well equipped. Choppers have limited range and can't spend that much time searching. Jets and turboprops burn a lot of fuel at those speeds/altitudes
 
N747JB said:
Very sad situation, I hope they are OK! One report said they were heading to the Bahamas and another said they were supposed to stay inside the inlet. The Atlantic is a big place for two 14 year old boys in a small boat. :eek:
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John the story is that these two 14 year olds have been boating/fishing all their lives. Been offshore, to the Bahamas etc... (With their parents)

Last Friday they had permission from their parents to take the boat fishing but they were not supposed to go out of the inlet into the ocean. Well they were last seen buying $110 worth of fuel Friday afternoon and apparently texted their friends that they were headed for the Bahamas. It's maybe 60nm - 2.5 hour run on a decent weather day.

They left without the proper safety gear (not even a vhf marine radio) and squalls were in the area that afternoon. When they did not return from fishing Friday evening the parents called the USCG and reported them missing.

A search turned up their capsized 20' boat the following day, missing a yeti cooler and life jackets. If the kids are floating with the cooler and life jackets they could still be alive. USCG gave them 4-5 days. Tomorrow is day 5.
 
The wildcard on survival here is the food factor... them being food, not needing it.
 
Or, they may survive for 10 days. It's a big ocean out there. Hoping for the best outcome.
 
Henning said:
The wildcard on survival here is the food factor... them being food, not needing it.
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Yep. But, there have been many cases of people floating for days and getting rescued without becoming shark food.
 
dell30rb said:
Yep. But, there have been many cases of people floating for days and getting rescued without becoming shark food.
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Oh yeah, in that water temp, if they stay in the Gulf Stream and have a cooler of drinks with them, they could likely go a couple weeks.
 
I'm sure they are experienced boaters and fishermen, but still at 14, I would want them on a fairly short leash. :redface: My oldest son is 21, got his captains license last year and has been on boats since he was 7 or 8. We have a 29 foot twin engine center console that he runs and has run it since he was 14 or so. The Bahamas story may have been two 14 year old boys being boys, but it makes me sick to think they were out in bad weather. :(
The safety gear and marine radio part is very troubling, I don't wear a PFD while boating, but I have plenty of life jackets and PDF's on both boats! And a working radio is a MUST for anyone venturing outside of a harbor or inlet in the Atlantic, so is an emergency location device. :nono:
Lot's of blame to go around, I just pray they are found alive!
dell30rb said:
John the story is that these two 14 year olds have been boating/fishing all their lives. Been offshore, to the Bahamas etc... (With their parents)

Last Friday they had permission from their parents to take the boat fishing but they were not supposed to go out of the inlet into the ocean. Well they were last seen buying $110 worth of fuel Friday afternoon and apparently texted their friends that they were headed for the Bahamas. It's maybe 60nm - 2.5 hour run on a decent weather day.

They left without the proper safety gear (not even a vhf marine radio) and squalls were in the area that afternoon. When they did not return from fishing Friday evening the parents called the USCG and reported them missing.

A search turned up their capsized 20' boat the following day, missing a yeti cooler and life jackets. If the kids are floating with the cooler and life jackets they could still be alive. USCG gave them 4-5 days. Tomorrow is day 5.
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I know they grew up with their sea legs, but I can't imagine taking on water that big as an 14yr old. Sure, I have no problem letting a well-seasoned 14-16yr old run a boat on a regular inland lake, but they have relatively few ways to get into trouble. However, I doubt I'd let one boat out into the gulf, the Great Lakes, or any other large body of water. Just too many unknowns when the tides/weather pops up.
 
SoonerAviator said:
I know they grew up with their sea legs, but I can't imagine taking on water that big as an 14yr old. Sure, I have no problem letting a well-seasoned 14-16yr old run a boat on a regular inland lake, but they have relatively few ways to get into trouble. However, I doubt I'd let one boat out into the gulf, the Great Lakes, or any other large body of water. Just too many unknowns when the tides/weather pops up.
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No difference. Turn west and you hit land. There is no difference in hazard or difficulty between a lake or an ocean in a coastal context. This is a safe and simple coast to navigate, no worries sending a couple prepared 14 year olds out.

Problem comes in at the Gulf Stream when the wind stars blowing with a northerly component. The Gulf Stream is going to be running between 2.5-4 kts to the north. When the wind comes out of the north, then the wind and current are against each other and this causes "stacking". The waves in the Gulf Stream are often 2-3 times the height they are outside of it, and they can be steep and breaking. That is how you get capsized, you get sideways to a breaking wave.

Reports I heard is it was a single engine boat with a questionable engine. I didn't hear about a kicker. Even a 15hp kicker will allow you to drive the waves and get back to safe water. If you can't make steerage way though, your're screwed in the Gulf Stream in a boat that size when a strong squall blows out of the north.
 
No doubt they were unprepared. Before anyone blames the parents, they did not have permission to take the boat out of the inlet into the ocean.

14 is a reasonable age to be able to use a boat like that. I was 14 when my dad finally let me take our 23' pro line out by myself. I had a little jon boat when i was 10. I used to take my chocolate lab out for rides in it. (i'm 28 now and still have that boat! it's 3.3hp evinrude is still running like a champ)
 
Henning said:
. . .Problem comes in at the Gulf Stream when the wind stars blowing with a northerly component. The Gulf Stream is going to be running between 2.5-4 kts to the north. When the wind comes out of the north, then the wind and current are against each other and this causes "stacking". The waves in the Gulf Stream are often 2-3 times the height they are outside of it, and they can be steep and breaking. That is how you get capsized, you get sideways to a breaking wave . . .
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That was my point. Those are issues I generally wouldn't worry about on most inland lakes or the ICWs. You're almost always in sight of both shorelines, and 3-4' whitecaps are about the most aggressive waters you'll face. The gulf/ocean currents can be difficult for amateur boaters, especially a couple of barely-teens. I hope they are found safe, but if they really decided to try and make a run outside of the inlet, it'd probably deter me from ever letting them run out by themselves until they were legal adults.

I will admit that I have very limited experience in the gulf/open water except within a few miles of shore and most of it on Jetskis.
 
The Gulf Stream is a ways offshore though, typically out of sight of land from a small boat. You can't blame the parents for letting them take the boat even nearby offshore. As long as you aren't in the Gulf Stream, 3-4'ers are generally all you'll see offshore here as well.
 
I need to get a picture of the kid that lives across the canal from us in Destin, he looks to be about 7. He has a 6-7 foot long plastic boat with pretty high sides and an electric trolling motor! Cutest thing you've ever seen, it looks like a bathtub he runs it like a champ! :yes: One day I looked out and he had two young ladies with him cruising up and down the canal! The next day he was on a bigger inflatable with his mom or big sister. They couldn't get it to crank and were drifting towards my dock, I went down the help them. He took over and got it started and drove off following their big Hatteras! :D

dell30rb said:
No doubt they were unprepared. Before anyone blames the parents, they did not have permission to take the boat out of the inlet into the ocean.

14 is a reasonable age to be able to use a boat like that. I was 14 when my dad finally let me take our 23' pro line out by myself. I had a little jon boat when i was 10. I used to take my chocolate lab out for rides in it. (i'm 28 now and still have that boat! it's 3.3hp evinrude is still running like a champ)
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dell30rb said:
From what I understand 20 private aircraft searched today. No flaming death or incidents. Sorry KScessnapilot

As Henning mentioned IR is ineffective and so is radar. Really the only effective aircraft searches are going to be visual at 500ft or less and maybe 100-150 knots. The CG and navy are not well equipped. Choppers have limited range and can't spend that much time searching. Jets and turboprops burn a lot of fuel at those speeds/altitudes
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Interesting observation. The primary duty of the Coast Guard is search and rescue, and they are very well equipped for the task. Their helicopters routinely fly 200 miles offshore on searches or to pick up medical cases from ships at sea.

"Overview:
The MH-60 is an all weather, medium-range helicopter (specialized for search and recovery) similar to the Navy MH-60R and MH-60S Seahawk, with its basic roots in the Army H-60 Blackhawk. The service began to operate the MH-60J in 1990 as a replacement to the now-retired HH-3F Pelican, and it is typically operated by a crew of four. The last unit operating the MH-60J is CGAS Clearwater. They are currently completing the MH-60J to MH-60T transition which will be completed in May 2013.

There are 42 total MH-60s in the Coast Guard air fleet, with 35 in operational use, most of which have undergone the MH-60T conversion since 2008. Seven H-60s are at various levels of depot maintenance and MH-60T upgrade at the Aviation Logistics Center in Elizabeth City, NC. The MH-60T upgrade consist of a Rockwell Collins Common Avionics Architecture System (CAAS). CAAS is an integrated "glass" cockpit which provides updated avionics and integrated Electro-optical Sensor System with recording capability via a removable memory module. CAAS also replaces legacy radios with the AN/ARC 210, ARC 220 and the RT-5000/SAR radios.

The MH-60 is located at seven Coast Guard and ATC Mobile Air Stations, equipped with sensors and equipment for search and rescue missions. Four H-60 units Maintain Airborne Use of Force (AUF) and all of the MH-60s are AUF equipped.

Air Stations
ATC Mobile, Alabama
CGAS Kodiak, Alaska
CGAS Sitka, Alaska
CGAS San Diego, California
CGAS Clearwater, Florida
CGAS Cape Cod, Massachusetts
CGAS Elizabeth City, NC
CGAS Astoria, OR
Specifications
Power Plant
Two 1,560 shp General Electric T700-GE-401C turboshaft engines
Performance
Max Speed: 180 knots
Service Ceiling: 18,000 ft
Range: 700 nautical miles
Weight
Empty: 14,500 lbs
Gross Weight: 21,884 lbs
Armament
Single 7.62mm M240J machine gun
7.62mm shoulder-fired precision weapon
Dimensions
Rotor Diameter: 53ft 8in
Length: 64ft 10in
Height: 17ft
Main Rotor Disc Area: 2,261 sq ft"

Bob Gardner, LCDR USCG (Ret)
 
From another forum

Well a few of us just returned from a day in the air, flying at 500 feet and searching a grid off the Roffers best guesstimate area. It is very taxing on the eyes. A Coast Guard C130 was flying a grid just north of us. We ran the huge current edge where the North and South current meet. We saw an object in the water just below the surface. We could not get a clear view and the C130 was in route to take a look. There are a lot of civilian planes searching all hours of the daylight . Most are being given grids to search to keep it organized. We did nearly 600nm miles today. Hopefully someone had better luck then us.

I think when your behind the scene a little bit ,you will realize just how organized it is. Most of the airspace is restricted around here. The restrictions are being lifted and each grid is given out to specific private plane. If they spot anything of value, there are USGC C130 with high tech camera's moving from sighting to sighting ......They are also flying grids at 500 feet.

The Go Fund Me account is also paying for all fuel search aircraft use.Plus the FBO in Savannah is discounting the fuel a $1.00 a gallon.

So there is a huge coordination behinds the scenes ,that I never knew was there until today !!!
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Bob I suppose I did not think very well before posting that. I also did not know the helicopters had such a range. I'm sure the C130's do a decent job at 500' while burning a **** load of fuel.
 
It's not that they are poorly equipped, it's that the equipment is poor for the search conditions. Basically the water temp makes the greatest technical tool, FLIR, of little use, and the search mode is basically the same as one would have in during Korea-Vietnam, eyes out the window. It's a big ocean and if there are 3' seas or better with whitecaps, finding an individual in the water does not exactly have a stellar record of outcomes.

Alaska and New England where the water is cold, this stuff is awesome, you can spot a person in the water from a pretty good range night or day. I doubt these boys will survive the float to waters that cold.
 
Is there any way we can remove the blow out images of old, unconfirmed, telexes?
 
Been a huge story down here. Everyone on the harbor in Destin is praying they are found.

This quote comes to mind often when I'm on the water and I hope for those that are landlocked it will give you something to ponder. No doubt these boys are committed to the sea, just as I along with many others are, and hopefully will return from it.

“I really don't know why it is that all of us are so committed to the sea, except I think it's because in addition to the fact that the sea changes, and the light changes, and ships change, it's because we all came from the sea. And it is an interesting biological fact that all of us have in our veins the exact same percentage of salt in our blood that exists in the ocean, and, therefore, we have salt in our blood, in our sweat, in our tears. We are tied to the ocean. And when we go back to the sea - whether it is to sail or to watch it - we are going back from whence we came." - John F. Kennedy
 
Seanaldinho said:
Been a huge story down here. Everyone on the harbor in Destin is praying they are found.

This quote comes to mind often when I'm on the water and I hope for those that are landlocked it will give you something to ponder. No doubt these boys are committed to the sea, just as I along with many others are, and hopefully will return from it.

“I really don't know why it is that all of us are so committed to the sea, except I think it's because in addition to the fact that the sea changes, and the light changes, and ships change, it's because we all came from the sea. And it is an interesting biological fact that all of us have in our veins the exact same percentage of salt in our blood that exists in the ocean, and, therefore, we have salt in our blood, in our sweat, in our tears. We are tied to the ocean. And when we go back to the sea - whether it is to sail or to watch it - we are going back from whence we came." - John F. Kennedy
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At sea you learn your place, and significance, in the universe.
 
I understand the authorities are ending the search at sunset today.

If anyone wants to keep going, there is supposed to be a private effort beginning.
 
FormerHangie said:
I understand the authorities are ending the search at sunset today.

If anyone wants to keep going, there is supposed to be a private effort beginning.
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Good luck to them, at this point it's gonna take a lot of luck for a good outcome. They shouldn't have been far from the boat.
 
Henning said:
Good luck to them, at this point it's gonna take a lot of luck for a good outcome. They shouldn't have been far from the boat.
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From what I understand, it really improves chances of rescue if people stay near the boat, even if it has capsized or is otherwise not usable but may still be visible.
 
Zeldman said:
From what I understand, it really improves chances of rescue if people stay near the boat, even if it has capsized or is otherwise not usable but may still be visible.
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You are correct. A boat is a lot more visible than a person in the water. It is much larger and is much more easily seen.
 
Why would they even leave the area of the boat?
 
dans2992 said:
Why would they even leave the area of the boat?
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That may not have been intentional. It's not all that easy to capsize a 19 foot boat, so they must have been facing some rather choppy water. If they got tossed overboard, the boat may have gotten far enough away from them to where they couldn't swim back to it. Unless they could have gotten a line and tied themselves to it, chances are they wouldn't be able to stay with it very long, the wind and waves would act to move the boat faster than it would have moved them.
 
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